353 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

Xandurpein wrote...

arntson wrote...

you spared the guy who killed his brother killed his dad(duncan) thats grounds for him to lop off your head

Well... he can send all the Antivan Crowes after me if he wants, as long as he does it AFTER the Archdemon is dead. The Grey Wardens is about stopping the Blight - stopping the End of the World! Just how many peoples lives is it OK to jeopardize in the name of personal vendetta?

You, sir, are obviously not of the line of Machiavelli.
If we are to do harm to a person, let it be so slight that he does not plans vengeance, or so severe that we fear not his.

[Xandurpein]

arntson wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

arntson wrote...

you spared the guy who killed his brother killed his dad(duncan) thats grounds for him to lop off your head

Well... he can send all the Antivan Crowes after me if he wants, as long as he does it AFTER the Archdemon is dead. The Grey Wardens is about stopping the Blight - stopping the End of the World! Just how many peoples lives is it OK to jeopardize in the name of personal vendetta?

200,000

I guess your character and mine have radically different views on the value of innocent lives then.

[Xandurpein]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

arntson wrote...

you spared the guy who killed his brother killed his dad(duncan) thats grounds for him to lop off your head

Well... he can send all the Antivan Crowes after me if he wants, as long as he does it AFTER the Archdemon is dead. The Grey Wardens is about stopping the Blight - stopping the End of the World! Just how many peoples lives is it OK to jeopardize in the name of personal vendetta?

You, sir, are obviously not of the line of Machiavelli.
If we are to do harm to a person, let it be so slight that he does not plans vengeance, or so severe that we fear not his.

While I have read Machiavelli and the story of why he wrote "The Prince", it's true that I seldom apply his thoughts moral dilemmas.

[robertthebard]

arntson wrote...

you spared the guy who killed his brother killed his dad(duncan) thats grounds for him to lop off your head

You know, if he'd drawn steel against me instead of running his scared ass out of town, I wouldn't be here protesting him.

[Vicious]

Cailan was a fool who got all the Grey Wardens killed. Sure, Loghain may have saved them, but if you listen to his party banter, he seems to truly believe that Ostagar was unwinnable at the point that the beacon was lit. Not to mention the battle itself was pretty pointless since the Archdemon was still underground at that point.

Anyway that said, if I found out that my son in law was cheating on my only daughter with abandon [so THATS why they don't have any heirs! But he probably has lots of bastards.] then I would probably leave him to die too.

Loghain couldn't kill the jerk, since, well, he's the King, but he could sure let him die on the front lines where his prissy "I'm the King" armor won't stop an Ogre from crushing him like an empty beer can.

Modifié par Vicious, 30 décembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

UltraBoy360 wrote...

I look at it this way: if things had worked out differently at Howe's estate, how would Human Noble character's feel if Riordan and King Alistair had insisted to the Human Noble PC that he/she work alongside new Grey Warden Rendon Howe to defeat the Blight. Mine would have told them to **** off and I bet 90% of HN players would have done the same, including all the one's here who think Alistair did such a bad thing.

To be honest, I had not idea this choice existed until I read the boards. I chose Alistair to fight the duel and he kills him automatically. Seemed fair and logical to let him fight for the crown.

You'd lose, especially where I'm concerned, and this just came up, again, about 2 pages back, maybe three.  I'd hate it, and I'd cuss, but since my father told me to go out and make my mark on the world, I'd do it by killing the Archdemon sans ritual because of how dirty I felt.  That's the definition of duty, it is not "I don't like what that guy did, and I'm going to take your toys and go get drunk".

Thing is, sparing Loghian is NOT your duty. It's not GW's duty. If you have means to make Loghian a Warden, then you can make someone else a Warden instead of him. So why insisting on Loghain?
For any reasons you can bring to spare him, I can give you two to kill him.

Al doesn't have to stand for it. The PC doesn't have to stand for it if Howe is involved. No sufficient reason was given.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Recidiva wrote...
Actually if I set dog on "Kill him if he makes a move" then I don't worry.  I also don't have to think anyone else's opinion matters.  Which is why I'm so annoyed with Alistair.  Because the game didn't give me a chance to explain how I see it.

Aa I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Al's oppinion doesn't matter. The oppinion of Fereldens doesn't matter. the oppinion of hte world doesn't matter. Interesting.

He can have as many people who want him to be an unblemished hero and as many statues as he wants.  As long as he's dead.

Having him rememebred in history as a great hero? Great punishment indeed!
Dying fighitng the Archdemon..it's probably the type of death Loghian would LIKE. So much for a terrible punishment.

[Sabriana]

What matters is that he turns and runs. He leaves Ferelden to be taken over by darkspawn. Loghain's actions were deplorable, and should be punished. In normal times, off with his head, I say. Or rot in the dungeons, which might even be a better punishment. But times are not normal. The body-count that can be put on Loghain's head are nothing compared to the body count should the darkspawn overrun Ferelden. Not to mention the horrors they would inflict on possible survivors.

GW are vital to slaying the archdemon, and Alistair knows that. There are 3 Wardens total in all of Ferelden. If the most experienced GW, Riordan, makes such a suggestion, it is safe to assume that he has a reason.

I do wish my PC had the opportunity to say "Woah! Time out! Let us go off for a moment and you can explain your reasons, Ser Riordan. Guards, keep an eye on Loghain. One false move, and off with his head."

Anyway, like I keep saying, I have no problem understanding Alistair's reasoning. I agree, Loghain is a dirtball. I would even understand Alistair leaving the group. I do not understand him betraying Ferelden, Duncan, Eamon, all of the GW's, and all of the allies, turning and leaving Ferelden to rot under the Darkspawn.

My human noble would have 3 fits from Sunday if the suggestion came to draft Howe. She might even leave the group. But never would she turn her back on Ferelden, leaving everyone to die or worse. She's a noble, and has obligations to the country, her family, and wants to fulfill her father's last wish. She might leave the group, but she would fight for Ferelden nevertheless. Not hole up in her room, or get drunk in the next best Tavern.

[Default137]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

UltraBoy360 wrote...

I look at it this way: if things had worked out differently at Howe's estate, how would Human Noble character's feel if Riordan and King Alistair had insisted to the Human Noble PC that he/she work alongside new Grey Warden Rendon Howe to defeat the Blight. Mine would have told them to **** off and I bet 90% of HN players would have done the same, including all the one's here who think Alistair did such a bad thing.

To be honest, I had not idea this choice existed until I read the boards. I chose Alistair to fight the duel and he kills him automatically. Seemed fair and logical to let him fight for the crown.

You'd lose, especially where I'm concerned, and this just came up, again, about 2 pages back, maybe three.  I'd hate it, and I'd cuss, but since my father told me to go out and make my mark on the world, I'd do it by killing the Archdemon sans ritual because of how dirty I felt.  That's the definition of duty, it is not "I don't like what that guy did, and I'm going to take your toys and go get drunk".

Thing is, sparing Loghian is NOT your duty. It's not GW's duty. If you have means to make Loghian a Warden, then you can make someone else a Warden instead of him. So why insisting on Loghain?
For any reasons you can bring to spare him, I can give you two to kill him.

Al doesn't have to stand for it. The PC doesn't have to stand for it if Howe is involved. No sufficient reason was given.

The greatest general/hero the world has ever known lies at your feet, with the choice of what to do with him up to you, you are about to go fight the GREATEST EVIL the world has ever known with several armies behind your back, and have absolutly nobody to lead them.

No offense, but every time I try putting myself in my characters shoes, the only SANE thing to do is turn him in to a Warden, or at least force him to help us, anything else would just be squandering what you have in front of you. It would be like if the Allies caught Rommel before Hitler offed him, he surrendered and offered to help the Allies, and all of a sudden they say "NO YOU WERE MEAN TO JEWS" and blasted off his head with a 12-gauge.

Would that be a good way to get revenge for them? Possibly, but you just  killed what could have been one of your best Generals, and someone who could have helped keep hundreds of your troops from dying in a pointless fight, and made the war end alot faster then it normally would have, if needbe, and bloody revenge is THAT important to you, why not just kill him AFTER WE FINISH FIGHTING THE GIANT DRAGON.

Yes Loghain is a immoral bastard, but if you actually pick him up, you do find he is not as evil and manical as everyone seems to want to think he is, he points out that the plan at Ostagar was Cailans, and that he repetadly tried to get Cailan to realize it would not work, he said that even if he had run in with his troops, they would have been slaughtered to the man, and even if they had won, they would have never stood a chance against the Archdemon when it appeared later, or even subsequent battles.

The only thing Loghain did that could even be considered him being a total evil jackass is selling off the Alienage to the Tevinter, and we don't really know what he was planning, everything else he had good reasons for, Cailan decided to kill himself while looking for glory, so Loghain decided to save his troops, he knew Arl Eamon would put up a fuss, so he had him poisoned, for all we know only until he was done setting up a power base.

I forgot what happened at the Mage Tower, but if someone where to refresh my memory, I could probably spin it into making Loghain look like he was doing something he had to do, heck, with how late into the story the Alienage happens, you could spin it off as he had realized that he would need more people in his army, and Tevinter offered aid, and at this point he was willing to do anything to keep Ferelden together.

Modifié par Default137, 30 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Sabriana]

After reading the posts about how Loghain was to blame for the mage tower, I loaded up a save and replayed. I never got anything beyond the fact that Uldred claimed that Loghain would help the mages if they support him. No other evidence can be found anywhere, and I really tried to get all options with Niall and Wynne.

Nowhere does it come up that Loghain suggested or forced Uldred to turn to blood magic, demons, and create abominations. On the contrary, Wynne tells my PC that Uldred always was out for himself, for power, and his own advancement. Even before Loghain entered the picture.

I might have missed something, but I'm pretty sure I didn't. But it's always possible

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

What matters is that he turns and runs. He leaves Ferelden to be taken over by darkspawn. Loghain's actions were deplorable, and should be punished. In normal times, off with his head, I say. Or rot in the dungeons, which might even be a better punishment. But times are not normal. The body-count that can be put on Loghain's head are nothing compared to the body count should the darkspawn overrun Ferelden. Not to mention the horrors they would inflict on possible survivors.
GW are vital to slaying the archdemon, and Alistair knows that. There are 3 Wardens total in all of Ferelden. If the most experienced GW, Riordan, makes such a suggestion, it is safe to assume that he has a reason.
I do wish my PC had the opportunity to say "Woah! Time out! Let us go off for a moment and you can explain your reasons, Ser Riordan. Guards, keep an eye on Loghain. One false move, and off with his head."
Anyway, like I keep saying, I have no problem understanding Alistair's reasoning. I agree, Loghain is a dirtball. I would even understand Alistair leaving the group. I do not understand him betraying Ferelden, Duncan, Eamon, all of the GW's, and all of the allies, turning and leaving Ferelden to rot under the Darkspawn.
My human noble would have 3 fits from Sunday if the suggestion came to draft Howe. She might even leave the group. But never would she turn her back on Ferelden, leaving everyone to die or worse. She's a noble, and has obligations to the country, her family, and wants to fulfill her father's last wish. She might leave the group, but she would fight for Ferelden nevertheless. Not hole up in her room, or get drunk in the next best Tavern.

I couldn't agree more. My characters preferred solution to have either Howe or Loghain made a Grey Warden would be to tell Riordan "Fine, if you think this is such a great idea, then you bring him along with you and I can take the people I'm used to fighting with with me". I can understand the romance with Alistair is over if you let Loghain live, but not that he leaves the Grey Wardens.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Having him rememebred in history as a great hero? Great punishment indeed!
Dying fighitng the Archdemon..it's probably the type of death Loghian would LIKE. So much for a terrible punishment.

Well...duh. I don't care one iota if he likes it or not, as long as he kills the Archdemon. Arguing over who is worthy or not of killing the Archdemon, or who might be unfairly redeemed by being allowed to kill it, when the job is to save Ferelden is pettiness on a scale that I find unbelievable. It simply baffles me that some people of this forum takes saving the world so lightly compared to keeping tabs on who deserves what honour or punishment.

If you really think that petty revenge and making sure someone who is undeserving doesn't get an unfair chance is more important than the lives of thousands of people, can you at least please reconsider your condemnation of Loghain, because you are really now in his camp. Loghain is ready to sacrifice the people of Ferelden beause of his petty personal feelingas towards Orlais. What makes you better than him?

[Default137]

Sabriana wrote...

After reading the posts about how Loghain was to blame for the mage tower, I loaded up a save and replayed. I never got anything beyond the fact that Uldred claimed that Loghain would help the mages if they support him. No other evidence can be found anywhere, and I really tried to get all options with Niall and Wynne.
Nowhere does it come up that Loghain suggested or forced Uldred to turn to blood magic, demons, and create abominations. On the contrary, Wynne tells my PC that Uldred always was out for himself, for power, and his own advancement. Even before Loghain entered the picture.
I might have missed something, but I'm pretty sure I didn't. But it's always possible

So for all we know, Loghain had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and Uldred was just using the name to try and evoke some feelings in our characters, because he knew they where gunning for him, which would make sense in a way. Now that I think about it, what gain would Loghain get from allowing Uldred to practise, he doesn't seem like he likes Blood Mages very much, and he gets nothing out of it, so it seems like Bioware just threw that in to give a reason for the mages to join the armies.

Thing is, I think alot of people hate Loghain for some really silly reasons, I mean, the character is so much different then anything most of us have come to expect that alot of people don't know how to classify him, he's the purest example of "the ends justify the means" but at the same time, everything he does is for the greater good of Ferelden.

I mean, I'm not going to deny he was a total immoral bastard, he was, there is no questions about that, but thats just who is is as a character, this is a guy who used to accept surrenders from enemy groups, only to kill them when they dropped their weapons, he's not knight in shining armor, he's the guy who gets stuff done.

But what did he really do that deserves his head? The battle at Ostagar was a total flop no matter what, If you have Wrynne and Loghain out, and ask him about it, she confirms everything he said, and agrees that he is probably right, and no matter what happened, Cailan/Duncan would have died. And he points out that had he charged in, there would not be enough soldiers to keep the rest of the hordes out, even if it wasn't a Blight, and that was his main motivation for leaving, not because he wanted power. Cailan was the one who devised the battle plan, and who ignored Loghain for all those weeks, so its not Loghains fault they all died.

He knew that Arl Eamon would be furious that his forces retreated, and would cause a ton of trouble, so he had him poisoned while he established a power base, to make sure he would be able to get Arl Eamon to agree with him once he woke up, the Mage Tower probably happened on its own, Uldred saw the fact the kingdom could do nothing, and seized his powerbase, and used Loghains name to make the heroes think he had the will of the king on his side, if I remember correctly now, he mentioned Loghain when he was trying to get them to join him.

Selling the Elves makes perfect sense if you drop the morality aspect of it, and realize he knew he would need troops to fight a Civil War and the Blight, Tevinter would gladly aid him in exchange for those slaves, and considering Orlais was not an option, well, what exactly else was he going to do, in his mind it all worked out, as he's not exactly a guy who thinks about things from the moral perspective.

But is that reason enough to execute him? Knowing that it was not his actions at Ostagar that killed the King and Duncan, but the Kings lust for Glory? Knowing that he may have had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and his only real acts may have been poisening the Arl, but leaving him alive, and selling off the Alienage for more troops to keep order in Ferelden? ( He probably has lines about this, and I just forgot them )

I could see that being grounds for imprisonment maybe, possibly a stern yelling at, but no reason there to kill him, now that I think of it like this, it will feel like metagaming to actually kill him for Alistar, because I'll only be doing it to make sure I don't cause Alistar to become ten times the traitor Loghain ever was.

[Sabriana]

Yes, Ostagar was lost by any means, whether Loghain would sacrifice his troops or not. My mage (first play-through, no metagaming) was very shocked to find out that the darkspawn had already infiltrated the inner sanctum, the camp itself via the tower of Ishal. So was Alistair if I remember correctly. He states that "The darkspawn shouldn't be here" in the battle for the tower.

Cailan was an idiot, just like my mage told Duncan. He neither listened to Duncan (Wait for Redcliffe, wait for the Grey Wardens) nor to Loghain. On the contrary, he longs for glory, and being listed in the history books as the "King who rode beside the Grey Wardens to battle a Blight". He refuses to listen to his father-in-law, who is definitely the better war-leader. Even Alistair says so in the beginning. Instead of listening to the superior general, Cailan turns around and smashes Orlais into Loghain's face. He had to know that Loghain had a special paranoia about Orlais, he knew the man his entire life, after all.

No, I don't want to glorify Loghain. But to say that he is solely to blame for the slaughter at Ostagar is not right, in my opinion. Cailan is just as guilty with his little boy fantasies of glory, going down in fabulous history, and hero worship. The only one blameless is Duncan, who obeys his king even though he knows, and says so, that Cailan is just plain wrong charging off like he does.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
GW are vital to slaying the archdemon, and Alistair knows that. There are 3 Wardens total in all of Ferelden. If the most experienced GW, Riordan, makes such a suggestion, it is safe to assume that he has a reason.

Actually, at that point he doesn't.
Al left the group, and I'm not saying that was a wise choice or that I'd do the same. But I can undersand him very well and it is within his right to leave.

Anyway, like I keep saying, I have no problem understanding Alistair's reasoning. I agree, Loghain is a dirtball. I would even understand Alistair leaving the group. I do not understand him betraying Ferelden, Duncan, Eamon, all of the GW's, and all of the allies, turning and leaving Ferelden to rot under the Darkspawn.

But he didn't betray them. He gathered an army and helped unite the army - what more do you really want from him. He's been fihgitng hte good fight for 2 years non-stop. Let him sit this battle out.

It's not betrayl. you dont' really need him (at that point). 1 man more or less doesn' matter when you have an entire army. And he's certanl not a coawrd and did more than his share of hte fighting.
It is a weakness of character, but not betrayl.

Also, WE DO NOT KNOW WHERE AL WAS DURING THE BATTLE.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Default137 wrote...
The greatest general/hero the world has ever known lies at your feet, with the choice of what to do with him up to you, you are about to go fight the GREATEST EVIL the world has ever known with several armies behind your back, and have absolutly nobody to lead them.

ERm..no. Loghain isn't the greatest general/hero the world has ever known. He is a legenday Ferelden general who's grown old and insane. Even if you do spare him, he doesn't end up leading your armies.
PC is nobody? Alistair is nobody? Eamon is nobody? Ferleden has capable officers and generals, heck even the dwarves sent some of their own. 

No offense, but every time I try putting myself in my characters shoes, the only SANE thing to do is turn him in to a Warden, or at least force him to help us, anything else would just be squandering what you have in front of you. It would be like if the Allies caught Rommel before Hitler offed him, he surrendered and offered to help the Allies, and all of a sudden they say "NO YOU WERE MEAN TO JEWS" and blasted off his head with a 12-gauge.

Quite the opposite. Sparing him is insane. I listed the reasons before. He's unstable, dangerous and untrustworthy. A political liabiltiy with enough pull and influence to backstab you in the last moment. A traitor and salver who caused, both directly and indirectly, the death and torture of thousands and led the country into a civil war. From a moral standpoint, how would the armies feel knowing that a man who betrayed their friends and family and abandoned hteir king is leading them? Even before hte Landsmeet there were doubts about him. Now, after he is exposed, the totality of his crimes will be apparent to everyone.

My point is that you don't NEED him. If you want antoher warden to take the blow, you can find willing recruits. Heck a, murderer or a petty criminal from any jail would do.

Yes Loghain is a immoral bastard, but if you actually pick him up, you do find he is not as evil and manical as everyone seems to want to think he is, he points out that the plan at Ostagar was Cailans, and that he repetadly tried to get Cailan to realize it would not work, he said that even if he had run in with his troops, they would have been slaughtered to the man, and even if they had won, they would have never stood a chance against the Archdemon when it appeared later, or even subsequent battles.

I bet that's what he keeps telling himself when he goes to sleep. The battleplan at Ostagar was his. The battle was winnable. We have more than enough in-game evidence to support this. Loghain is just in denail.
Cailan was not a moron for going into battle.
The evidence is agaist you in this one.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 décembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[Sabriana]

He was in his room sulking, per Anora, or getting drunk.

He did know that the Grey Wardens are all that stands between the people and the darkspawn, and that the Grey Wardens are the only ones that kill the archdemon, he says so at Ostagar. The only thing he does not know is that the one striking the killing blow also dies.

No, he shouldn't sit this battle out. Grey Wardens are vital to Ferelden's continued survival, but he leaves. Were he a 'normal' human being I would agree with you, but he isn't. I was angry and upset that Morrigan left (I refused the ritual), but she was no GW, therefore not imperative to defeating the archdemon.

It most certainly is within his rights to leave the group. I can understand that reaction perfectly. Duncan himself never displayed any special feelings toward Alistair, but Alistair certainly felt more toward Duncan than the rest of the GW. He just should've stated that he would never fight side by side with Loghain, but that he would be there for the final battle. He should've been on top of the tower, whether in a different contingent or alone, but he should really have been there.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Having him rememebred in history as a great hero? Great punishment indeed!
Dying fighitng the Archdemon..it's probably the type of death Loghian would LIKE. So much for a terrible punishment.

Well...duh. I don't care one iota if he likes it or not, as long as he kills the Archdemon. Arguing over who is worthy or not of killing the Archdemon, or who might be unfairly redeemed by being allowed to kill it, when the job is to save Ferelden is pettiness on a scale that I find unbelievable. It simply baffles me that some people of this forum takes saving the world so lightly compared to keeping tabs on who deserves what honour or punishment.

If you really think that petty revenge and making sure someone who is undeserving doesn't get an unfair chance is more important than the lives of thousands of people, can you at least please reconsider your condemnation of Loghain, because you are really now in his camp. Loghain is ready to sacrifice the people of Ferelden beause of his petty personal feelingas towards Orlais. What makes you better than him?

Of course you don' care, it's obvious.
Calling such behaviour petty when you're compeltely willing to ignore everyone elses thoughts and feelings? Ironic, isn't it.
It would be petty if Loghain was ESSENTIAL. However, he was NOT. Killing him is NOT toying with the lives of thousands for my personal revenge, and trying to make it look like so a strawman of epic proportions.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Having him rememebred in history as a great hero? Great punishment indeed!
Dying fighitng the Archdemon..it's probably the type of death Loghian would LIKE. So much for a terrible punishment.

Well...duh. I don't care one iota if he likes it or not, as long as he kills the Archdemon. Arguing over who is worthy or not of killing the Archdemon, or who might be unfairly redeemed by being allowed to kill it, when the job is to save Ferelden is pettiness on a scale that I find unbelievable. It simply baffles me that some people of this forum takes saving the world so lightly compared to keeping tabs on who deserves what honour or punishment.

If you really think that petty revenge and making sure someone who is undeserving doesn't get an unfair chance is more important than the lives of thousands of people, can you at least please reconsider your condemnation of Loghain, because you are really now in his camp. Loghain is ready to sacrifice the people of Ferelden beause of his petty personal feelingas towards Orlais. What makes you better than him?

Of course you don' care, it's obvious.
Calling such behaviour petty when you're compeltely willing to ignore everyone elses thoughts and feelings? Ironic, isn't it.
It would be petty if Loghain was ESSENTIAL. However, he was NOT. Killing him is NOT toying with the lives of thousands for my personal revenge, and trying to make it look like so a strawman of epic proportions.

No, I really do not see the irony in it. Is ignoring personal feelings, whether it is my feelings or that of my companions, in order to maximize the chance that we win the battle against the Archdemon petty? In what possible way so? There is no way any sane general would have people nurture their ego's instead of fighting on a Battle like Denerim. It's THE battle and we are outnumbered.

It doesn't matter if Loghain isn't essential or not. The only thing that matters is whether alistair is essential or not. I have tried to say this again and again, the question of whether Loghain is allowed to live or not is another question. I think that if we are to stop the End of the World and are outnumbered, then every man counts. When the enemy is at the gates and outnumbers you three to one, you give free pardon to prisoners who are willing to man the walls.

The big question is whether Alisdtair is essential or not. He is one of only three Grey Wardens, and thus a symbol of the hope to defeat the Archdemon. His worth is goes way beyond his fighting abilites. Imagine the effect on morale if he publically just disawows the fight.

Your argument that Alistair should be allowed to "sit this one out" is ridiculous. He doesn't sit this one out, he leaves the Grey Wardens for good and is consumed by self loathing. And saying that maybe Alistair did fight in the battle somehow undercover is the only strawman I can see.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 décembre 2009 - 11:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
No, I really do not see the irony in it. Is ignoring personal feelings, whether it is my feelings or that of my companions, in order to maximize the chance that we win the battle against the Archdemon petty? In what possible way so? There is no way any sane general would have people nurture their ego's instead of fighting on a Battle like Denerim. It's THE battle and we are outnumbered.

It doesn't matter if Loghain isn't essential or not. If we are to stop the End of the World and are outnumbered, then every man counts. When the enemy is at the gates and outnumbers you three to one, you give free pardon to prisoners who are willing to man the walls.

If you're willing to ignore everyones feelings in a zealous pursuit of a single goal, then you're not fit to lead either. All good people have boundries and take other pople into consideration.

It does matter if Loghain is essential or not. It matter very much. He's a  liabiltiy one cannot really afford in a big battle like this. What if he backstabbed you on your way to Redcliffe? What then? He's an unnecessary diversion, something you don't need. I'd glady throw him into a jail, but I could use the gaurds to fight. Giving him a sword and sending him to fight in the front lines...could work, but you'd still have to keep an eye on him. But making him a GW? No. No way. Simply executing him is the fastest and most efficient way to deal with it.

Your argument that Alistair should be allowed to "sit this one out" is ridiculous. He doesn't sit this one out, he leaves the Grey Wardens for good and is consumed by self loathing. And saying that maybe Alistair did fight in the battle somehow undercover is the only strawman I can see.

I'm telling you we have no idea where he was at that time. Simply assuming he left Ferelden is just as much of a strawman. Epilouge states a man fitting his description was seen outside Ferelden, getting drunk, but that was after the Archdemon was defeated. On the day of hte battle at denerim, his whereabouts are unknown.

And I am telling you he's allowed to sit this one out. Any man is allowed to quit any organization. Especially someone as messed up as Al is. I'm seriously thinking he got some form of PTST.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 décembre 2009 - 11:52 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

UltraBoy360 wrote...

I look at it this way: if things had worked out differently at Howe's estate, how would Human Noble character's feel if Riordan and King Alistair had insisted to the Human Noble PC that he/she work alongside new Grey Warden Rendon Howe to defeat the Blight. Mine would have told them to **** off and I bet 90% of HN players would have done the same, including all the one's here who think Alistair did such a bad thing.

To be honest, I had not idea this choice existed until I read the boards. I chose Alistair to fight the duel and he kills him automatically. Seemed fair and logical to let him fight for the crown.

You'd lose, especially where I'm concerned, and this just came up, again, about 2 pages back, maybe three.  I'd hate it, and I'd cuss, but since my father told me to go out and make my mark on the world, I'd do it by killing the Archdemon sans ritual because of how dirty I felt.  That's the definition of duty, it is not "I don't like what that guy did, and I'm going to take your toys and go get drunk".

Thing is, sparing Loghian is NOT your duty. It's not GW's duty. If you have means to make Loghian a Warden, then you can make someone else a Warden instead of him. So why insisting on Loghain?
For any reasons you can bring to spare him, I can give you two to kill him.

Al doesn't have to stand for it. The PC doesn't have to stand for it if Howe is involved. No sufficient reason was given.

This little block of text that you quoted and replied to refers to sparing Howe, not Loghain.  It refers to sparing Howe as a human noble.  The duty mentioned is self assigned, based on Cousland's history of putting Ferelden first, and on dialog with the PC's father as he's bleeding out on the floor.  Before you go into kneejerk mode to defend Alistair, you should be sure he's the point of contention.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Recidiva wrote...
Actually if I set dog on "Kill him if he makes a move" then I don't worry.  I also don't have to think anyone else's opinion matters.  Which is why I'm so annoyed with Alistair.  Because the game didn't give me a chance to explain how I see it.

Aa I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Al's oppinion doesn't matter. The oppinion of Fereldens doesn't matter. the oppinion of hte world doesn't matter. Interesting.

He can have as many people who want him to be an unblemished hero and as many statues as he wants.  As long as he's dead.

Having him rememebred in history as a great hero? Great punishment indeed!
Dying fighitng the Archdemon..it's probably the type of death Loghian would LIKE. So much for a terrible punishment.

I don't see this position as ironic at all.  You steadfastly hold on to your opinions, despite what people here say, and you feel perfectly justified in doing so.  Am I to take that as being "ironic" as well?  BTW, in case your knowledge of Ferelden lore is slipping a bit, there are always going to be people that remember Loghain as a great hero, no matter what you do at the Landsmeet, because prior to ingame events, he was one of Ferelden's greatest heros.  Again, don't try to ignore in game lore to support a point.  I will call you on it.  Even your PC can point out at Flemeth's hut that Loghain is known throughout Ferelden as an honorable man and a hero.  Despite in game actions, he is responsible for driving Orlais out of Ferelden, and it wasn't too very long ago either.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It does matter if Loghain is essential or not. It matter very much. He's a  liabiltiy one cannot really afford in a big battle like this. What if he backstabbed you on your way to Redcliffe? What then? He's an unnecessary diversion, something you don't need. I'd glady throw him into a jail, but I could use the gaurds to fight. Giving him a sword and sending him to fight in the front lines...could work, but you'd still have to keep an eye on him. But making him a GW? No. No way. Simply executing him is the fastest and most efficient way to deal with it.

Now this seems really hard for many people to grasp, so I'll try to break it down so everyone can understand. There are two different dilemmas here.

1. Let Loghain live or not. This is a dilemma for the player. You can, either from prgamatic or idealistic reasons decide to let Loghain die or try and make him a Grey Warden. While this is an interesting dilemma it is for the player to decide, it does not in any way test the moral integrity of Alistair as he is not involved.

2. How Alistair deals with the players decision. This is a dilemma for Alistair. If the player decides to let Loghain die, there isn't much of a test of alistairs charscter, other than he is obviously happy to see Loghain die. While this can be debatable, it's not really the question posed here. If the player let Loghain live however, then Alistair has a difficult dilemma - accept that he must fight with a man he loathes or betray the Grey Wardens and Ferelden.

This second question is where I think Alistair fails. As you should be able to see now, choosing to kill Loghain is a dilemma for the player and not something that tests Alistairs character. Just because the player can choose to NOT put Alistair in a position where his integrity is tested, doesn't mean a thing for judging his activities if he is tested.

I'm telling you we have no idea where he was at that time. Simply assuming he left Ferelden is just as much of a strawman. Epilouge states a man fitting his description was seen outside Ferelden, getting drunk, but that was after the Archdemon was defeated. On the day of hte battle at denerim, his whereabouts are unknown.

And I am telling you he's allowed to sit this one out. Any man is allowed to quit any organization. Especially someone as messed up as Al is. I'm seriously thinking he got some form of PTST.

We do now what happens if you make Alistair marry Anora, but let Loghain live. He sits and sulks in his room, according to Anora. If you choose to believe that Anora is not a reliable witness, then at least you should consider the fact that Ferelden has to go to war without the moral boost of having it's King-to-be at it's head, because he is home nurturing his bruised ego. 

I am sure he is messed up, that's why my character didn't want him to be King. He may even be a case of PTST for all I know, but that really seems stretching it. I have repeatedly stated that I can understand why Alistair fails. But just because it's understandable, doesn't make it right. Can we at least agree that it would be better for Ferelden if he could get his act together and grudgingly accept to fight beside Loghain, if the player for whatever reason (good or bad) lets Loghain live?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 décembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
GW are vital to slaying the archdemon, and Alistair knows that. There are 3 Wardens total in all of Ferelden. If the most experienced GW, Riordan, makes such a suggestion, it is safe to assume that he has a reason.

Actually, at that point he doesn't.
Al left the group, and I'm not saying that was a wise choice or that I'd do the same. But I can undersand him very well and it is within his right to leave.

Anyway, like I keep saying, I have no problem understanding Alistair's reasoning. I agree, Loghain is a dirtball. I would even understand Alistair leaving the group. I do not understand him betraying Ferelden, Duncan, Eamon, all of the GW's, and all of the allies, turning and leaving Ferelden to rot under the Darkspawn.

But he didn't betray them. He gathered an army and helped unite the army - what more do you really want from him. He's been fihgitng hte good fight for 2 years non-stop. Let him sit this battle out.

It's not betrayl. you dont' really need him (at that point). 1 man more or less doesn' matter when you have an entire army. And he's certanl not a coawrd and did more than his share of hte fighting.
It is a weakness of character, but not betrayl.

Also, WE DO NOT KNOW WHERE AL WAS DURING THE BATTLE.

Alistair did not gather and unite the army.  As to where he was during the battle, according to the epilog, he was taking a ship to go get drunk.  He betrayed everything that the PC built, since the PC can build this entire army, while Alistair sits in camp, playing with his dolls.  It is the "duty" of a GW to stop the blight, and according to you, even to die to do so.  It's funny how you can flip this script for Alistair.  I realize you post a lot hoping that people won't read your opinions in other threads, but if the Dark Ritual is bad, and shouldn't be done, even though the blight ends, then running off to get drunk is also bad, even though the blight ends.  Attributing everything the PC accomplishes up to the Landsmeet to Alistair is the height of arrogance, since, as I boldly pointed out, in my recent playthrough, my City Elf has no place in his group for a whiner that cannot even take responsibility for leading the GW's.  He made me leader, and I took it, and left him sitting in camp, since Lothering.  He will turn up after we save Eamon, since Eamon will snitch him out, but after that, he goes right back to camp.

So, since all of this can be done with Alistair in camp, what army does he build?

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
No, I really do not see the irony in it. Is ignoring personal feelings, whether it is my feelings or that of my companions, in order to maximize the chance that we win the battle against the Archdemon petty? In what possible way so? There is no way any sane general would have people nurture their ego's instead of fighting on a Battle like Denerim. It's THE battle and we are outnumbered.

It doesn't matter if Loghain isn't essential or not. If we are to stop the End of the World and are outnumbered, then every man counts. When the enemy is at the gates and outnumbers you three to one, you give free pardon to prisoners who are willing to man the walls.

If you're willing to ignore everyones feelings in a zealous pursuit of a single goal, then you're not fit to lead either. All good people have boundries and take other pople into consideration.

It does matter if Loghain is essential or not. It matter very much. He's a  liabiltiy one cannot really afford in a big battle like this. What if he backstabbed you on your way to Redcliffe? What then? He's an unnecessary diversion, something you don't need. I'd glady throw him into a jail, but I could use the gaurds to fight. Giving him a sword and sending him to fight in the front lines...could work, but you'd still have to keep an eye on him. But making him a GW? No. No way. Simply executing him is the fastest and most efficient way to deal with it.

Your argument that Alistair should be allowed to "sit this one out" is ridiculous. He doesn't sit this one out, he leaves the Grey Wardens for good and is consumed by self loathing. And saying that maybe Alistair did fight in the battle somehow undercover is the only strawman I can see.

I'm telling you we have no idea where he was at that time. Simply assuming he left Ferelden is just as much of a strawman. Epilouge states a man fitting his description was seen outside Ferelden, getting drunk, but that was after the Archdemon was defeated. On the day of hte battle at denerim, his whereabouts are unknown.

And I am telling you he's allowed to sit this one out. Any man is allowed to quit any organization. Especially someone as messed up as Al is. I'm seriously thinking he got some form of PTST.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.  So while this addage is historically correct, when dealing with Alistair, it's false?  The need for revenge of one man is more important than saving an entire country?  Yet you call others petty.

It is not assumed he left Ferelden.  It is clearly stated in the epilog that he left Ferelden after the Landsmeet in the epilog.  Since the entire army first goes to Redcliffe, and then comes back to Denerim, he's good and gone before the final battle.  Again, ignoring information that is gleaned in game to give Alistair some glory isn't going to work.  By the time the armies storm Denerim, which could easily be a month after the Landsmeet, he's well gone.

BTW, the "duty that cannot be forsworn" doesn't mean that you can't flee a battle, if your that much of a coward.  It means that no matter what, the taint is going to claim you.  You drink some blood, choke on it and pass out.  This is not undone by saying "I quit".  He is still a Grey Warden, he can quit fighting, but he can't stop being a Warden.  You postulate that it's a Grey Warden's duty to fight the Blight/darkspawn, but it's ok to choose your battles?  Choosing not to get involved in the Civil War is cool, but choosing to ignore the Blight is not.  After all, by every definition you have ever given, it's a GW's duty to fight the Blight.

[Default137]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm..no. Loghain isn't the greatest general/hero the world has ever known. He is a legenday Ferelden general who's grown old and insane. Even if you do spare him, he doesn't end up leading your armies.
PC is nobody? Alistair is nobody? Eamon is nobody? Ferleden has capable officers and generals, heck even the dwarves sent some of their own.

Quite the opposite. Sparing him is insane. I listed the reasons before. He's unstable, dangerous and untrustworthy. A political liabiltiy with enough pull and influence to backstab you in the last moment. A traitor and salver who caused, both directly and indirectly, the death and torture of thousands and led the country into a civil war. From a moral standpoint, how would the armies feel knowing that a man who betrayed their friends and family and abandoned hteir king is leading them? Even before hte Landsmeet there were doubts about him. Now, after he is exposed, the totality of his crimes will be apparent to everyone.

My point is that you don't NEED him. If you want antoher warden to take the blow, you can find willing recruits. Heck a, murderer or a petty criminal from any jail would do.


I bet that's what he keeps telling himself when he goes to sleep. The battleplan at Ostagar was his. The battle was winnable. We have more than enough in-game evidence to support this. Loghain is just in denail.
Cailan was not a moron for going into battle.
The evidence is agaist you in this one.

Actually, at the present time, he is one of the best generals in Ferelden, or did you not pay attention during the whole Ostagar bit? Everyone, Cailan, Duncan, Wrynne, they all agree to this, and his status as a hero is cemented in the books, and shows by how all his troops would follow him to the ends of the earth.

To the average Ferelden citizen, Loghain is a hero, he's the guy people would name their children after in the hopes they might one day be like him, even after his betrayel was exposed at the Landsmeet, all the nobles present, as well as most of your party sans Alistar were still very opposed to killing him, because he was just such a hero to Ferelden.

And if you honestly think Loghain would backstab you as you went off to face the Archdemon, you totally ignored learning about his character throughout the game, and your character would have no idea whatsoever of Fereldens past, Loghain is absurdly loyal to Ferelden, he would die for the country ten times over if he had to, the only reason he left Cailan is because the battle was already lost, and if he charged in, Ferelden would have no soliders left standing to guard against Orlais ( His exact wording, then he points out it was probably for the best anyway since a Blight ended up occuring )

You are about to go face an Archdemon, something that could easily destroy Ferelden forever, what do you think he's going to do ( remember, he is the type of person who would gladly die ten fold to defeat something that could threaten Ferelden ), even if he's as stupid and "thug evil" as you claim, nobody is stupid enough to try pulling the same coup twice, because he would know nobody in the Landsmeet would support him.

And yes the battleplan was Cailans, they even said so in the very beginning, he mentions its "my plan" and that Loghain had best go over it, while going over it Loghain says in a few words that its the stupidest thing he's ever heard, and all evidence points that they have been argueing over this for several days now, meaning Loghain didn't exactly like Cailans plan at all.

Save Loghain once, talk to him with Wrynne nearby about Ostagar, she confirms everything he says, that it was the Kings plan, that by the time the fire was lit, they had already lost the fight, and even had Loghain charged in, he would have most likely not been able to do anything, due to the massive amounts of Darkspawn, and just how much of the Kings force was dead, considering WRYNNE is confirming this, I don't think Loghain is just trying to glorify himself here.

So uh, your evidence was what again?