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[robertthebard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

So, to fix this situation we need to add: Riordan conscripting Loghain and then gutting Maric's heir in front of the whole of Ferelden nobility for his reaction to it, then a fight where PC has to chose between Ferelden or the Grey Wardens.... =D

Alistair drew first...

[SinYang]

Nah we need a "Ask Jowan to poison alistair" option  Since you have the ashes, no cure.
Grey warden secrets safe & no one has to know this.

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

So, to fix this situation we need to add: Riordan conscripting Loghain and then gutting Maric's heir in front of the whole of Ferelden nobility for his reaction to it, then a fight where PC has to chose between Ferelden or the Grey Wardens.... =D

It's not like people there aren't accustomed to gutting.  It's what I'd done for most of the game in order to survive at all.  And it's the solution to every major problem.

How Alistair can retain his naive mindest is a mystery to me.  Except that he spent the entire game making me solve everything on my own.  None of which are good points in his favor in this situation.

I can't reconcile it with the tone of the rest of the game at all.   The only thing I see is a plot chokepoint and an awesome character forced to go braindead suddenly.  The psychological issues are completely overwhelmed by the plot requirements and game canon itself and everything the game taught me about the game itself goes out the window at that point. 

Apparently if Ser Jory had felt "really extra specially strongly" about leaving the Grey Wardens, before he'd even joined, Duncan should have let him go so he could go be a drunk.

I could have just asked for a "can I be excused because this is icky" pass.

But apparently Alistair is specialler than everyone and he gets his way.  Inexplicably.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[SarEnyaDor]

I'm in the camp who would have loved to have been given the option to try and pull a Jory and been met with death cut-scene and a "your journey ends" screen though, so maybe I'm messed up.

[SinYang]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I'm in the camp who would have loved to have been given the option to try and pull a Jory and been met with death cut-scene and a "your journey ends" screen though, so maybe I'm messed up.

Same here, I think its a shame that the game doesnt offer you even more options, Joinings for example... some randomness? Perhaps Daveth surviving if only to help out at the tower? then die? your PC dying..
Loghain dying from the ritual. What would Alistair say then? Sorry can i comeback now?

Modifié par SinYang, 27 décembre 2009 - 02:40 .

[Crunchyinmilk]

SarEnyaDor wrote...
I just really fail to see the logic in sparing [Loghain] at that point, pre-why-we-need-Grey-Wardens talk, unless of course you just make a habit of sparing everyone.

I do not dethrone the rightful and respected leader of Fereldan out of habit. Supporting the Queen gets you everything you need to see the blight dealt with. Dethroning her for any reason is you exploiting the blight for your own (or Eamon's) ends (and you should be ashamed!).

I actually like Anora, she's the sharpest female in the entire game, but she has a giant blindspot. Her father. Cowed in front of his supporters and leashed, he's an excellent bargaining chip in future negotiations with her. Particularly if you're a male noble, entering into a marriage of convenience with her.

Killing Loghain is vengeance anyway, not justice. Far better that he be put towards making amends for the mess he caused. Even Riordin suggests the compulsion of the joining will effect him. No matter how disloyal he could turn out to be, he must seek out darkspawn just as they will seek him out. You don't need to know about the Archdemon clause to see a use for him, you've even been to Orzammar and seen their justice system.

Alistair's dummy spit is proof enough he's no rightful king, without someone to prop him up he completely collapses. He can't be serious for more than 1 and a half seconds and he has no ambition. I could give a **** if he appoints a single elf to the ruling council (for all the fat lot of good that would do). Even when playing as a city elf he's not someone I would want anywhere near the throne. Perhaps if I was a Dalish elf hoping to weaken the human nation.

The only time I ever seriously consider Alistair for king is when I'm playing a manipulative bastard in need of a puppet. I would have liked the option to kill off Eamon too in this scenario. I hate Eamon on principle, and especially that he must be saved in every game because of his "magical landsmeet calling power".

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 27 décembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Kinaori]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Duncan imo would've slapped Alastair silly or worse run him through for trying to desert his duty as a Warden.

Also imo it isn't just a 'Desertion of the Wardens' but a 'Desertion of Ferelden', they need all able bodied men and women that can fight to do so and Alastair thinks he can just walk away from that. Sorry but the only way he could do that is if he is King and if he isn't then it is either fight or be like that guy in the cell at Ostagar.

The same applies to Loghain, making him a Warden really brings the hammer home that he is obligated to take part in the battle. Forget all that honor rubbish that is just hype created by people whom don't truly know what it is to be a Warden. For one thing, Wardens can be anyone, from the lowest of the low cuthroat murdering rogues to the noble knights. Honor has nothing to do with it, having the ability to fight the darkspawn to the death does. Loghain has that ability, to not utilise it in some respects would be stupid, unless you really did think he deserved death for what he did. Alastair throwing a hissyfit, that is Alastair's issue not the Wardens. Although if the Warden is to take up the mantle of leader he should really have the option at that point to state to Alastair that he either sticks to his task or prepares to meet the maker.

Yah, you'd think that would've gone through Alistair's head at least for a moment, "What would Duncan do?".  And yes, you make a good point about the Warden having the option to treat him to a Ser Jory moment.  Ouch, what a painful decision that would be...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Recidiva wrote...



But Alistair and the game writers should know that if Riordan is a Gray Warden the same way Duncan was a Grey Warden, Alistair would have been gutted right then to protect Gray Warden secrets, as he is no longer loyal to them in any way.

And that's the point at which I think Alistair's brain should have spontaneously exploded and saved me the trouble of dealing with his inability to think straight.

It's not a benefit to "feel crooked" over "thinking straight" when the penalty for being dumb in the game is messy, ugly, instant death.  Alistair not picking up on that just makes it worse.

It's already been stated that gutting Alistair, a possible future king, in front of an assembly of nobles, by a foreign Grey Warden, with no reasons given other than "sorry, it's top secret" is a very bad idea. Simply gutting someone for disagreement in front of Landsmeet would not be smart. And as we already know, Alistair and your character never got "the talk" regarding Grey Wardens and Archdemons.

What would have been nice is if there was the option, when Riordan tells your Warden "look, I can't tell you now why, but I will when we are alone" and then you have the option to toss Loghain in a cell before you decide his fate. Maybe then, with learning the full story, having time time to cool off, and a Senior Warden explaining things,  he might reconsider, or be open to other ideas. 

However, in game, the situation is one for swift and harsh descision making, and since the only reason given to Alistair for recruiting Loghain is "senior Warden wants thinks it's a great idea, so we don't give a rats ass if he destroyed everyone you cared about, shake hands and welcome your newest buddy", well, then naturally, Alistair snapping at that point makes perfect sense. I would, in his shoes, Warden duties or no.

[robertthebard]

Just one curious point about Alistair's character here. Does anyone not notice that he doesn't like anyone in your party? I've only triggered this dialog once, in a romance, so I'm not sure if the romance is required or not, but in the "Who's in camp" dialog, he doesn't like any of the party members you discuss, and manipulates your answers to Leliana to suit what he thinks. The funny thing is, I had high approval with everyone in camp at this point. So not liking additions to the party isn't anything new. You get disapproval from Zevran and Shale though when you add them, although, it may well be that I tell Shale to attack Alistair if I have him in party.

[robertthebard]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Recidiva wrote...



But Alistair and the game writers should know that if Riordan is a Gray Warden the same way Duncan was a Grey Warden, Alistair would have been gutted right then to protect Gray Warden secrets, as he is no longer loyal to them in any way.

And that's the point at which I think Alistair's brain should have spontaneously exploded and saved me the trouble of dealing with his inability to think straight.

It's not a benefit to "feel crooked" over "thinking straight" when the penalty for being dumb in the game is messy, ugly, instant death.  Alistair not picking up on that just makes it worse.

It's already been stated that gutting Alistair, a possible future king, in front of an assembly of nobles, by a foreign Grey Warden, with no reasons given other than "sorry, it's top secret" is a very bad idea. Simply gutting someone for disagreement in front of Landsmeet would not be smart. And as we already know, Alistair and your character never got "the talk" regarding Grey Wardens and Archdemons.

What would have been nice is if there was the option, when Riordan tells your Warden "look, I can't tell you now why, but I will when we are alone" and then you have the option to toss Loghain in a cell before you decide his fate. Maybe then, with learning the full story, having time time to cool off, and a Senior Warden explaining things,  he might reconsider, or be open to other ideas. 

However, in game, the situation is one for swift and harsh descision making, and since the only reason given to Alistair for recruiting Loghain is "senior Warden wants thinks it's a great idea, so we don't give a rats ass if he destroyed everyone you cared about, shake hands and welcome your newest buddy", well, then naturally, Alistair snapping at that point makes perfect sense. I would, in his shoes, Warden duties or no.

Alistair doesn't bat an eye when Jory is killed, even attributes his death to the Joining.  No where in any dialog is Alistair upset about any one but Duncan's death.  In fact, he keeps his relationship to Cailin a secret until you find out about it, which ever way you find out.  It is also pretty evident that they, Cailin and Alistair, aren't close.

Stating that gutting Alistair is a bad idea doesn't float, since it's pretty obvious by his blow up that he's not going to be the ideal King.  Eamon doesn't put him forward as King because of his capability to rule, he puts him forward because he's Maric's son.  This is the only reason.  So it doesn't really matter.  If we are to this point, then Alistair has already tried to take the crown from Anora, a move that is frowned upon when Loghain does it, simply to kill Loghain.  The fact is, Alistair ends up a puppet on the throne, no matter how you go about putting him there.  Either Anora, Eamon, or the PC are pulling his strings.

[ejoslin]

OnionXI wrote...

Alistair doesn't "lie about his heritage" he simply isn't forthcoming with you about his history if a) he doesn't like you or he's not with you. Lying and simply not telling are very different things imo.

PC: Arl Eamon isn't your father?  Do you know who is?
Alistair: It doesn't matter.  He died before my mother did.

He lies straight out when asked.  And when you ask him about it later, he admits he should have told you right after the battle.  Think about it.  The king is dead and Alistair is now heir to the throne.  And Loghain knows it.  He's already wiped out everyone else who would have a claim (and YES, killing the Couslands was part of that as many lords already thought that Bryce Cousland should be king).

The reason Alistair doesn't give you this information is irrelevant; whether he doesn't like you or whether he likes you not knowing, he knows he was wrong not to tell you.  

[ResoluteOne]

LynxAQ wrote...
At least you where honest enough to admit that Alistair lied to you about his motivations from the start. The fact is throughout the whole recruiting army process, Alistair did not care about it, all he was waiting for was to get his vengeance. He didnt care about the blight or the arch demon, else he wouldnt abandon the fight.

What are you talking about Alistair lied?  He made it very clear that
getting rid of Logain had to be a top priority all the way back
starting at Flemeth's hut when you are rescued.  Even Flemeth immedietly points out the idiocy of trying to get Logain to see the error of his ways and gives you the treaties to build an army without him.  There are multiple conversations in different areas talking about if Logain can be defeated in battle of even assasinated.  The quest up to now has been to stop Logain.  All the main characters agree that is necessary before the blight can be addressed.  Is it an accident that the one who proposes this change is from Orlais and probably doesn't know half of what had been going on?  It is a simple fact that choosing to make him a Warden is a 180 degree plot change.  If you the PC can come up with some kind of reason why you want to go
along with that well so be it, but for Alistair it is not only in
character it is the entire culmination of what he has been doing and
saying the whole time.

[Recidiva]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It's already been stated that gutting Alistair, a possible future king, in front of an assembly of nobles, by a foreign Grey Warden, with no reasons given other than "sorry, it's top secret" is a very bad idea. Simply gutting someone for disagreement in front of Landsmeet would not be smart. And as we already know, Alistair and your character never got "the talk" regarding Grey Wardens and Archdemons.

What would have been nice is if there was the option, when Riordan tells your Warden "look, I can't tell you now why, but I will when we are alone" and then you have the option to toss Loghain in a cell before you decide his fate. Maybe then, with learning the full story, having time time to cool off, and a Senior Warden explaining things,  he might reconsider, or be open to other ideas. 

However, in game, the situation is one for swift and harsh descision making, and since the only reason given to Alistair for recruiting Loghain is "senior Warden wants thinks it's a great idea, so we don't give a rats ass if he destroyed everyone you cared about, shake hands and welcome your newest buddy", well, then naturally, Alistair snapping at that point makes perfect sense. I would, in his shoes, Warden duties or no.

So much of the game is a bad idea I find it impossible to consider one bad idea out of hundreds to be an exception.  Everything's a radically bad idea.  There isn't a single game resolution that is solved with diplomacy.  It's all about force.  Violence "solves" everything in Ferelden.  It's not out of character or out of game lore or canon to do that exactly.  Harrowmont is executed, Bhelen breaks into violence, if you don't "win" the votes at Landsmeet by doing favors for everyone and lying to Anora, there's a big brawl.  It makes no sense to think that brawling and murder isn't the accepted and required solution to every problem.  Every single game point is solved by lots and lots of people who opposed you dying.

At this point in the game, I'd just kicked Loghain's ass and Riordan's better than me (He's orange.  I've checked.) and there's no reason for every noble there in the Ferelden version of formal wear to think they wouldn't die rather nastily either right then, or in their sleep, if they defy the Grey Wardens.  We didn't get there by being bright and shiny, we got there by creating tributaries that created rivers of blood that we swam straight to Denerim.

Fine, do what he did.  I'd assume you'd die horribly for it because the rest of the game demands it be so.

It's immensely immersion breaking to have Alistair be the only character who can have ideals and personal attachments that take precedence over...say...the future of Ferelden...and have no consequences for sticking to them other than being able to slack off and go get drunk.

Hell, I would have happily slacked off and gotten drunk during several game points, but the opportunity never presented itself.  All I get is "no" or "death" as a choice.

Even if you ask Alistair "what would happen if we just left" he hates you for it.  Oh, irony!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

robertthebard wrote...

Just one curious point about Alistair's character here. Does anyone not notice that he doesn't like anyone in your party? I've only triggered this dialog once, in a romance, so I'm not sure if the romance is required or not, but in the "Who's in camp" dialog, he doesn't like any of the party members you discuss, and manipulates your answers to Leliana to suit what he thinks. The funny thing is, I had high approval with everyone in camp at this point. So not liking additions to the party isn't anything new. You get disapproval from Zevran and Shale though when you add them, although, it may well be that I tell Shale to attack Alistair if I have him in party.

Uh, no, I'm not sure what you mean. When he asks for your opinion of the party, the only one he clearly doesn't like is Morrigan, and Zevran to some extent.. The others he is either neutral or unsure. He does like Wynne alot. When discussing Sten, it's clear that he expresses positive and negative opinions, and is confused, because Sten, despite his cold, hardened warrior persona and admission to murdering a family, seems honorable and wise, and he even says that Stens beliefs are not evil like the Chantry claims. He asks about leliana because of her visions, because he isn't quite sure if she's crazy, or might have had an actual vision, though if you call her bat-**** crazy, he will point out that there might have been something to it.

With Oghren, his only complaint is the excessive drinking and projectile vomiting. But otherwise, he seems to like the dwarf, especially when he goes off on and starts cursing Morrigan. Zevran he doesn't seem to like much, which could be a combination of the fact that he tried to kill you both, and in the case of a female, is feeling a bit jealous. Morrigan is the only one he seems to possess a clear and firm loathing of, no surprise there. Disapproval of letting shale join is probably from the fact that you learn the golem basically flipped out and killed her last master, and seems to have a psychotic love of squishing things.

In party banters, it's clear that he does get along with most of them just fine.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Yeah, no, the really strange bit is that you suddenly get to have Loghain join the Wardens. You beat the man in a duel and BAM, he has a complete change of mind and all past sins are forgotten? Most sudden plot twist ever, even worse and random than Saren to shoot himself in the head in Mass Effect, just because you are ''persuasive''.



I can totally understand why Alistair wouldn't accept it. Loghain killed his brother, killed his mentor and surrogate father, imprisoned him, sent assassins after him to kill him... and now we suddenly play nice with the bastard?

[ResoluteOne]

Forget Alistair for a second. You players who think it is in any way logical or productive for Ferelden to recruit him make no sense. Sure it is a plot option. But there are a lot of plot options that are just fun or interesting but don't necessarily make that much sense. Until someone can explain why it makes sense at all.....then faulting Alistair for not going along is pointless.   Remember Riorden is from Orlais and out of the loop. Every other main charcter in the story has agreed getting rid of Logain is the priority.  But when Alistair has the balls to actually enforce and carry out what he has been complaining about the whole time, somehow that is the part that is wrong?

Modifié par ResoluteOne, 27 décembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[SinYang]

How is forcing someone to undertake a possibly deadly ritual.. nice? out of character, I didnt want to leave the couslands to join the wardens... frankly if it was me, id stay kill them all or die trying... not follow duncan - good job too otherwise there would be no game - id be like alistair.



Your looking at this from the outcome not the choices granted...



Loghain



1. Take the Ritual... Death/Life.

2. Die.



Alistair may have had a point *if* Loghain survived the ritual.. *then* he went ape.

[Recidiva]

ResoluteOne wrote...

Forget Alistair for a second. You players who think it is in any way logical or productive for Ferelden to recruit him make no sense. Sure it is a plot option. But there are a lot of plot options that are just fun or interesting but don't necessarily make that much sense. Until someone can explain why it makes sense at all.....then faulting Alistair for not going along is pointless.   Remember Riorden is from Orlais and out of the loop. Every other main charcter in the story has agreed getting rid of Logain is the priority.  But when Alistair has the balls to actually enforce and carry out what he has been complaining about the whole time, somehow that is the part that is wrong?

It makes complete and total sense if you hate Duncan and hate the Grey Wardens in general, but had no choice about joining.

Turning Loghain into a Grey Warden is the worst thing I could do to him.  It's torture and a death sentence all wrapped up in a fun bloody ugly package.  It's PERFECT. 

I can like Alistair and appreciate that his experience with the Grey Wardens was apparently more fun than summer camp and Duncan was his favoritest counselor ever.

Doesn't mean my character agrees...ever.

Playing twice just means that I know I'm going to feed him to an archdemon.  Even better!  WOO HOO!

Riordan is not out of the loop.  He knows Loghain is responsible for his being captured and tortured.  I'm with him.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 décembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Kinaori wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Duncan imo would've slapped Alastair silly or worse run him through for trying to desert his duty as a Warden.

Also imo it isn't just a 'Desertion of the Wardens' but a 'Desertion of Ferelden', they need all able bodied men and women that can fight to do so and Alastair thinks he can just walk away from that. Sorry but the only way he could do that is if he is King and if he isn't then it is either fight or be like that guy in the cell at Ostagar.

The same applies to Loghain, making him a Warden really brings the hammer home that he is obligated to take part in the battle. Forget all that honor rubbish that is just hype created by people whom don't truly know what it is to be a Warden. For one thing, Wardens can be anyone, from the lowest of the low cuthroat murdering rogues to the noble knights. Honor has nothing to do with it, having the ability to fight the darkspawn to the death does. Loghain has that ability, to not utilise it in some respects would be stupid, unless you really did think he deserved death for what he did. Alastair throwing a hissyfit, that is Alastair's issue not the Wardens. Although if the Warden is to take up the mantle of leader he should really have the option at that point to state to Alastair that he either sticks to his task or prepares to meet the maker.

Yah, you'd think that would've gone through Alistair's head at least for a moment, "What would Duncan do?".  And yes, you make a good point about the Warden having the option to treat him to a Ser Jory moment.  Ouch, what a painful decision that would be...

Of course keeping the tradition of saying "I'm sorry!" as you sink the sword through his guts just as Duncan did Ser Jory with the same music playing as when the PC went through the ritual.

Either that or something like this

PC: "It's over Alastair, I have the higher ground, don't try leaving..."
*Alastair attempts to leave, but is gutted by the PC*
PC: "You were Duncan's chosen one! It's said you would kiss his feet not spit on them! Defeat the Blight not turn your back on it!"
Alastair: "I HATE YOU!"
PC: "You were my <insert Brother, Sister or Lover here> Alastair, I loved you!"
*PC steps away as Alastair dies*

Hmm, now I've written that, yes Alastair reminds me a lot of Whiny-kin

[Recidiva]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Of course keeping the tradition of saying "I'm sorry!" as you sink the sword through his guts just as Duncan did Ser Jory with the same music playing as when the PC went through the ritual.

Either that or something like this

PC: "It's over Alastair, I have the higher ground, don't try leaving..."
*Alastair attempts to leave, but is gutted by the PC*
PC: "You were Duncan's chosen one! It's said you would kiss his feet not spit on them! Defeat the Blight not turn your back on it!"
Alastair: "I HATE YOU!"
PC: "You were my Alastair, I loved you!"
*PC steps away as Alastair dies*

Hmm, now I've written that, yes Alastair reminds me a lot of Whiny-kin

That's right.  Being a Gray Warden means never having to say I'm sorry...and mean it.

[Squiggles1334]

What I find more interesting about Alistair compared to the rest of the party is how he stacks up to Leliana. Both are considered the "Good-aligned" characters with certain ostensibly noble virtues and values.

Yet it seems there are a number of cases where, when faced with moral choices, their opinions on the matter differ significantly, especially as demonstrated by approval gains/losses. Leliana approves of recruiting Sten, releasing Jowan, and recruiting Zevran*. Alistair seemed to be against all of those choices. Leliana's response to moral choice typically is to offer the opportunity of redemtion whereas Alistair's response to moral choice is to destroy the offending entity. In my party when it came to moral choice, I think I've seen Leliana agree more times with Morrigan than with Alistair. Oddly enough, it seems like both of their approaches to Right And Wrong stem from their experiences in the Chantry, one as a lay-sister and the other as a pre-vows templar.

I guess this is why I like the lack of a point-based alignment system, because I have a hard time accepting that both Leliana and Alistair are from the same corner of the alignment pool. And no, "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" does not adequately explain away the difference. Thoughts?

* To be fair, Leliana came across in a more practical mindset in this choice. She knew what Antivan Crows are potentially capable of while Alistair didn't and simply saw Zevran as another guy who tried to kill the PC.

[SarEnyaDor]

That's because Alistair is a vengeful eye-for-an-eye Lawful good type, not a redemption-is-greeeeaaat! Chaotic good like Leliana.

edited to add rest of my post that went away

I think the defining characteristic is the lawful vs chaotic not the good part. I always played Neutral Good, laws were all good most of the time, but not all of the time, and doing good for good's sake alone isn't enough.

I do prefer DA:O system a bit better, it is more realistic (aside from blatant bribing for favor LOL) because no matter how goody-goody palidin-ish you might be, there will be something you can't do, ala Alastair melt down.

People are flawed creatures, no one lives up to their ideals all the time, and I love how this game smacks you in the face with good people doing horrible stuff and horrible people *cough* Bhelen *cough* can do great things.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 27 décembre 2009 - 04:09 .

[Recidiva]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

What I find more interesting about Alistair compared to the rest of the party is how he stacks up to Leliana. Both are considered the "Good-aligned" characters with certain ostensibly noble virtues and values.

Yet it seems there are a number of cases where, when faced with moral choices, their opinions on the matter differ significantly, especially as demonstrated by approval gains/losses. Leliana approves of recruiting Sten, releasing Jowan, and recruiting Zevran*. Alistair seemed to be against all of those choices. Leliana's response to moral choice typically is to offer the opportunity of redemtion whereas Alistair's response to moral choice is to destroy the offending entity. In my party when it came to moral choice, I think I've seen Leliana agree more times with Morrigan than with Alistair. Oddly enough, it seems like both of their approaches to Right And Wrong stem from their experiences in the Chantry, one as a lay-sister and the other as a pre-vows templar.

I guess this is why I like the lack of a point-based alignment system, because I have a hard time accepting that both Leliana and Alistair are from the same corner of the alignment pool. And no, "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" does not adequately explain away the difference. Thoughts?

* To be fair, Leliana came across in a more practical mindset in this choice. She knew what Antivan Crows are potentially capable of while Alistair didn't and simply saw Zevran as another guy who tried to kill the PC.

I think Alistair is more lawful than good.  Leliana is more moral than good.

They are following pre-set rules.  They don't really think. 

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Recidiva wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Of course keeping the tradition of saying "I'm sorry!" as you sink the sword through his guts just as Duncan did Ser Jory with the same music playing as when the PC went through the ritual.

Either that or something like this

PC: "It's over Alastair, I have the higher ground, don't try leaving..."
*Alastair attempts to leave, but is gutted by the PC*
PC: "You were Duncan's chosen one! It's said you would kiss his feet not spit on them! Defeat the Blight not turn your back on it!"
Alastair: "I HATE YOU!"
PC: "You were my Alastair, I loved you!"
*PC steps away as Alastair dies*

Hmm, now I've written that, yes Alastair reminds me a lot of Whiny-kin

That's right.  Being a Gray Warden means never having to say I'm sorry...and mean it.

I believe Duncan did mean it, IMHO he comes across as someone whom feels guilt for believing that Daveth would pass the ritual and that Ser Jory would go through with it. Thus as he was proven wrong, he feels that he let them down by putting them through the ordeal.

In the Wardens case of killing Alastair he would feel it be his duty to do what the Wardens would do. Once you are a Warden, you are one for life, till death do you part from the realm either from death in battle or from it being 'your time', not from walking away from your duties and going off to get drunk in various taverns.

[SarEnyaDor]

It's time to come clean - I have the same problem with the Grey Wardens that I do with the Jedi - you can try all you like to divorce a person from their emotions, but short of making them Tranquil it WON'T work, and eventually you'll tell a young man not to rescue his mother when it was actually possible, he'll find her dying and snap and destroy the universe as we know it ... or leave your group and become a drunk or headless.

There are reasons people are called heroes when they put others lives before their own, because it is rare. Becoming a Grey Warden doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a tainted person with a shortened lifespan who is exactly the same the next day as he was the day before - whether that is tragically naive or ruthless, good or bad, greedy or generous.

I find it hilarious that people are outraged over Alistair's tantrum - it is what MOST real life people would do. Most people react first, re-think later. There was no time for re-thinking, and there was sketchy info given that was at all remotely likely to change his mind. He is a human, not a freaking paragon (and from what I've seen of the dwarf Paragons they aren't all that great, either)

People walk away from their duties ALL THE TIME for various pathetic reasons that usually aren't even as visceral as letting a guy go who killed your surrogate father, all of your friends and destroyed the country - just look at American politicians and sports figures as of late if you can't think of any examples of people totally forgetting their duty for meaningless things.

So I really don't see how Alistair can't be forgiven reacting like a human being, but Loghain can be forgiven for all of his crimes....

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 27 décembre 2009 - 04:56 .