353 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Wrathra wrote...
I can see it from both sides too. I can see why people absolutely HATE Alistair for walking away, of course it was an immature, gut reaction, absolutely.  Yes for the greater good, he should have been able to put his personal feelings aside.  I don't know how many of us are actually strong enough to do such a thing under such terrible pressure.  I don't know if it can be done, I doubt I, myself, could do it.  I wonder if anyone actually could. We don't know - we'll never know, because thank whatever gods there are, we have not been put in a position so horrible (unless an archdemon shows up in NYC and tries to wipe out all life as we know it - then we'll talk )

However, taking all emotional attachments and all that stuff out of it, I would not trust Loghain at my back. I have no reason to. For that alone, I wouldn't want him with me.  I would be afraid of a knife in the back. Heh.

To be honest I don't think a lot of us who thinks Alistair is total jerk for desterting the Grey Wardens at the Landsmeet really disagree with any of what you write. I think alomst everybody is agreed on that the first time you are hit with Alistairs tantrum it comes like a shock. So many people have written the same thing so I think it's fair to say they should have prepared the player a bit better to this side of Alistair, something to make you have a chance to see it coming.

The argument for letting Loghain live or not is actually a completely different question. As far as I can see it, the question of whether Loghain lives or not all depends on how you roleplay your character and it's pointless to tell someone they are doing something wrong when they are roleplaying. But the fact that you can justify roleplaying your character killing Loghain does NOTHING to excuse Alistairs actions if you do not kill Loghain.

The main thing that keeps this debate alive and makes me return to it, other than the fact that people keep mixing up the two questions above, is the fact that some people actually insist that Alistair is morally justified in quitting the Grey Wardens if the player lets Loghain live. Understandable because he looses his temper under stress - sure (and then probably regret it for the rest of his life), but that it would be the right thing to do to quit the Grey Wardens just before the battle against the Archdemon - no way! ever!

[tmp7704]

Xandurpein wrote...

but that it would be the right thing to do to quit the Grey Wardens just before the battle against the Archdemon - no way! ever!

People swear to love and support one another till death when they marry. Then they fall out of love and get divorced. It's not really a big deal.

The players just get all riled up about it because they get publically declared not worthy of affection and then dumped

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:45 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're equating the capabiltiy with desire. Being a capable leader when required and wanting to be one are two different things. Alistair is quite capable of leading (didn't he lead a squad of templars before? ), as king he proves he has it in him. He doesn't want to lead, and that's why he LET'S you do it.
He is determined, try talking with him and picking up all the "we're lsot, it's hopeless" options. He will not quit.
Him abdicating the leadership doesnt  prove anything really.

Oh he stubborn with somethings all right. But no, that does not make anyone a good Leader, and if you are equating leading a squad of Templars with being a King, you must be joking. Fact of the matter is that leading a small squad of troops doesn't necessiate any major ability for independant thinking, even if that can help sometimes. Wanting to be a leader doesn't make you a good leader, but NOT wanting to be a leader almost invariably makes you a poor leader, becuase your instinct is to back out of any difficult decision. The only thing that could possibly make Alistair assume leadership on his own, even if he doesn't want it, is if he has a truly immense strong sense of duty, but we already established that he does NOT have that sense of duty, as he quits the Grey Wardens if the player makes him upset enough.

Either he has the sense of duty to put the good of the Grey Wardens and Ferelden above his own desires, or he doesn't. you can't have it both ways

Modifié par Xandurpein, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[Xandurpein]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

but that it would be the right thing to do to quit the Grey Wardens just before the battle against the Archdemon - no way! ever!

People swear to love and support one another till death when they marry. Then they fall out of love and get divorced. It's not really a big deal.

The players just get all riled up about it because they get publically declared not worthy of affection and then dumped

Umm... I didn't even like him that much. He can stuff his affection for all I care, but I still think he is a jackass for desrting the Grey Wardens. At least when I played it, saving the world was teeny bit more important than my characters ego.

[bobsmyuncle]

Xandurpein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're equating the capabiltiy with desire. Being a capable leader when required and wanting to be one are two different things. Alistair is quite capable of leading (didn't he lead a squad of templars before? ), as king he proves he has it in him. He doesn't want to lead, and that's why he LET'S you do it.
He is determined, try talking with him and picking up all the "we're lsot, it's hopeless" options. He will not quit.
Him abdicating the leadership doesnt  prove anything really.

Oh he stubborn with somethings all right. But no, that does not make anyone a good Leader, and if you are equating leading a squad of Templars with being a King, you must be joking. Fact of the matter is that leading a small squad of troops doesn't necessiate any major ability for independant thinking, even if that can help sometimes. Wanting to be a leader doesn't make you a good leader, but NOT wanting to be a leader almost invariably makes you a poor leader, becuase your instinct is to back out of any difficult decision. The only thing that could possibly make Alistair assume leadership on his own, even if he doesn't want it, is if he has a truly immense strong sense of duty, but we already established that he does NOT have that sense of duty, as he quits the Grey Wardens if the player makes him upset enough.

Either he has the sense of duty to put the good of the Grey Wardens and Ferelden above his own desires, or he doesn't. you can't have it both ways

His walking away is the result of an intense emotional reaction, and yes he does regret it later as evidenced by the ending where he becomes a self loathing alcoholic. He does have a strong sense of duty, but his hatred of Loghain and sense of betrayal by the PC cloud his judgment. As Sten says "Either you have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory, to know nothing of regret." <_<

And if I had to argue about what makes a good leader, someone who is wary of power, doesn't like the trappings of authority, and has a strong sense of right and wrong would be who I would argue for.

[Wrathra]

Xandurpein wrote...

The argument for letting Loghain live or not is actually a completely different question. As far as I can see it, the question of whether Loghain lives or not all depends on how you roleplay your character and it's pointless to tell someone they are doing something wrong when they are roleplaying. But the fact that you can justify roleplaying your character killing Loghain does NOTHING to excuse Alistairs actions if you do not kill Loghain.

This can go both ways. 

Loghain supporters can justify roleplaying letting Loghain live and making him a Warden, when there is an army full of people who can be made Wardens. I cannot.  He is a traitor.   Alive, he is a threat. He does absolutely nothing to prove himself otherwise except say "Doh! I changed my mind because you beat the crap out of me."  If he is the tactical genius everyone claims, why would he not use my trust to his advantage? And letting him join you is granting him a measure of trust.

Take Alistair out of the argument and I would still feel the same.  I would expect Loghain to attempt to undermine my authority at every turn. Loghain is a powerful, charismatic character (and one I do happen to like), a leader shoved into a subordinate position against his will under someone he had very recently tried to kill.   

I would prefer to lock him up, but alas, there was no option to do so, so he dies. To allow him anywhere near the army (without knowing how things turn out at the end of the game) is suicidal. I'm certainly not going to take him at his word.

I don't excuse Alistair's actions when you spare Loghain, I don't think walking out on the Wardens was the right thing to do. Not at all.  But I do empathize with him, and I cannot say what my reaction in his place would be. I could sit here patting myself on the back saying "I'm the bigger woman!! I'd do the right thing,"  sure, but I'm not going to, because I honestly don't know.

[Recidiva]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

His walking away is the result of an intense emotional reaction, and yes he does regret it later as evidenced by the ending where he becomes a self loathing alcoholic. He does have a strong sense of duty, but his hatred of Loghain and sense of betrayal by the PC cloud his judgment. As Sten says "Either you have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory, to know nothing of regret." <_<

And if I had to argue about what makes a good leader, someone who is wary of power, doesn't like the trappings of authority, and has a strong sense of right and wrong would be who I would argue for.

But he doesn't regret it if you make him king.  He's the person you have to talk to in order to get your "attaboy" and he's incredibly rude.

Never mind that we're all alive, the blight's over and I saved his ass repeatedly.  He's crabby and that's all that matters.

[Xandurpein]

Wrathra wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The argument for letting Loghain live or not is actually a completely different question. As far as I can see it, the question of whether Loghain lives or not all depends on how you roleplay your character and it's pointless to tell someone they are doing something wrong when they are roleplaying. But the fact that you can justify roleplaying your character killing Loghain does NOTHING to excuse Alistairs actions if you do not kill Loghain.

This can go both ways. 

Loghain supporters can justify roleplaying letting Loghain live and making him a Warden, when there is an army full of people who can be made Wardens. I cannot.  He is a traitor.   Alive, he is a threat. He does absolutely nothing to prove himself otherwise except say "Doh! I changed my mind because you beat the crap out of me."  If he is the tactical genius everyone claims, why would he not use my trust to his advantage? And letting him join you is granting him a measure of trust.

Take Alistair out of the argument and I would still feel the same.  I would expect Loghain to attempt to undermine my authority at every turn. Loghain is a powerful, charismatic character (and one I do happen to like), a leader shoved into a subordinate position against his will under someone he had very recently tried to kill.   

I would prefer to lock him up, but alas, there was no option to do so, so he dies. To allow him anywhere near the army (without knowing how things turn out at the end of the game) is suicidal. I'm certainly not going to take him at his word.

I don't excuse Alistair's actions when you spare Loghain, I don't think walking out on the Wardens was the right thing to do. Not at all.  But I do empathize with him, and I cannot say what my reaction in his place would be. I could sit here patting myself on the back saying "I'm the bigger woman!! I'd do the right thing,"  sure, but I'm not going to, because I honestly don't know.

I totally agree your choices are all valid, except that I have done either way, depending on how I roleplay it. Some characters let Loghain live either out of a sense of honor for the rules of duel or out of cold calculation, others just kill him without a thought. Sometimes my character kills Zevhran, other times I let him live.

Zevhran is an interesting comparison, because you can recruit him without any real risk (except if he betrays you, but then he just dies - no big deal). I think this is part of why Alistair's actions becomes such a shock, and why I wish they had prepared the player better for Alistairs actions. Up until then, the game has more or less conditioned you to pick up every strange or potentially untrustworthy stray you can imagine and add to your party, with no real risk involved. I mean seriuosly, if you didn't know this was a game, would you let an assassin who just surrendered live and have him bunk in the tent next to you, just like that?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:00 .

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

I totally agree your choices are all valid, except that I have done either way, depending on how I roleplay it. Some characters let Loghain live either out of a sense of honor for the rules of duel or out of cold calculation, others just kill him without a thought. Sometimes my character kills Zevhran, other times I let him live.

Zevhran is an interesting comparison, because you can recruit him without any real risk (except if he betrays you, but then he just dies - no big deal). I think this is part of why Alistair's actions becomes such a shock, and why I wish they had prepared the player better for Alistairs actions. Up until then, the game has more or less conditioned you to pick up every strange or potentially untrustworthy stray you can imagine and add to your party, with no real risk involved. I mean seriuosly, if you didn't know this was a game, would you let an assassin who just surrendered live and have him bunk in the tent next to you, just like that?

And I think in a game that is meant to be replayed, making the "Spare Loghain" option be so very...ugly...

And in fact in a metagaming sense, I'm almost compelled to do so BECAUSE I'm in love with Alistair's character.  I can't take the deal, he'll be heartbroken if I sacrifice myself, I'll be heartbroken if he kills himself.  To me, I'm saving Alistair's life and I don't really need that much metagaming knowledge to do so, if I'm rolelpaying a strategically savvy Grey Warden who is on alert to the future the moment Alistair mentions being the heir.

I was at least expecting some sort of appreciation for "Ends justifying means, all's well that ends well" when I play a game that I consider to be strategically top notch.

But no love from Alistair on that score.  It's fine for a character to be true to being a stubborn, selfish jerk.  It just is no fun to play with it.  There's no sense of helpless tragedy of circumstance in that case, just alienated hate.

So Ferelden is spared, the bad guy's fed to the dragon, we're all alive and I'm the villain now.  Right. 

C'mon man, at least give the speech.  Anora sucks.

Modifié par Recidiva, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:06 .

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

His walking away is the result of an intense emotional reaction, and yes he does regret it later as evidenced by the ending where he becomes a self loathing alcoholic. He does have a strong sense of duty, but his hatred of Loghain and sense of betrayal by the PC cloud his judgment. As Sten says "Either you have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory, to know nothing of regret." <_<

And if I had to argue about what makes a good leader, someone who is wary of power, doesn't like the trappings of authority, and has a strong sense of right and wrong would be who I would argue for.

But he doesn't regret it if you make him king.  He's the person you have to talk to in order to get your "attaboy" and he's incredibly rude.

Never mind that we're all alive, the blight's over and I saved his ass repeatedly.  He's crabby and that's all that matters.

I just watched that ending and he does sound condescending. It’s almost like, “Why did I even try man?” However, no matter how much Alistair plucks my nerves, to see Anora snatch her hand from him at the end was a bit much. I guess that's in her character though.

[ejoslin]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

And if I had to argue about what makes a good leader, someone who is wary of power, doesn't like the trappings of authority, and has a strong sense of right and wrong would be who I would argue for.

Heh, like Lord Harrowmont over Prince Bhelen I take it . . .  The game makes a very strong argument against this very argument!

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[bobsmyuncle]

Recidiva wrote...

But he doesn't regret it if you make him king.  He's the person you have to talk to in order to get your "attaboy" and he's incredibly rude.

Never mind that we're all alive, the blight's over and I saved his ass repeatedly.  He's crabby and that's all that matters.

Well, in that case he doesn't leave, I suppose, because you publicly cornered him into assuming the throne and his only recourse in expressing his anger is being rude to you?

I generally argue on Alistair's behalf because most of the time his behavior makes sense to me even when I don't like it. In this specific case, though, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the crown can command his loyalty in a way the Wardens can't.

I'll just say he's definitely a more emotional than logical person, so trying to analyze him using the standard of what's reasonable isn't going to get you far in figuring him out.

[Wrathra]

Xandurpein wrote...

I totally agree your choices are all valid, except that I have done either way, depending on how I roleplay it. Some characters let Loghain live either out of a sense of honor for the rules of duel or out of cold calculation, others just kill him without a thought. Sometimes my character kills Zevhran, other times I let him live.

Zevhran is an interesting comparison, because you can recruit him without any real risk (except if he betrays you, but then he just dies - no big deal). I think this is part of why Alistair's actions becomes such a shock, and why I wish they had prepared the player better for Alistairs actions. Up until then, the game has more or less conditioned you to pick up every strange or potentially untrustworthy stray you can imagine and add to your party, with no real risk involved. I mean seriuosly, if you didn't know this was a game, would you let an assassin who just surrendered live and have him bunk in the tent next to you, just like that?

That is a very very good point, actually!  One I cannot refute. I salute you, sir!   

I always say the human noble has no real right to condemn Alistair for his actions, since they get to kill Howe, but that's an entirely different argument and one I won't bore you with 

This is probably been said a billion times, but I think Alistair's reactions are meant to be a shock, it's not a decision we're supposed to make lightly.

[Xandurpein]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

And if I had to argue about what makes a good leader, someone who is wary of power, doesn't like the trappings of authority, and has a strong sense of right and wrong would be who I would argue for.

It's not about power, it's about responsibility. Alistair prefers to let other people decide for him, instead of assuming responsibility himself. Being afraid of responsibility is NOT the same as being wary of power. When he does act independently, it's not out of responsibility, but out of selfish reasons, however understandable they may seem.  

[ejoslin]

Wrathra wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I totally agree your choices are all valid, except that I have done either way, depending on how I roleplay it. Some characters let Loghain live either out of a sense of honor for the rules of duel or out of cold calculation, others just kill him without a thought. Sometimes my character kills Zevhran, other times I let him live.

Zevhran is an interesting comparison, because you can recruit him without any real risk (except if he betrays you, but then he just dies - no big deal). I think this is part of why Alistair's actions becomes such a shock, and why I wish they had prepared the player better for Alistairs actions. Up until then, the game has more or less conditioned you to pick up every strange or potentially untrustworthy stray you can imagine and add to your party, with no real risk involved. I mean seriuosly, if you didn't know this was a game, would you let an assassin who just surrendered live and have him bunk in the tent next to you, just like that?

That is a very very good point, actually!  One I cannot refute. I salute you, sir!   

I always say the human noble has no real right to condemn Alistair for his actions, since they get to kill Howe, but that's an entirely different argument and one I won't bore you with 

This is probably been said a billion times, but I think Alistair's reactions are meant to be a shock, it's not a decision we're supposed to make lightly.

The human noble has no choice BUT to kill Howe -- Howe drew first, and Anora sent her to Howe.  And the human noble, when wanting to go after Howe at the beginning, was forbidden to do so by Duncan.

[tmp7704]

Xandurpein wrote...

Umm... I didn't even like him that much. He can stuff his affection for all I care, but I still think he is a jackass for desrting the Grey Wardens. At least when I played it, saving the world was teeny bit more important than my characters ego.

But if you did not care for this world at all and the world seemingly didn't care at all about you as well, would you bother to save it? Why, when it seems perfectly happy to save itself without your unwelcome assistance? That's the point where Alistair is at.

[Herr Uhl]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
I just watched that ending and he does sound condescending. It’s almost like, “Why did I even try man?” However, no matter how much Alistair plucks my nerves, to see Anora snatch her hand from him at the end was a bit much. I guess that's in her character though.

Well, her husband died about a year ago, due to her father. And now she is going to marry his brother, who also seems a fair bit like Cailan. Knowing of Cailans escapades, she probably puts his talk (Romantic love, naked babies with wings flying around and lack of licking lampposts) down as a facade.

People are really giving her a hard time.

[Xandurpein]

Wrathra wrote...

I always say the human noble has no real right to condemn Alistair for his actions, since they get to kill Howe, but that's an entirely different argument and one I won't bore you with 

I am familiar with this argument, and I think it's not applicable at all. It would only be meaningful if letting Howe live is an option. Without that, the argument becomes something like "No one who has won on a lottery ticket has the right to condemn a bank robber".

[Xandurpein]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Umm... I didn't even like him that much. He can stuff his affection for all I care, but I still think he is a jackass for desrting the Grey Wardens. At least when I played it, saving the world was teeny bit more important than my characters ego.

But if you did not care for this world at all and the world seemingly didn't care at all about you as well, would you bother to save it? Why, when it seems perfectly happy to save itself without your unwelcome assistance? That's the point where Alistair is at.

Well... then he is a childish idiot for thinking I am the same as the whole world.

[Kohaku]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
I just watched that ending and he does sound condescending. It’s almost like, “Why did I even try man?” However, no matter how much Alistair plucks my nerves, to see Anora snatch her hand from him at the end was a bit much. I guess that's in her character though.

Well, her husband died about a year ago, due to her father. And now she is going to marry his brother, who also seems a fair bit like Cailan. Knowing of Cailans escapades, she probably puts his talk (Romantic love, naked babies with wings flying around and lack of licking lampposts) down as a facade.

People are really giving her a hard time.

The more I think about her, the more I think the reason I don't like her is because she's somewhat like me. Hard, cold, to the point. It's something I'm trying desperately to change. It's not working though.

[Recidiva]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Well, in that case he doesn't leave, I suppose, because you publicly cornered him into assuming the throne and his only recourse in expressing his anger is being rude to you?

I generally argue on Alistair's behalf because most of the time his behavior makes sense to me even when I don't like it. In this specific case, though, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the crown can command his loyalty in a way the Wardens can't.

I'll just say he's definitely a more emotional than logical person, so trying to analyze him using the standard of what's reasonable isn't going to get you far in figuring him out.

Right, which is why my nickname for him is "Kobayashi Maru."  I don't think he's intended to be "solved" - just endured.

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Well, in that case he doesn't leave, I suppose, because you publicly cornered him into assuming the throne and his only recourse in expressing his anger is being rude to you?

I generally argue on Alistair's behalf because most of the time his behavior makes sense to me even when I don't like it. In this specific case, though, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the crown can command his loyalty in a way the Wardens can't.

I'll just say he's definitely a more emotional than logical person, so trying to analyze him using the standard of what's reasonable isn't going to get you far in figuring him out.

Right, which is why my nickname for him is "Kobayashi Maru."  I don't think he's intended to be "solved" - just endured.

or hacked...

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

or hacked...

I'm truly a Grey Warden.  I will do whatever it takes

[Xandurpein]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
I just watched that ending and he does sound condescending. It’s almost like, “Why did I even try man?” However, no matter how much Alistair plucks my nerves, to see Anora snatch her hand from him at the end was a bit much. I guess that's in her character though.

Well, her husband died about a year ago, due to her father. And now she is going to marry his brother, who also seems a fair bit like Cailan. Knowing of Cailans escapades, she probably puts his talk (Romantic love, naked babies with wings flying around and lack of licking lampposts) down as a facade.

People are really giving her a hard time.

The more I think about her, the more I think the reason I don't like her is because she's somewhat like me. Hard, cold, to the point. It's something I'm trying desperately to change. It's not working though.

I'm sure there is hope for you, and if all else fails there are some of us who really liked Anora...

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Well, in that case he doesn't leave, I suppose, because you publicly cornered him into assuming the throne and his only recourse in expressing his anger is being rude to you?

I generally argue on Alistair's behalf because most of the time his behavior makes sense to me even when I don't like it. In this specific case, though, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the crown can command his loyalty in a way the Wardens can't.

I'll just say he's definitely a more emotional than logical person, so trying to analyze him using the standard of what's reasonable isn't going to get you far in figuring him out.

Right, which is why my nickname for him is "Kobayashi Maru."  I don't think he's intended to be "solved" - just endured.

I just had to look that up. I had no idea what that meant. I've never seen Star Trek.