353 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

@Sabriana:



You should call him on his lie of omission when you find out. He totally blames you for it, to the point where you are expected to apologize to him. Then, if you do, he acts like a total ass about it, like you owed him that. I've pointed this out before, though, the writers added "Or, you could just be an ass about it" to your dialog choices for a reason. He then gives you the big dump right there in camp, with a -15 approval to boot. So yeah, I don't lick Alistair's boots. I can't imagine why...



Maybe it's because there's no ending where Alistair is a good King, on his own. Somebody is always pulling his strings, whether it's Anora, or the PC or Eamon. Somebody is always in the background, playing puppeteer. He doesn't want to be King, he doesn't want to lead, and right up until the final battle, if you talk to him beforehand, he doesn't want to do it. Regardless of whether he dumps you or not, if you take him to the Archdemon, he takes the killing blow too. "Best King I can be"...

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Sabriana wrote...
The castle and the village are on the verge of total anihilation, but we manage to circumvent it. Reaching the castle, we find out various things, including the fact that Isolde is the initial instigator of all this death and destruction. We give into her wailing, heed Jowan, and go to the tower, even though it is highly illogical. Leaving the demon-boy to his own devices even for a few hours can spell disaster, let alone at least two days. My mage finds her former home in total disarray and on the verge of destruction. Nothing fast going on here. Now she has to hurry, to a)get rid of demon-boy without the mages, and return to the tower asap to help her mates. Time has become an enemy.

She yields to Isolde's plea to sacrifice herself, and to right the wrongs she inflicted on castle and village alike. Yeah, it's blood magic, but as far as my PC knows, she's all out of choices.
Alistair blows up at her like no tomorrow. He berates her for using blood magic, for letting Isolde die, tells her that he owes Eamon more than that. Pardon me? What the heck was she supposed to do? [/qutoe]

So wait...you reached the tower (which took 2 days) which would take you a hour or two to clear, but instead you turned back to Redcliffe before returnign to the tower? Talk about unneccesary trips..4 days..you waste 4 days to help the mages, and mages are VERY powerfull allies.

You were away from redcliffe 4 days...if you helped in the tower it would be..4 days and a few hours? You don gain much, but gamble on the mages tower...so yea.. Not the best decision IMHO.



[quote]
He had nothing to say about it, he made no decisions. It was also he who told my mage that Isolde whined at Eamon so long that he finally dumped his "foster son" into the Chantry in favor of his wife. He also says that Isolde made sure the castle didn't feel like home anymore and that she despised him. What? Hello? What is it that I missed here? Eamon's behavior at finding out is as different from Alistair's as day is from night. [/quote]

It's because isn't thinking about how he hates Isolde, but how Eamon loves her.


[quote]
We come to the end. She makes him king and he has nothing better to do than to dump my mage. For idiotic reasons at that. She's a commoner? So is Anora. Kids? Anora was married for 5 years and has none. Could be her fault, could be Cailan's, but the odds of conceiving with her are as bad/good as they are with my mage. She's a mage. So what, so was Isolde's uncle. To top it off, up comes the "persuade" option of her talking him into being his piece on the side. Say what? Put it where the sun don't shine, dude. Others might be perfectly fine with that, but that's not what my mage envisioned the so-called love of her life would act like.[/quote]

In all respects, two GW's having a child is unheard of. A GW and someone else - difficult, but possible.
Also, he couldn't make you his queen, regardless of how much he wanted to. Ferelden wasn't ready for that

[ejoslin]

I just finished another noble origin where I never romanced Ali, married him, became a very popular ruler (as opposed to an adored bride), told Alistair he was never getting any from my PC, but I'd be trying to have an heir with someone else, then got to the work of rebuilding the Gray Wardens with Zevran. I made different choices in the game, of course, than the first time I did that ending, but that ending was just as satisfying as the first time I did it. Oh, Ali also got to lose his virginity to Morrigan.

I think I have my city elf's revenge for my first play through!

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Wrathra]

robertthebard wrote...

If you do something that you later regret, then the action you took was wrong.  Otherwise you wouldn't regret it.  It may not be wrong in society's view, or it may be, depends on what you did, but if you personally regret it, then it was wrong in your eyes.  The only reason Alistair goes to get drunk, where he can, isn't because he regrets what he did, unless we postulate that what he feels he did wrong was to be a follower, instead of leader, and allowed the PC to lead for the whole game.  There is nothing in the epilog to suggest otherwise, other than claiming he was once a Warden.  Which is amusing in and of itself.  The "...duty that cannot be forsworn" from the Joining ritual means absolutely nothing.  Afterall, it can be forsworn simply because you didn't get to kill one man.

I think you are missing my point. As far as Alistair concerned, he was betrayed by the player.   I cannot sit here and honestly tell you I would not have reacted the same way. If someone killed people I care about, and then I was told by someone else I thought cared about me that I'd have to work with said person, oh f... no.  Don't think so.

I think there should have been an imprisonment option. There wasn't. So off Loghain's head goes.
 
All of this aside, I wouldn't trust Loghain at my back under any circumstances, whereas I trusted Alistair. My choice was clear enough.

robertthebard wrote...
Regarding Alistair's emotional state regarding Duncan's death, and the comparison to cheapening adoption, people adopt children because they want to love the children.  If they are successful at it, the children will feel loved, and will reciprocate that love.  Duncan did not recruit Alistair to be his daddy.  As Alistair explains, Duncan recruited Alistair because his Templar abilities would be useful against darkspawn magic.  This whole adoption theory is a strawman.  Now, if Duncan had adopted Alistair instead of Alistair being sent to the Chantry, we might have something to discuss.  Duncan recruited a grown man into the Wardens, and that grown man assigned emotional attachments that, in any other circumstance, would be viewed as unhealthy.  You see, I don't see giving somebody a 30 year death sentence as being the same thing as adopting.

No it's not a strawman.  Again, I think you are missing my point. Duncan's motivations aren't the issue here. How Alistair feels about Duncan is the issue. Duncan could have thought he looked pretty in his armor  and that was why he recruited him for all I care. Alistair regarded Duncan and the Wardens as his family, and it is Alistair's reactions here that are being debated, not Duncan's motivations. Duncan is dead. Loghain was responsible for the death of Alistair's "family" as far as Alistair is concerned.  

[ejoslin]

Depending on how you play the game, just about anyone can turn on you except your dog, and you don't have to take him along. I've had Wynne try to kill me, Leliana ditch me, Sten attack me -- I've not managed to get Oghrin mad at me, but I think my next play through I'll make sure his love life doesn't go as planned. Everyone in this game seems to have their own line that can't be crossed and their own agenda.

[Sabriana]

See below post. Somehow I managed to do it twice, once as a quote. Pardon my misclick.

Modifié par Sabriana, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, in Ferelden, Wardens are known as traitors to the crown, courtesy of Sophia Dryden.  The only reason they are welcomed at this Landsmeet has to do with a large portion of Ferelden succumbing to the Blight.  This illusion, created largely by Jory and Alistair that being a Grey Warden is some kind of honor is delusional at best.  Wardens are not knights at Arthur's Round Table.  This is made obvious by Duncan's recruitment methods at Highever.  Again, if you want to say that Duncan isn't the quintessential Warden, why the hero worship from Alistair?  Alistair evidently believes he is.

Wardens not respected? Oh, so that's why knights organize tournaments for the honor to be picked and why practicly everyone (before Loghains lies) holds you in high esteem? Aha... makes sense.
The quatermaster, the soldiers, officers, templars, even the reverend mother and the bandits act that way...I see...aha..


Also, you can respect someone o look up to him wihtout wanting to be a pure copy. One of the resons I respect Al is not that he wan't to be like Duncan..He wants to be better than Duncan. He wants to be a better warden, a better person.

Regarding your points, the biggest argument for killing Loghain is that he allowed Alistair's father figure to die.  This suggests a love relationship.  This is the foremost excuse put forth for excusing his outburst at the Landsmeet.  The only reason we are given, through Alistair, is the death of Duncan.  This is all that matters to Alistair, as can be seen through his dialog.  It's funny too, because Loghain's outburst if the Landsmeet decides against him is bad, but Alistair's outburst, if the Landsmeet decides against him is justified, since he didn't get to kill Loghain.  I submit that Loghain didn't get to kill the Grey Wardens, so his outburst is justified too.  If all that's required is not getting to commit murder to justify an action, how is this wrong, other than I really don't see it as being exactly right either.  The decision, after the duel, is left up to the PC.  If the PC decides to spare Loghain, and Alistair tries to take the crown to kill him, which he does, he's only doing it to commit murder, since Loghain's fate has already been decided.  How does this make him any different than Loghain?

While ducans death wouldbe the bigegst motivator, it's not the only one. Cailan, the other wardens, his firends and all the other attrocities a lfactor in. He doesn't have to mention them explicitly.
 
And yes...very different. Al has a legit claim to the throne and didn't ruin the country. Since we're at it, if you loose the Landsmeet, why do YOU fight back? How dare you!!! After all, Loghain fought back, so you're jsut as bad as him....Preposterous...

  It's perfectly acceptable to blackmail a dying man for one of their offspring.

Technicly, you didn't need Duncan to esape. The secret exit was there. Duncan was escorting you and taking you to the king. Noble PC dad asked Duncan to see his sun and wife trough.

[Sabriana]

If Maric can make a commoner a Teyrn, then Alistair can marry a mage. As for kids, like I said, having one is for either one a stretch. Anora has none after 5 years, so to just assume that it was Cailan's fault is silly on his part. Aside from that, but that's not in-game knowledge, he does marry the human noble GW. Hypocrisy much?

My mage couldn't know that it would take a few hours. Total mayhem reigned there, and she knew not what to expect. Aside from that, it is a long quest (maybe the fade made it only seem so), but as far as my mage knew, there was no choice. Even though, she could also not know the outcome. Were all the mages dead? Turned? What happened? It is illogical to assume that she could rescue at least a few mages in no time at all, and have them healthy enough, assemble, get ready, and go to Redcliffe forthwith. Travel time does not equal overall time.
Keep in mind that my mage had no foreknowledge other than the fact that the demon-boy had to be neutralized as fast as possible.

Modifié par Sabriana, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[robertthebard]

Wrathra wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Regarding Alistair's emotional state regarding Duncan's death, and the comparison to cheapening adoption, people adopt children because they want to love the children.  If they are successful at it, the children will feel loved, and will reciprocate that love.  Duncan did not recruit Alistair to be his daddy.  As Alistair explains, Duncan recruited Alistair because his Templar abilities would be useful against darkspawn magic.  This whole adoption theory is a strawman.  Now, if Duncan had adopted Alistair instead of Alistair being sent to the Chantry, we might have something to discuss.  Duncan recruited a grown man into the Wardens, and that grown man assigned emotional attachments that, in any other circumstance, would be viewed as unhealthy.  You see, I don't see giving somebody a 30 year death sentence as being the same thing as adopting.

No it's not a strawman.  Again, I think you are missing my point. Duncan's motivations aren't the issue here. How Alistair feels about Duncan is the issue. Duncan could have thought he looked pretty in his armor  and that was why he recruited him for all I care. Alistair regarded Duncan and the Wardens as his family, and it is Alistair's reactions here that are being debated, not Duncan's motivations. Duncan is dead. Loghain was responsible for the death of Alistair's "family" as far as Alistair is concerned.  

This quote is a strawman:

I don't think anyone is really in position to talk authoritatively about possible strength of another person't emotional attachment, let alone try to make comparisons like this. You don't know how Alistair feels, only how your character feels. To declare he can't possibly feel as strong about someone he doesn't have blood bond with as your character does about their own family is incredibly arrogant. It's also a slap in the face of any person who chooses to adopt another.

Just don't do it.

Source
Duncan did not adopt Alistair, trying to say the two are comparable is a strawman.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
My mage couldn't know that it would take a few hours. Total mayhem reigned there, and she knew not what to expect.

It is a single tower. How long can it take to cross several floors?
You dont' have to clear every room ya know...just get Irwing. In a straight line from bottom to top it takes 3 minutes...but of course, if yo ustop to inspect every door....

[Wrathra]

Sabriana wrote...

If Maric can make a commoner a Teyrn, then Alistair can marry a mage. As for kids, like I said, having one is for either one a stretch. Anora has none after 5 years, so to just assume that it was Cailan's fault is silly. Aside from that, but that's not in-game knowledge, he does marry the human noble GW. Hypocrisy much?

He marries her because she is a human - the daughter of a well respected noble.

I think Alistair's position as king is tenuous at best, and the country is recovering from civil war and a blight.  An elf, or a mage, or a dwarf  would give the alot of people alot of reason to turn on him, because regardless of what the PC did, people are still ignorant, racist buttmunches, and this would give his enemies - because he'll have them, all rulers do - alot of ammunition.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

If Maric can make a commoner a Teyrn, then Alistair can marry a mage. As for kids, like I said, having one is for either one a stretch. Anora has none after 5 years, so to just assume that it was Cailan's fault is silly on his part. Aside from that, but that's not in-game knowledge, he does marry the human noble GW. Hypocrisy much?

My mage couldn't know that it would take a few hours. Total mayhem reigned there, and she knew not what to expect. Aside from that, it is a long quest (maybe the fade made it only seem so), but as far as my mage knew, there was no choice. Even though, she could also not know the outcome. Were all the mages dead? Turned? What happened? It is illogical to assume that she could rescue at least a few mages in no time at all, and have them healthy enough, assemble, get ready, and go to Redcliffe forthwith. Travel time does not equal overall time.
Keep in mind that my mage had no foreknowledge other than the fact that the demon-boy had to be neutralized as fast as possible.

No, because Maric was a very strong ruler, and Alistair is not strong.  The PC was probably the one non-noble that would have been accepted, and had Alistair been strong, he could have forced it through.  But that's not who Alistair is.  There is the king that does do that in the game, and I doubt that any woman player would want him as a romantic interest as you wouldn't be getting the flowers and pretty talk.

That's what's great about Alistair -- he's so very human.  The softness and gentleness are real -- he may not be a good king, but he is a good man.  Make him happy and let him be a gray warden -- it's what he wants, and is what will give his life real purpose.

Edit: With Alistair, though, there's an odd selfishness.  When he dumped his general on the eve of battle, he really gave no thought of how that was endangering everything.  WHO functions properly when just dumped?  But he was selfish enough that he wanted to hurt as little as possible for himself -- he admits that.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:11 .

[Sabriana]

My mage was also human, and his primary concern seems to have been the 'duty and heir' thing. Perhaps there are other lines he speaks due to choices, but that's what my poor mage got.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, in Ferelden, Wardens are known as traitors to the crown, courtesy of Sophia Dryden.  The only reason they are welcomed at this Landsmeet has to do with a large portion of Ferelden succumbing to the Blight.  This illusion, created largely by Jory and Alistair that being a Grey Warden is some kind of honor is delusional at best.  Wardens are not knights at Arthur's Round Table.  This is made obvious by Duncan's recruitment methods at Highever.  Again, if you want to say that Duncan isn't the quintessential Warden, why the hero worship from Alistair?  Alistair evidently believes he is.

Wardens not respected? Oh, so that's why knights organize tournaments for the honor to be picked and why practicly everyone (before Loghains lies) holds you in high esteem? Aha... makes sense.
The quatermaster, the soldiers, officers, templars, even the reverend mother and the bandits act that way...I see...aha..


Also, you can respect someone o look up to him wihtout wanting to be a pure copy. One of the resons I respect Al is not that he wan't to be like Duncan..He wants to be better than Duncan. He wants to be a better warden, a better person.

Regarding your points, the biggest argument for killing Loghain is that he allowed Alistair's father figure to die.  This suggests a love relationship.  This is the foremost excuse put forth for excusing his outburst at the Landsmeet.  The only reason we are given, through Alistair, is the death of Duncan.  This is all that matters to Alistair, as can be seen through his dialog.  It's funny too, because Loghain's outburst if the Landsmeet decides against him is bad, but Alistair's outburst, if the Landsmeet decides against him is justified, since he didn't get to kill Loghain.  I submit that Loghain didn't get to kill the Grey Wardens, so his outburst is justified too.  If all that's required is not getting to commit murder to justify an action, how is this wrong, other than I really don't see it as being exactly right either.  The decision, after the duel, is left up to the PC.  If the PC decides to spare Loghain, and Alistair tries to take the crown to kill him, which he does, he's only doing it to commit murder, since Loghain's fate has already been decided.  How does this make him any different than Loghain?

While ducans death wouldbe the bigegst motivator, it's not the only one. Cailan, the other wardens, his firends and all the other attrocities a lfactor in. He doesn't have to mention them explicitly.
 
And yes...very different. Al has a legit claim to the throne and didn't ruin the country. Since we're at it, if you loose the Landsmeet, why do YOU fight back? How dare you!!! After all, Loghain fought back, so you're jsut as bad as him....Preposterous...

  It's perfectly acceptable to blackmail a dying man for one of their offspring.

Technicly, you didn't need Duncan to esape. The secret exit was there. Duncan was escorting you and taking you to the king. Noble PC dad asked Duncan to see his sun and wife trough.

Selective memory FTW.  Trademark of the Alistair fan club.

"I can do as you ask, but I must ask something of you in return".

"Anything".

"I came here looking for a recruit, and the Blight demands I leave with one".

Where is this dialog from?  It's roughly paraphrased, but accurate enough.  This is Duncan, talking to Bryce Cousland in the Noble origin finale.  What is that he's doing there?  Oh ho, he's blackmailing your dying father to make you a grey warden, not take you to the King.  Please don't refute me with half truths, or outright lies, or try to ignore story lines to fit what you are saying.  You already know I will call you on it.

I'd also like to know where you saw that Alistair wanted to be a better Warden than Duncan.  Everything in Alistair's dialog indicates that he wants to emulate Duncan, if it's not crying about him being dead.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

My mage was also human, and his primary concern seems to have been the 'duty and heir' thing. Perhaps there are other lines he speaks due to choices, but that's what my poor mage got.

Heh, he claimed my noble dwarf was not noble.  Ali character seems to see others as he wants to see them, not as they really are.

[Wrathra]

sigh. Double post.

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[Wrathra]

robertthebard wrote...

This quote is a strawman:

I don't think anyone is really in position to talk authoritatively about possible strength of another person't emotional attachment, let alone try to make comparisons like this. You don't know how Alistair feels, only how your character feels. To declare he can't possibly feel as strong about someone he doesn't have blood bond with as your character does about their own family is incredibly arrogant. It's also a slap in the face of any person who chooses to adopt another.

Just don't do it.

Source
Duncan did not adopt Alistair, trying to say the two are comparable is a strawman.

That is not my quote, that is TMP7704's. Please go back and read MY posts. I did not say Duncan adopted Alistair.  I never ever stated Duncan adopted Alistair. I don't give a damn what Duncan thinks of Alistair.
Duncan is wormfood.

I said Alistair considered Duncan and the Warden's his family. You are being deliberately obtuse, methinks.

Alistair's feelings for Duncan are the issue. Period.  Duncan's motivations are irrelevent.  Alistair's feelings for Duncan are what make Alistair mourn him the way he does, and react the way he does.  There is no simpler way to state this.

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[ejoslin]

Wrathra wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This quote is a strawman:

I don't think anyone is really in position to talk authoritatively about possible strength of another person't emotional attachment, let alone try to make comparisons like this. You don't know how Alistair feels, only how your character feels. To declare he can't possibly feel as strong about someone he doesn't have blood bond with as your character does about their own family is incredibly arrogant. It's also a slap in the face of any person who chooses to adopt another.

Just don't do it.

Source
Duncan did not adopt Alistair, trying to say the two are comparable is a strawman.

That is not my quote, that is TMP7704's. Please go back and read MY posts. I did not say Duncan adopted Alistair.  I never ever stated Duncan
adopted Alistair. I don't give a damn what Duncan thinks of Alistair.
Duncan is wormfood.

I said Alistair considered Duncan and the \\\\\\\\warden's his family. You are being deliberately obtuse, methinks.

Alistair's feelings for Duncan are the issue. Period.  Duncan's motivations are irrelevent.  Alistair's feelings for Duncan are what make Alistair mourn him the way he does, and react the way he does.  There is no simpler way to state this.

Which is fine, except GWs are supposed to put personal feelings aside.  Duncan I would bet anything would have been not happy with the way Alistair acted towards his memory.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[Wrathra]

ejoslin wrote...


Which is fine, except GWs are supposed to put personal feelings aside.  Duncan I would be anything would have been not happy with the way Alistair acted towards his memory.

Duncan's feelings are irrelevent. Duncan is dead.  I'm quite sure Duncan would have been livid with Alistair.  Alistair still behaved in a very human way, whether we like it or not.  I can't say I would not have acted the same way. I am honest enough with myself to admit that.

GW's are human. They act as humans do. We don't have on/off switches for our emotions.

edit: since i can't get my thoughts together in one post. sigh.

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:19 .

[robertthebard]

Wrathra wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This quote is a strawman:

I don't think anyone is really in position to talk authoritatively about possible strength of another person't emotional attachment, let alone try to make comparisons like this. You don't know how Alistair feels, only how your character feels. To declare he can't possibly feel as strong about someone he doesn't have blood bond with as your character does about their own family is incredibly arrogant. It's also a slap in the face of any person who chooses to adopt another.

Just don't do it.

Source
Duncan did not adopt Alistair, trying to say the two are comparable is a strawman.

That is not my quote, that is TMP7704's. Please go back and read MY posts. I did not say Duncan adopted Alistair.  I never ever stated Duncan adopted Alistair. I don't give a damn what Duncan thinks of Alistair.
Duncan is wormfood.

I said Alistair considered Duncan and the Warden's his family. You are being deliberately obtuse, methinks.

Alistair's feelings for Duncan are the issue. Period.  Duncan's motivations are irrelevent.  Alistair's feelings for Duncan are what make Alistair mourn him the way he does, and react the way he does.  There is no simpler way to state this.

I never attributed the quote to you, and I seperated my thoughts trying to reply to more than one post at a time by making them seperate paragraphs, and indicating my change of direction.  This does not, however, change the fact that stating recruiting someone into the grey wardens == adoption.  They are not the same thing.

Regarding obtuse, have you had anyone that you considered family killed?  I have.  I am not typing this from a prison library where I plan to be for the rest of my life because I took one of the many sharp pointy things on my wall and killed the guy that killed my "brother".  I grew up with this man, and was the only biker at his funeral on a Honda, and he wouldn't have had it any other way.  I have been through in reality what Alistair has been through in game.  I have watched how devastated my "brother's" family was, and yet, despite having the means, and the skills, I did not go kill that guy, even though he got probation for putting a bullet through my "brother's" head, in front of his wife.  This is, however, the expected response?  It's interesting to note that of the 15 or so people that I grew up with, only 6 of us have lived into our 40's.  None of us thought we'd make it past our 30's.

[Wrathra]

robertthebard wrote...

I never attributed the quote to you, and I seperated my thoughts trying to reply to more than one post at a time by making them seperate paragraphs, and indicating my change of direction.  This does not, however, change the fact that stating recruiting someone into the grey wardens == adoption.  They are not the same thing.

The way the post appeared seemed like you were using the quote to respond to my arguments. Since that wasn't my argument, I wanted to point that out.  That still appears to be your intention. If it is not, I apologize. 

robertthebard wrote...
Regarding obtuse, have you had anyone that you considered family killed?  I have.  I am not typing this from a prison library where I plan to be for the rest of my life because I took one of the many sharp pointy things on my wall and killed the guy that killed my "brother".  I grew up with this man, and was the only biker at his funeral on a Honda, and he wouldn't have had it any other way.  I have been through in reality what Alistair has been through in game.  I have watched how devastated my "brother's" family was, and yet, despite having the means, and the skills, I did not go kill that guy, even though he got probation for putting a bullet through my "brother's" head, in front of his wife.  This is, however, the expected response?  It's interesting to note that of the 15 or so people that I grew up with, only 6 of us have lived into our 40's.  None of us thought we'd make it past our 30's.

I am sorry for whatever you have gone through. Truly. I would not wish that on anyone. 

However, applying the rules of our society to a fantasy one isn't really the way to go here, but I do see what you are trying to say.  

For myself, I'm not dead, but I myself have been the victim of a terrible crime, one that is frankly nobody's business except my husband and I.  And if you told me I had to deal with this man in any capacity after what he did to me I'd tell you to go f... yourself. And if you told me I had to work with this person...no. Absolutely not.    In my case, he died in his sleep before the law could do its work, so in my opinion, he got off easy.  There was no justice.

Did I want to see this man dead then? Honestly -  there were times I did, yes.  Do I still feel that way now? No. I do not.  But I have had years to heal and come to terms. Wisdom with age and all that.

My point is not to play who has had it worse - my point is we are human, we react differently to adversity.  I empathize with Alistair's reaction.  The game was scripted so that there were only two options. Imprisonment would have been the way to go, it was not an option.  But as far as I am concerned, letting Loghain join you was completely unacceptable, and the only way out of it was to kill him.  So I killed him.

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Sabriana]

The funny thing is that I understand all of that. The detractors and the fans. I was so disappointed in the character that I can't bring myself to even bring him along on subsequent play-thoughs, let alone romance him. I did try, several times, but it never worked, I just despise him too much for what I know he will turn into at the end. I will try again, have him duel Loghain, and relinquish the crown to Anora to stay a happy GW. If that's a possible outcome, I'm not sure, I have to read up on that. But that's about the only way I could use him in a play-through again. I don't know if I could have my PC romance him though, that would be too much perhaps.

I take a very, very dim view on betrayal, be it Loghain's or Alistair's. Both are blinded and see only that what they wish to see. They feel a certain way, and expect everyone to follow suit. It's my personal viewpoint on what I like/dislike, and I just can't forgive Alistair turning his back on all of Ferelden because of one person's decision.

You can also look at it this way: Loghain's betrayal costs many, many lives. His letting Tevinter slavers run rampant in the alienage is utterly disgusting. His paranoia about Orlais is extreme to say the least, but Alistair's behavior is equally deplorable. Only GWs can defeat the archdemon. Alistair knows that very well. There are a grand total of 3 in Ferelden. If the GWs fail, not only many lives, but all life ceases. Utter horror would reign. Broodmother anyone?

Yet he leaves. I can understand having personal issues, but he doesn't fight at all. Not in the group (which I would completely understand), and not with other contingents. I see Eamon, Irwin, Teagan, and a few others, but no Alistair. This fact alone devalues everything that the PC and he struggled and fought for, and what Duncan died for.

[Wrathra]

Sabriana wrote...

The funny thing is that I understand all of that. The detractors and the fans. I was so disappointed in the character that I can't bring myself to even bring him along on subsequent play-thoughs, let alone romance him. I did try, several times, but it never worked, I just despise him too much for what I know he will turn into at the end. I will try again, have him duel Loghain, and relinquish the crown to Anora to stay a happy GW. If that's a possible outcome, I'm not sure, I have to read up on that. But that's about the only way I could use him in a play-through again. I don't know if I could have my PC romance him though, that would be too much perhaps.

I take a very, very dim view on betrayal, be it Loghain's or Alistair's. Both are blinded and see only that what they wish to see. They feel a certain way, and expect everyone to follow suit. It's my personal viewpoint on what I like/dislike, and I just can't forgive Alistair turning his back on all of Ferelden because of one person's decision.

You can also look at it this way: Loghain's betrayal costs many, many lives. His letting Tevinter slavers run rampant in the alienage is utterly disgusting. His paranoia about Orlais is extreme to say the least, but Alistair's behavior is equally deplorable. Only GWs can defeat the archdemon. Alistair knows that very well. There are a grand total of 3 in Ferelden. If the GWs fail, not only many lives, but all life ceases. Utter horror would reign. Broodmother anyone?

Yet he leaves. I can understand having personal issues, but he doesn't fight at all. Not in the group (which I would completely understand), and not with other contingents. I see Eamon, Irwin, Teagan, and a few others, but no Alistair. This fact alone devalues everything that the PC and he struggled and fought for, and what Duncan died for.

I can see it from both sides too. I can see why people absolutely HATE Alistair for walking away, of course it was an immature, gut reaction, absolutely.  Yes for the greater good, he should have been able to put his personal feelings aside.  I don't know how many of us are actually strong enough to do such a thing under such terrible pressure.  I don't know if it can be done, I doubt I, myself, could do it.  I wonder if anyone actually could. We don't know - we'll never know, because thank whatever gods there are, we have not been put in a position so horrible (unless an archdemon shows up in NYC and tries to wipe out all life as we know it - then we'll talk )

However, taking all emotional attachments and all that stuff out of it, I would not trust Loghain at my back. I have no reason to. For that alone, I wouldn't want him with me.  I would be afraid of a knife in the back. Heh.

[Recidiva]

Sabriana wrote...

The funny thing is that I understand all of that. The detractors and the fans. I was so disappointed in the character that I can't bring myself to even bring him along on subsequent play-thoughs, let alone romance him. I did try, several times, but it never worked, I just despise him too much for what I know he will turn into at the end. I will try again, have him duel Loghain, and relinquish the crown to Anora to stay a happy GW. If that's a possible outcome, I'm not sure, I have to read up on that. But that's about the only way I could use him in a play-through again. I don't know if I could have my PC romance him though, that would be too much perhaps.

I take a very, very dim view on betrayal, be it Loghain's or Alistair's. Both are blinded and see only that what they wish to see. They feel a certain way, and expect everyone to follow suit. It's my personal viewpoint on what I like/dislike, and I just can't forgive Alistair turning his back on all of Ferelden because of one person's decision.

You can also look at it this way: Loghain's betrayal costs many, many lives. His letting Tevinter slavers run rampant in the alienage is utterly disgusting. His paranoia about Orlais is extreme to say the least, but Alistair's behavior is equally deplorable. Only GWs can defeat the archdemon. Alistair knows that very well. There are a grand total of 3 in Ferelden. If the GWs fail, not only many lives, but all life ceases. Utter horror would reign. Broodmother anyone?

Yet he leaves. I can understand having personal issues, but he doesn't fight at all. Not in the group (which I would completely understand), and not with other contingents. I see Eamon, Irwin, Teagan, and a few others, but no Alistair. This fact alone devalues everything that the PC and he struggled and fought for, and what Duncan died for.

That's my take as well.  I can understand that he's human.  I can't understand why he survives being that flawed in a game where flaws of that sort are met by ignoble and ugly death at every turn. 

I can't reconcile how someone could survive the entire campaign of horror and death and be responsible personally for a lot of the death, and not realize that "Ending the possibility of Broodmothers > My personal vendetta."

You can excuse it as "human" but I don't see why he's given a pass for not bearing the consequences of threatening to leave the Grey Wardens and how he's allowed to do so at all.  Jory was human too.  It just undercuts what the game universe set up on its own.  It's not about reality or what someone human would do in reality.  The game reality is that Grey Warden's don't leave.  This is the part that galls me the most as someone not given that choice during the rest of the game, and then not being able to gut him myself for that reason.  This is not Alistair being incompatible with human emotion, that's not the case.  This is Alistair being incompatible with everything else that's been going on in the game world that's been hammered repeatedly, and being inexplicably immune to its influence or consequences.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Duncan did not adopt Alistair, trying to say the two are comparable is a strawman.

It's a strawman of your own making, given this is completely not what i talked of.

As far as your own personal experience goes how it feels to have someone close to you killed, i'm sorry. But i stand by my point that this does not give you some sort of divine perception to know how another person may feel about losing someone they loved, no matter if they were blood relatives or not. Nor does it give you any right to claim that the grief of that person couldn't be possibly as acute as that of someone's else. It's nothing but crass arrogance.

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:26 .