353 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

I believe Duncan did mean it, IMHO he comes across as someone whom feels guilt for believing that Daveth would pass the ritual and that Ser Jory would go through with it. Thus as he was proven wrong, he feels that he let them down by putting them through the ordeal.

In the Wardens case of killing Alastair he would feel it be his duty to do what the Wardens would do. Once you are a Warden, you are one for life, till death do you part from the realm either from death in battle or from it being 'your time', not from walking away from your duties and going off to get drunk in various taverns.

Duncan might be sorry that killing someone is a necessity.

However, he's not sorry enough to ensure it isn't a necessity by...informed consent or anything like that.

So there are degrees of "sorry" here.

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

It's time to come clean - I have the same problem with the Grey Wardens that I do with the Jedi - you can try all you like to divorce a person from their emotions, but short of making them Tranquil it WON'T work, and eventually you'll tell a young man not to rescue his mother when it was actually possible, he'll find her dying and snap and destroy the universe as we know it ... or leave your group and become a drunk or headless.

There are reasons people are called heroes when they put others lives before their own, because it is rare. Becoming a Grey Warden doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a tainted person with a shortened lifespan who is exactly the same the next day as he was the day before - whether that is tragically naive or ruthless, good or bad, greedy or generous.

I find it hilarious that people are outraged over Alistair's tantrum - it is what MOST real life people would do. Most people react first, re-think later. There was no time for re-thinking, and there was sketchy info given that was at all remotely likely to change his mind. He is a human, not a freaking paragon (and from what I've seen of the dwarf Paragons they aren't all that great, either)

People walk away from their duties ALL THE TIME for various pathetic reasons that usually aren't even as visceral as letting a guy go who killed your surrogate father, all of your friends and destroyed the country - just look at American politicians and sports figures as of late if you can't think of any examples of people totally forgetting their duty for meaningless things.

So I really don't see how Alistair can be forgiven reacting like a human being, but Loghain can be forgiven for all of his crimes....

Well, in this case if Alistair or Loghain were only fictional characters, fine.  Forgiveness or lack thereof is irrelevant.

If they're both in my game and I have to deal with their sorry selves, I get to have opinions.  I don't think either one of them are shining examples of heroism.

My particular grievance is having both characters be immune to logic.

That may be "human" but it's not helpful and it's not a game mechanic I enjoy.  Things making sense is good.

I treat Loghain as crazy and Alistair as narcissistic as the closest way to explain why they do what they do.  As my character doesn't really have the option anywhere along the way to be either of those things and survive the game, that explains lack of patience.

Player characters are also human, thus explaining the variance in attitudes and solutions.

[SarEnyaDor]

Bah! Players aren't humans!! We're god-like beings controlling people with our point and clicks god-like powers....

[TrueAlucard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Bah! Players aren't humans!! We're god-like beings controlling people with our point and clicks god-like powers....

 We are not talking about "The Sims." lol

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Bah! Players aren't humans!! We're god-like beings controlling people with our point and clicks god-like powers....

*snicker*

In contrast, lots of other characters form their own logic and then follow it.

Morrigan is entirely unbending and I consider her beautifully written and performed, and her loyalty to Flemeth is explained out of her fear and power hunger.  I get it.  No problem with her ditching me in the end if I don't do it her way.

Alistair just had too many attributes to his character, and most of them unable to predict how he'd behave at Landsmeet.

I think Alistair just suffered from having to be key to too many plot twists and needed to be split into three characters:  The grizzled veteran Grey Warden who leads in the beginning, the completely lost to the world waif that latches onto the leading Grey Warden in some sort of weird Stockholm Syndrome, and the proposed King Of The World. 

Too many masters to serve.

And in the end, although he might SAY he loves you and he's loyal to the Grey Wardens and they're his family, he'll turn on you soooo fast.

So "Alistair hate" has to do with his wimpery through most of the game and then having him betray you by taking a stand about the wrong thing at the wrong time.  Totally human, sure, but that's why Loghain can be treated with some distance.  He stabbed you from across the country.  Alistair stabs you in the face after possibly being your best friend or lover.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Fanghorne]

There really isnt much of a debate here. Thisis a game but it is infused with HUMAN character traits, desires, wants, and loves. If it didnt mirror at least in principle what you or most people would do in real life on some level, there would be no emotional draw to the game.



In short, Loghain pretty much at every given opportunity completely f'd over Alistairm your plater PC, and most of the land. (depsite his noble assertions) Allowing him to stay on as a warden is tantamount to absurdity in the eyes of Alistair or hell for that matter any of you if you were him.



Its an obvious reaction from Alistair and I find it utterly baffling that any of you provided your not grossly anti-social find it odd.

[Fanghorne]

I might want to use a spellcheck..../ugh. Doctors really cant type worth a crap.

[fantasypisces]

Sabriana wrote...

Replay Ostagar and listen to Duncan. Read and/or listen closely. That will tell you what is expected of true Grey Wardens. Listen to the oath again. Alistair doesn't grasp it at all, even though he speaks it. My PC gets told that she has to put the slaughter of her whole house on the back-burner because the blight is what is important. Duncan tells her it is 'far' more important than the butchering of her family, lover, and friends/servants. You may hear something different, but that's how I understand what is repeated over and over. We do whatever it takes. No disclaimers, or restrictions, or exceptions.

There is no personal line in the Grey Wardens. Blood magic is allowed, murder is allowed, everything is allowed as long as it wipes out the archdemon. Alistair forsook having 'personal lines' when he joined. If Jory has to die, so does Alistair. No two sets of rules should apply.

He doesn't have to fight side by side with my girl and her group, but I want him fighting for Ferelden. His half-brother dies doing just that, and so does Duncan and the rest of the Grey Wardens in Ostagar. Yes, they were betrayed, but they fought and died nevertheless. Instead, he runs and hides behind his righteous indignation. Something he gave up (supposedly) when he joined the GW.

My human noble would be outraged should the Senior Grey Warden suggest that Howe joins up. She might very well refuse to fight side by side with Howe, but she would never forsake Ferelden. I'm just throwing that in, because that will inevitably brought up, even though Howe is a sniveling coward, and Loghain is not.

my throughts exactly, almost word for word, especially about Howe.

[Kohaku]

Recidiva wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Bah! Players aren't humans!! We're god-like beings controlling people with our point and clicks god-like powers....

*snicker*

In contrast, lots of other characters form their own logic and then follow it.

Morrigan is entirely unbending and I consider her beautifully written and performed, and her loyalty to Flemeth is explained out of her fear and power hunger.  I get it.  No problem with her ditching me in the end if I don't do it her way.

Alistair just had too many attributes to his character, and most of them unable to predict how he'd behave at Landsmeet.

I think Alistair just suffered from having to be key to too many plot twists and needed to be split into three characters:  The grizzled veteran Grey Warden who leads in the beginning, the completely lost to the world waif that latches onto the leading Grey Warden in some sort of weird Stockholm Syndrome, and the proposed King Of The World. 

Too many masters to serve.

And in the end, although he might SAY he loves you and he's loyal to the Grey Wardens and they're his family, he'll turn on you soooo fast.

So "Alistair hate" has to do with his wimpery through most of the game and then having him betray you by taking a stand about the wrong thing at the wrong time.  Totally human, sure, but that's why Loghain can be treated with some distance.  He stabbed you from across the country.  Alistair stabs you in the face after possibly being your best friend or lover.

Seriously. That's why over the course of reading this board and other opinions my thoughts of Alistair get soured.

I cannot imagine turning tail because of a suggestion of Loghain becoming a Gray Warden. I can't stand the man, if I actually finish another play though of the game, I don't know if I would allow him to live anyway. This isn’t because of Alistair so much as it’s the fact that he was trying to kill me off for some silly reasons that he made up in his own mind.

However, Alistair is so many things and some of them rightly ****** me off. I agree with you that maybe he should have been broken up into more than one character. The early version of what Alistair was supposed to be would have been the one my characters would have stuck with. Hands down.

I can see all the fluffy love and thoughts that some girls have for him, but I personally can’t deal with that. If you’re going act like a man at one critical part of the game, please be a man the rest of the time. I just have hard time coming to grips with the fact that he just isn’t it.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 27 décembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

It makes complete and total sense if you hate Duncan and hate the Grey Wardens in general, but had no choice about joining.

Turning Loghain into a Grey Warden is the worst thing I could do to him.  It's torture and a death sentence all wrapped up in a fun bloody ugly package.  It's PERFECT. 

Actually i think if anything, it shows how stupid the whole "oh we make him a Grey Warden then he *has* to be loyal" line of thinking from Riordan is. (and from the player, if they buy into it) Yes, definitely, a man forced into worst possible fate he'd imagine couldn't possibly put his resentment towards the people who did it to him over the blah blah darkspawn. I mean it's not like he already did such thing onc- oh wait, he did. Never you mind, never you mind. ::furious handwaving:: The idea of "darkspawn one day seeking him out" is ohh sooo scary it totally removes the choice from the man, and makes it totally impossible for him to just stab you in the eye in your sleep during the first camp on the road because he hates your guys and what you did to him.

[robertthebard]

ResoluteOne wrote...

Forget Alistair for a second. You players who think it is in any way logical or productive for Ferelden to recruit him make no sense. Sure it is a plot option. But there are a lot of plot options that are just fun or interesting but don't necessarily make that much sense. Until someone can explain why it makes sense at all.....then faulting Alistair for not going along is pointless.   Remember Riorden is from Orlais and out of the loop. Every other main charcter in the story has agreed getting rid of Logain is the priority.  But when Alistair has the balls to actually enforce and carry out what he has been complaining about the whole time, somehow that is the part that is wrong?

Um, just no.  Arl Eamon tells you that in order to get the ball rolling against the Blight, it may even be necessary to surrender to Loghain and get the ball rolling.  Stopping Loghain is not "the priority", stopping the Blight is.  None of your treaties are worth a crap to stop Loghain.  None of them state anything but assistance during a Blight.  If you all of a sudden have an army at your disposal, why would you need the Landsmeet?  In fact, if you rescue Eamon before you have all the treaties done, he won't rush straight to Denerim to stop Loghain.  Fatal flaw in your perception here.  The focus is the Blight, Loghain is secondary.  If not, then Eamon is healed, deals with Jowan, and goes to Denerim to call for a Landsmeet, instead of insisting you finish gathering your treaty allies.  If you do have all your treaties done, then he goes for the Landsmeet, but until all your ducks are in a row to stop the Blight, he doesn't confront Loghain.  This argument is every bit as weak as Loghain's perceived Orlesian threat.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Actually i think if anything, it shows how stupid the whole "oh we make him a Grey Warden then he *has* to be loyal" line of thinking from Riordan is. (and from the player, if they buy into it) Yes, definitely, a man forced into worst possible fate he'd imagine couldn't possibly put his resentment towards the people who did it to him over the blah blah darkspawn. I mean it's not like he already did such thing onc- oh wait, he did. Never you mind, never you mind. ::furious handwaving:: The idea of "darkspawn one day seeking him out" is ohh sooo scary it totally removes the choice from the man, and makes it totally impossible for him to just stab you in the eye in your sleep during the first camp on the road because he hates your guys and what you did to him.

Yeah, what Riordan says about it being inescapable is rather silly.  There's no reason why a Grey Warden can't spend the rest of their lives drunk and angry or plotting...well, unless of course you think that there's probably a cadre of Grey Wardens who will garrotte you in your sleep if you try it.  Duncan gave me that impression.

That's why I think the whole idea of making them and then saying "Surprise!  Now you'll die young, you're basically sterile, and you'll be tortured forever by dreams of darkspawn and be driven to die in the Deep Roads - tah daaaah!" is in fact not a "grey" act, but an evil act.  You can't make heroes that way.

In my case I know Dog will watch Loghain when I'm not.  I'm not planning on trusting him and there's no way he's a hero or it's redemption.  It's an ugly forced death sentence with a purpose.

In the playthrough that I recruited Loghain I just told him it was a death sentence and that not to eat any food anyone else in camp prepared because everyone hated him and most were skilled herbalists or poison makers.  And to move, because that was Alistair's spot.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Um, just no.  Arl Eamon tells you that in order to get the ball rolling against the Blight, it may even be necessary to surrender to Loghain and get the ball rolling.

Well, Arl Eamon sure has a change of heart and sings totally different tune when -- should you actually lose the voting during the Landsmeet-- Loghain calls for prompt execution of the Arl, Alistair and the player's sorry ass. Which incidentally makes the whole "oh we should spare him" thing so much funnier and even more naive all things considered.

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Um, just no.  Arl Eamon tells you that in order to get the ball rolling against the Blight, it may even be necessary to surrender to Loghain and get the ball rolling.

Well, Arl Eamon sure has a change of heart and sings totally different tune when -- should you actually lose the voting during the Landsmeet-- Loghain calls for prompt execution of the Arl, Alistair and the player's sorry ass. Which incidentally makes the whole "oh we should spare him" thing so much funnier and even more naive all things considered.

If you support Bhelen in Orzammar, he does the same thing.  Why?  To keep pressure off the throne.  Fighting a war on two fronts is a bad thing.  However, this statement does not validate "Loghain has to be stopped first".  Which is what this out of context line you quoted was pointing out.  All you are trying to do is justify committing murder yourself.  What were the terms of the duel set out by the Landsmeet?  "Fight in single combat until one party yields".  Those are the terms, and the Landsmeet follows the winner.  If Alistair fights Loghain, he isn't given the oppurtunity to yield, Alistair kills him outright.  If I fight him, and decide to spare him to fight the Blight, then Alistair commits Treason, by trying to take the crown by force to kill Loghain.  Isn't a part of Loghain's crimes treason?  His inaction kills the King, and then he seizes the crown from Anora so he can wage his war against Orlais...

So, what we learn here, good forum readers, is that Loghain's actions were treason, but while Alistair's actions were treasonous, we can't really consider them treason as his husband, er, father figure was killed by Loghain's inaction.  We are expected to side with Alistair because he's been our friend/comrade in arms/possibly lover for most of the game.  Except, has he really?  He's certainly put on airs that effect, but what has he done to show that?  Well, he's lied to us about who he is.  He's refused to put information on the table immediately that may well influence the way you play the game.  To those that say "He insisted we go to Redcliffe first", why didn't he volunteer his heritage then, which would then make Redcliffe a logical first step?  Instead, he argues with Morrigan about facing Loghain directly.  Why should anyone want to follow somebody that doesn't want to lead?

[Recidiva]

robertthebard wrote...

If you support Bhelen in Orzammar, he does the same thing.  Why?  To keep pressure off the throne.  Fighting a war on two fronts is a bad thing.  However, this statement does not validate "Loghain has to be stopped first".  Which is what this out of context line you quoted was pointing out.  All you are trying to do is justify committing murder yourself.  What were the terms of the duel set out by the Landsmeet?  "Fight in single combat until one party yields".  Those are the terms, and the Landsmeet follows the winner.  If Alistair fights Loghain, he isn't given the oppurtunity to yield, Alistair kills him outright.  If I fight him, and decide to spare him to fight the Blight, then Alistair commits Treason, by trying to take the crown by force to kill Loghain.  Isn't a part of Loghain's crimes treason?  His inaction kills the King, and then he seizes the crown from Anora so he can wage his war against Orlais...

So, what we learn here, good forum readers, is that Loghain's actions were treason, but while Alistair's actions were treasonous, we can't really consider them treason as his husband, er, father figure was killed by Loghain's inaction.  We are expected to side with Alistair because he's been our friend/comrade in arms/possibly lover for most of the game.  Except, has he really?  He's certainly put on airs that effect, but what has he done to show that?  Well, he's lied to us about who he is.  He's refused to put information on the table immediately that may well influence the way you play the game.  To those that say "He insisted we go to Redcliffe first", why didn't he volunteer his heritage then, which would then make Redcliffe a logical first step?  Instead, he argues with Morrigan about facing Loghain directly.  Why should anyone want to follow somebody that doesn't want to lead?

He doesn't even insist you do anything.  He suggests you go to Redcliffe and then if pressed says he doesn't know and he'll do whatever you say.

I don't mind him following me.  I do mind him telling me I'm wrong when I'm not.

As much as the word "metagaming" gets bandied about, once you've played the game through entirely, unless you plan on playing it the same way forever, you have to make some changes or you're using metagaming as an excuse to always play according to your personal philosophy and not actually...roleplay.

The game is intended to be replayed, and it has replay value, I see no reason to be accused of metagaming if I've played it seven times and one of them spared Loghain.

In fact I think the "best" outcome for Ferelden is Alistair and Anora married, Loghain sacrificed and me alive.  I was a mage and hated Duncan and disliked Alistair anyway.  Duncan was the same sort of manipulative bastard that destroyed my life at the tower and Alistair was a Templar and an obnoxious one at that.  How do you not know I'm "another mage" if I'm carrying a huge staff and wearing cloth.  First clue?

However, if I get that outcome, Alistair isn't grateful or insightful, he's angry and rude in my epilogue.  So that does color my impressions of the character, same way as playing through Dwarf Commoner and Dwarf Noble is going to influence my opinions about Harrowmont and Bhelen.  

My first game I didn't metagame.  The second game of course I'm going to.  That's called learning.  I don't make the same mistakes and use the same gambits and opening moves every time playing chess, either.

It's a game, it's not Groundhog Day.

And Alistair has to really like you in order to be hardened anyway.  He adored me straight up to Landsmeet.  So yeah, it does put the quality of loyalty and love in a different light.  Fair weather friend.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 décembre 2009 - 06:35 .

[robertthebard]

Recidiva wrote...

He doesn't even insist you do anything.  He suggests you go to Redcliffe and then if pressed says he doesn't know and he'll do whatever you say.

I don't mind him following me.  I do mind him telling me I'm wrong when I'm not.

As much as the word "metagaming" gets bandied about, once you've played the game through entirely, unless you plan on playing it the same way forever, you have to make some changes or you're using metagaming as an excuse to always play according to your personal philosophy and not actually...roleplay.

The game is intended to be replayed, and it has replay value, I see no reason to be accused of metagaming if I've played it seven times and one of them spared Loghain.

In fact I think the "best" outcome for Ferelden is Alistair and Anora married, Loghain sacrificed and me alive.  I was a mage and hated Duncan and hated Alistair anyway.  Duncan was the same sort of manipulative bastard that destroyed my life at the tower and Alistair was a Templar and an obnoxious one at that.  How do you not know I'm "another mage" if I'm carrying a huge staff and wearing cloth.  First clue?

However, if I get that outcome, Alistair isn't grateful or insightful, he's angry and rude in my epilogue.  So that does color my impressions of the character, same was as playing through Dwarf Commoner and Dwarf Noble is going to influence my opinions about Harrowmont and Bhelen.  

That's an intersting point about the dwarf noble origin.  I guess I'm just going to roll right along being naive, but I had to admire the skill with which Bhelen set both Trian and my PC up.  That was a piece of work, and I'm going to support him as a Noble, just because it was so slick.

Regarding Alistair, the only ending where he's happy is the one where he gets to die.  He no longer has to worry about making a decision that will hurt somebody, and he doesn't have to live with any more grief.  I've read that death described as honorable, noble, etc etc...What I have always seen it as is cowardly.  He's being the best King he can be by killing himself.  Yeah, way to make a stand, Alistair.  Hmm, where have I seen that line before, oh yeah, at Ostagar...

[Recidiva]

robertthebard wrote...

That's an intersting point about the dwarf noble origin.  I guess I'm just going to roll right along being naive, but I had to admire the skill with which Bhelen set both Trian and my PC up.  That was a piece of work, and I'm going to support him as a Noble, just because it was so slick.

Regarding Alistair, the only ending where he's happy is the one where he gets to die.  He no longer has to worry about making a decision that will hurt somebody, and he doesn't have to live with any more grief.  I've read that death described as honorable, noble, etc etc...What I have always seen it as is cowardly.  He's being the best King he can be by killing himself.  Yeah, way to make a stand, Alistair.  Hmm, where have I seen that line before, oh yeah, at Ostagar...

How hard is it to be set up by someone up you've known for five minutes when they've known you for a lifetime and you can't question it or say no?

Bhelen's a douche.  That's the one bit of game canon I can't ever accept.   Bhelen's the Gorbachev of his people.  Right.  *spit*

Sorry.  Someone always taking the quick and easy way to power - i.e. - go kill that guy.  And the one next to him, and the one next to him...

I can only accept that he made the plight of the Dwarves better by thinning them out and making the rest too afraid to disagree.  Bhelen is much more Castro.

Harrowmont's just all around worthless.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 décembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[robertthebard]

You do have Gorim to minimize cultural shock, and dialog options that allow you a bit more insight. The fact that Gorim, while not pleased with the outcome, can admire the handiwork means that you wouldn't have seen it coming anyway. There are no "good" options there anyway.

[Marso40]

This thread is an absolute tribute to Bioware's writers. Have any characters in any other game ever inspired this much discussion and debate?

[Recidiva]

robertthebard wrote...

You do have Gorim to minimize cultural shock, and dialog options that allow you a bit more insight. The fact that Gorim, while not pleased with the outcome, can admire the handiwork means that you wouldn't have seen it coming anyway. There are no "good" options there anyway.

I love me some Gorim.

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...

Regarding Alistair, the only ending where he's happy is the one where he gets to die.  He no longer has to worry about making a decision that will hurt somebody, and he doesn't have to live with any more grief.  I've read that death described as honorable, noble, etc etc...What I have always seen it as is cowardly.  He's being the best King he can be by killing himself.  Yeah, way to make a stand, Alistair.  Hmm, where have I seen that line before, oh yeah, at Ostagar...

Hah, isn't that the truth.  In fact, if you call him a coward at that point, he acknowledges it and points out the bards will be singing songs about him.  By allowing him to sacrifice himself, he dies and becomes a legend whereas when the person who really was responsible will most likely be forgotten.  

And yes, I agree that all these threads about these characters just show how amazing the writing and character development is.  I've played through this game 8 times now, and I'm still not tired of it.  It's just amazing.

[Cybercat999]

Recidiva wrote...

Hell, I would have happily slacked off and gotten drunk during several game points, but the opportunity never presented itself.  All I get is "no" or "death" as a choice.

Oh God, yes!!
Thanks for the chuckle Recidiva and if you ever get involved into making some game out there let me know..... I can only imagine what huge fun I would have playing it

[Sabriana]

Marso40 wrote...

This thread is an absolute tribute to Bioware's writers. Have any characters in any other game ever inspired this much discussion and debate?

I second that thought. Wholeheartedly.

The thought that becoming a GW is an honor, glory, etc., exists only in Alistair's head. Like a certain other character we get to know briefly, and whose execution we are allowed to watch.

My mage (first play-through) hated being pulled into the GWs, but she had little choice. It was either, at worst, be made tranquil/executed for aiding and abetting a malificar, or be send to Aeonor with Lilly at best. To become tainted by Duncan and his ritual was not something she wanted. I tried every choice in the dialoge, but there was not 'out' for my mage.

Now, I know that joining the GWs is what makes the game, but I truly thought it would be strictly voluntary, heck, I was naive enough to even think the so called 'conscription' was more or less voluntary and invoked because someone other than the PC stood against joining up.

As a matter of fact, the whole 'conscription' issue makes the notion that joining the legendary GW is an honor, glory, priviledge, etc a fallacy.

I've not played the dwarfs yet, but so far I only found this:

1.Human Noble: join, or be slaughtered
2. Dalish Elf: join, or die of disease. Yes, we, the GWs can cure it, but we won't unless you agree to join up.
3. City Elf: join, or face the wrath of the Arl. Execution is one of the nicer things the City Elf faces
4. Mage: join, or a) become tranquil/dead if you helped Jowan, or face the suspicions and the ill-will of the knght commander and his templars if you didn't

Mage's choice 4b is the one that comes closest to volunteering, all the others have little choice in the matter.

You don't have ot meta-game to have Riordan's suggestion give you pause. It did for me in my first play-through. Duncan was incredibly secretive and had the "all will be explained/everything has a reason" excuse each and every time. It stands to be acceptable reasoning to think that Riordan has something up his sleeve as well. It is unreasonable to assume that Riordan has no clue as to what Loghain was up to in the past, and be ignorant about Loghain's crimes.

But the main point is this: Alistair betrays Duncan, and he betrays Ferelden. If the end-game had included even just a little shot of him fighting for his people and his country, I would feel a little better about him. I mean, it showed Teagan, and it made me feel good (yeah, yeah, Teagan fan here ).

But he left, and is therefore just as deserving of the same treatment that Jory was. Heck, Jory knew a lot less than Alistair about the 'trade secrets' when he was run through.

What was it that Alistair himself said to my PC when asked about the Grey Wardens? Sort of like :"You were there, drink a little blood, faint, and then it's 'til death do you part." That's not verbatim, but close enough.

[ozsras]

My difficulty with Alistair is one I did have with Morrigan. Although with Morrigan I came to understand her and her way of thinking (even when I seriously disagree with it). Alistair on the other hand...

I have to say that I've played as a Warrior and Rogue more times than I have as a Mage. Also, I love playing as a Human Noble so my view of Alistair is ... not a happy one. Especially right now, he's giving me fits! (i'm playing as a 2H warrior, cousland).

In this playthrough, my noble wanted nothing to do with the Wardens and was not happy when Duncan said he would be a great recruit. Gideon, my noble, is very family oriented and wants to be the next Teryn. He loves his family and Ferelden a great deal and would do anything for them. Fastforward to the massacre at Castle Cousland and seeing his entire family wiped out, Duncan barting over him with his father bleeding out on the stones and his mother fighting to the end and...you get a very unhappy Cousland. He will do his duty and honor his father by joining the GW's and stopping the Blight. But he dislikes Duncan, um, a lot. He's lost his titles, lands and now is a Gray Warden of all things, no not happy at all. So when he is stuck with Alistair who worships the ground that Duncan walks on and Morrigan who thinks death is the very worst thing to happen to you - well suffice to say that He and Dog have their own little tent and keep to themselves.  LOL

I find it quite funny that for two people who hate each other Morrigan and Alistair a lot alike. They aren't the same obviously but for them Death is the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. And to me, it's totally not. The fact that *after* I had told Alistair that my *entire family* had been wiped out he *still* talks about making a home after the Blight is over. When my PC didn't want to talk about homes and family's *at all*. At least Morrigan doesn't bring it up again. Sheesh. My PC is BFF with Sten and Oghren, hangs out with Leli (just to make her giggle and squeal), brings Wynne wine and talks about massage techniques with Zevran.  (also he and Shale try to figure out how to make those crystals even more slimming on her)

Urgh, I've lost my point, sorry about that I just find the other characters so much fun to hang out with. Alistair is a problem for me and most of PC's because he has such a narrow way of looking at things. I guess you could say the same thing about Sten but Sten I *get*. Alistair I just...don't. If Alistair can't figure out that Duncan had his own agenda (like most everyone) and that he didn't recruit Big Al out of the goodness of his heart ... then... I don't know what to say. If Alistair can't figure out that the Blight is to be stopped with all available resources (including Logain as dragon chow) and that, yes, it is a sacrifice but that's what GW's do, they sacrifice their own personal wants and needs for Ferelden to get the job done. If Alistair can't figure out that it's not the saving part that makes you (him) a Gray Warden it's the sacrifice part. He, Alistair, sees it one way and you can't argue with him about it - you can't tell him exactly why you feel the way you do and he just thinks you are ... stupid or something? I'm glad that I can't change peoples mind, I usually don't like using the persuade option because it makes it so easy, I'm glad he has a line and that he doens't want to cross it. I would just like to tell him that my line was seeing my entire family killed and becoming a GW. And you know what? I got up and went on and did my duty. Became the one to make choices even when I wasn't the most informed about GW's or even wanted the job.

My PC made a lot of sacrifices and he didn't like it but he did it anyway. 'Cause that's what GW's do. At least in my mind.

And sorry about the gigantic wall of text. I apparently had a lot to say - I'll try to not do that in the future.

[Sialater]

What I want to know is, why doesn't Wynne object just as strongly if she's there? Seems to me, that's a fault in the writing, too. If you talk to her in the Tower after getting her in your group, she is genuinely angry about Loghain. She called him some rather harsh names, "traitorous bastard" is the mildest, IIRC, and is vividly angry about the retreat at Ostagar. She even told Irving to not trust the man when he apparently made overtures afterward. (I'll need to replay it on another run through, but I've never talked to Wynne before in the Tower, and I never got this conversation anywhere else.) Which is when Loghain turned to Uldred. So, not only is Wynne pissed off about the deaths of her fellow mages at Ostagar, she's VERY upset over her own particular conundrum and the deaths of the children she was unable to save.















Spoiler:





After all, Wynne's the only member of your party Loghain's actually killed with his actions. Why doesn't she also get to speak up at Landsmeet? (And yes, I understand about budgets, etc.)