353 réponses à ce sujet

[Default137]

The thing alot of you who are defending Alistars actions are failing to realize is, to almost all of Ferelden, even before what Loghain did, Loghain was an amazing hero/general, he was literally the most well known and respected figure in Ferelden at some points in time.

At the point of the Landsmeet, we as Gray Wardens know what he has done, but after we beat him in combat, thats done with, he's been bested, his aspirations have fallen, he can never pull that stunt again, the people would never accept it, and he knows it, for all intents and purposes, he is dead to the country.

As a purely non extremely, emotional person, look at the crowd, look at your companions, look at Riodan, NONE of them want you to kill Loghain besides Alistar, and in fact the HIGHEST Gray Warden alive comes up with the scheme to bring the most powerful General/Warrior Ferelden has ever known into your organization for the final battle.

Lets look at this from your characters point of view, you spent the entire game being drilled that we must do WHATEVER it takes to beat the Blight, you've been assembling massive armies, but probably are a little worried you might not be able to lead them well by yourself, you've been building a group of stalwart companions who have their own personalities, but all seem to agree with you on that one main point.

Finally you reach Loghain, and duel him, and end up winning! You are the victor, you have bested him, he surrenders, and its up to you to decide what to do with him, suddenly, the leader of your organization comes over, points out you will need a good leaders to lead your army, and Loghain has been the military leader of Ferelden for centuries, and would do anything for his country.

2+2.

Alistar ended up breaking so much that he had built up over the entire game with his actions, he betrayed the Wardens Oath, he betrayed the Wardens, he betrayed Duncans ideals, he betrayed you, he betrayed Ferelden, he betrayed it all in the name of some petty vengeance that did not need to resort to blood, making him appear to be little more then a child with a sword.

And thats why I hate this encounter, yeah, maybe if you made your character an emotional wreck who doesn't understand the meaning of the Oath, or love poor Alistar so much you'll do whatever he wants, and cuddle him when he cries about poor Duncan, then yeah, storming off makes sense, but in my game, I got him over Duncans death, I got him hardened, in the later ally quests, he really got to understand the "whatever it takes philosophy", yet he still cried like a little girl and ran off the second I decided to put Loghain in charge of the armies against the Archdemon.

This wasn't powergaming or metagaming either, I really liked Alistar, and was planning on romancing him to the end, but his actions in the Landsmeet think he isn't even old enough to handle a sword, let alone a romance, and after reading what he does to anything other then Human Noble characters makes me agree with this. I'm suprised he does so well as King actually, and think Bioware probably just did that to make sure it will be canon in the sequel, because having him ruin Ferelden with his utter lack of a spine would not please all his fangirls.

Modifié par Default137, 27 décembre 2009 - 08:44 .

[MKATAKM]

You know, some people are over-analyzing. This is a game, made for fun, remember?

[Recidiva]

MKATAKM wrote...

You know, some people are over-analyzing. This is a game, made for fun, remember?

Analysis is fun too.  For me, anyway.

[Odyssey61]

IMO Loghain is a traitor. However the game designers want you to be in that real life quandry. It makes it all the more engaging.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sabriana wrote...

Marso40 wrote...

This thread is an absolute tribute to Bioware's writers. Have any characters in any other game ever inspired this much discussion and debate?

I second that thought. Wholeheartedly.

The thought that becoming a GW is an honor, glory, etc., exists only in Alistair's head. Like a certain other character we get to know briefly, and whose execution we are allowed to watch.

My mage (first play-through) hated being pulled into the GWs, but she had little choice. It was either, at worst, be made tranquil/executed for aiding and abetting a malificar, or be send to Aeonor with Lilly at best. To become tainted by Duncan and his ritual was not something she wanted. I tried every choice in the dialoge, but there was not 'out' for my mage.

Now, I know that joining the GWs is what makes the game, but I truly thought it would be strictly voluntary, heck, I was naive enough to even think the so called 'conscription' was more or less voluntary and invoked because someone other than the PC stood against joining up.

As a matter of fact, the whole 'conscription' issue makes the notion that joining the legendary GW is an honor, glory, priviledge, etc a fallacy.

I've not played the dwarfs yet, but so far I only found this:

1.Human Noble: join, or be slaughtered
2. Dalish Elf: join, or die of disease. Yes, we, the GWs can cure it, but we won't unless you agree to join up.
3. City Elf: join, or face the wrath of the Arl. Execution is one of the nicer things the City Elf faces
4. Mage: join, or a) become tranquil/dead if you helped Jowan, or face the suspicions and the ill-will of the knght commander and his templars if you didn't

Mage's choice 4b is the one that comes closest to volunteering, all the others have little choice in the matter.

You don't have ot meta-game to have Riordan's suggestion give you pause. It did for me in my first play-through. Duncan was incredibly secretive and had the "all will be explained/everything has a reason" excuse each and every time. It stands to be acceptable reasoning to think that Riordan has something up his sleeve as well. It is unreasonable to assume that Riordan has no clue as to what Loghain was up to in the past, and be ignorant about Loghain's crimes.

But the main point is this: Alistair betrays Duncan, and he betrays Ferelden. If the end-game had included even just a little shot of him fighting for his people and his country, I would feel a little better about him. I mean, it showed Teagan, and it made me feel good (yeah, yeah, Teagan fan here ).

But he left, and is therefore just as deserving of the same treatment that Jory was. Heck, Jory knew a lot less than Alistair about the 'trade secrets' when he was run through.

What was it that Alistair himself said to my PC when asked about the Grey Wardens? Sort of like :"You were there, drink a little blood, faint, and then it's 'til death do you part." That's not verbatim, but close enough.

Dwarf Noble has the most irony of them all...

Join the Wardens or continue down through the deep roads which you have been sentenced to walk along until overcome... so erm... join the wardens and in 30 years time return to the same spot you were at before accepting to join with them...

Dwarf Commoner is akin to City Elf, join Wardens or prepare to be executed.

Now I have gone both routes with the latter. My first Commoner was a hard brutal thug basically and she was nearly tempted to take the execution idea because she didn't like topsiders much. On her journey she then had the bright spark that... hey I could elevate my position through this and go back to Orzammar and still get what I wanted before I was arrested (leadership of the carta). Which is exactly what my Dwarf did (in my mind)
2nd runthrough with the avatar I have... he's a nice as pie dwarf whom only doing what he doing because he has to and dreams of escaping it to live a life of adventure and he often stands on that mound near his house in dust town looking up into the sparkly lights of the twin-suns and *record scratch* oops sorry wrong story, stares off wondering what it like and... hey Duncan comes along and offers it on a plate. ENCHANTMENT!

The thing that Alastair seems to forget that both Duncan and Riordan ram home to the Player Warden, Grey Wardens accept ANYONE with the ability to fight.

Perfect example is the Commoner, I have to say it is my favourite purely for the great line that Duncan states to the Dwarf Noble twits who are condemning the Commoner whom took part in the proving. "Yet s/he is your champion.", this supposed 'scum off the heel of the castes' beat all of their finest warriors and they want to execute him/her?

Alastair basically proves throughout the whole story that he hasn't been doing much reading at all, about the Wardens and especially of his heritage and how his father got to be the great king people talk of (thanks a lot to the sacrifice of Loghains father and Loghains aid!)

[Beerfish]

My last play thorugh I picked up Loghain to be in my group, however, it is amazing how people are looking at his indiscretions as if they were misdemeanors.



Betraying and causing the death of Duncan, head of the grey wardens.

Betraying and causing the death of Calian, the king (a benevolent one by all accounts), half brother of Alistair and son of Loghains 'best friend'

Aligning with Howe, a slimey ambitious horrid fellow.

Hiring assassins to kill the player and his companions.

Being part of the imprisoning and perhaps death of his own daughter.

Selling elves in the alienage to slavers to finance his plans.



And people are surprised that Alistair was outraged at the thought of Loghain being spared?

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

If you support Bhelen in Orzammar, he does the same thing.  Why?  To keep pressure off the throne.  Fighting a war on two fronts is a bad thing.  However, this statement does not validate "Loghain has to be stopped first".  Which is what this out of context line you quoted was pointing out.

I must be missing something here. Fighting the war on two fronts is a bad thing, and until Loghain is one way or another stopped what you have in your hands *is* war on two fronts, yet Loghain does not have to be stopped first in order to remove the existence of two-front war? (surrendering to him doesn't work out as option since he wants you dead when he's in this position)

I suppose one could try to maneuver in such a way they'd get a shot at defeating the darkspawn while avoiding Loghain's forces, but then i don't think Loghain is going to see it as anything but the Warden invasion on his precious Ferelden, and react accordingly.

All you are trying to do is justify committing murder yourself.  What were the terms of the duel set out by the Landsmeet?  "Fight in single combat until one party yields".  Those are the terms, and the Landsmeet follows the winner.

As you said it yourself, executing potential troublemaker is nothing but prudent action to keep the pressure off the throne. This doesn't have much to do with the precious duel, the duel is there to determine which of the two suspicious enough parties has the "divine favour" to call the shots. What happens after that is regular Thedas politics, the same sort that gets Alistair executed or Anora put in the tower. Even Loghain seems to see it this way, considering he doesn't protest his execution is somehow "unfair", and he doesn't bring the matter of duel at all.

If Alistair fights Loghain, he isn't given the oppurtunity to yield, Alistair kills him outright.  If I fight him, and decide to spare him to fight the Blight, then Alistair commits Treason, by trying to take the crown by force to kill Loghain.

Alistair doesn't commit treason by calling to become the king because the duel is there to determine whether Alistair's claim to the throne is valid in the first place. You win, and that establishes him as a valid candidate in the eyes of these present at the Landsmeet. (Anora being the other option) So he simply exercises the right he was given by your own actions. Now the player's character may have different idea about it but that's another story and the game allows you to make the final call.

[Xandurpein]

Beerfish wrote...

And people are surprised that Alistair was outraged at the thought of Loghain being spared?

He can be as outraged as he wants. I just don't accept that he decides to take his anger out on the inhabitants of Ferelden, by betraying his oath to defend them, just because he is mad at the character and Loghain. It's the people of Ferelden he punish, not me.

/Edit. to clarify. Becoming a Grey Warden is more or less a death sentence anyway. Wynne keeps telling me it's about me sacrificing myself so others can live. I'm expected to die so the people of Ferelden can survive. If Alistair deserts he doesn't punish me, he punish those we are trying to protect.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 décembre 2009 - 09:17 .

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

If you support Bhelen in Orzammar, he does the same thing.  Why?  To keep pressure off the throne.  Fighting a war on two fronts is a bad thing.  However, this statement does not validate "Loghain has to be stopped first".  Which is what this out of context line you quoted was pointing out.

I must be missing something here. Fighting the war on two fronts is a bad thing, and until Loghain is one way or another stopped what you have in your hands *is* war on two fronts, yet Loghain does not have to be stopped first in order to remove the existence of two-front war? (surrendering to him doesn't work out as option since he wants you dead when he's in this position)

I suppose one could try to maneuver in such a way they'd get a shot at defeating the darkspawn while avoiding Loghain's forces, but then i don't think Loghain is going to see it as anything but the Warden invasion on his precious Ferelden, and react accordingly.

All you are trying to do is justify committing murder yourself.  What were the terms of the duel set out by the Landsmeet?  "Fight in single combat until one party yields".  Those are the terms, and the Landsmeet follows the winner.

As you said it yourself, executing potential troublemaker is nothing but prudent action to keep the pressure off the throne. This doesn't have much to do with the precious duel, the duel is there to determine which of the two suspicious enough parties has the "divine favour" to call the shots. What happens after that is regular Thedas politics, the same sort that gets Alistair executed or Anora put in the tower. Even Loghain seems to see it this way, considering he doesn't protest his execution is somehow "unfair", and he doesn't bring the matter of duel at all.

If Alistair fights Loghain, he isn't given the oppurtunity to yield, Alistair kills him outright.  If I fight him, and decide to spare him to fight the Blight, then Alistair commits Treason, by trying to take the crown by force to kill Loghain.

Alistair doesn't commit treason by calling to become the king because the duel is there to determine whether Alistair's claim to the throne is valid in the first place. You win, and that establishes him as a valid candidate in the eyes of these present at the Landsmeet. (Anora being the other option) So he simply exercises the right he was given by your own actions. Now the player's character may have different idea about it but that's another story and the game allows you to make the final call.

No, it's not to validate Alistair's claim on the throne, or the only outcome could be Alistair on the throne.  We both know that cannot happen.  Again, we are going in circles here.  First your position is that the first priority is that Loghain be stopped.  When this is shown to be false, you go to the duel deciding if Alistair should take the throne.  This is also false, as even if you kill Loghain, you can end up with Anora ruling alone.  In fact, if you're a female PC that has romanced Alistair, and you don't metagame and leave him at the gate, you will end up with Anora on the throne alone.  This doesn't even consider the male Human Noble marrying Anora himself.

I won the duel, not Alistair.  If Alistair wins the duel, then Loghain is dead, and there is no discussion of what to do about him.  Alistair did not want to be King.  Throwing a temper tantrum at the Landsmeet to seize the throne, since that's what's going on at this point, since a ruler has not been selected yet, only goes to show that, as Anora points out, perhaps Alistair isn't the man for the job.  Frankly, there is no ending where Alistair is a good king, by himself.  Somebody is always there pulling his strings, whether that's Anora, the PC, or Eamon.

You may feel free to defend this position if you wish.  I have had Alistair on the throne a few times, and there's always somebody in the background making sure he does what needs to be done.  However, don't try to pretend that what he does at the Landsmeet is honorable, or acceptable, it is neither.

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...

I won the duel, not Alistair.  If Alistair wins the duel, then Loghain is dead, and there is no discussion of what to do about him.  Alistair did not want to be King.  Throwing a temper tantrum at the Landsmeet to seize the throne, since that's what's going on at this point, since a ruler has not been selected yet, only goes to show that, as Anora points out, perhaps Alistair isn't the man for the job.  Frankly, there is no ending where Alistair is a good king, by himself.  Somebody is always there pulling his strings, whether that's Anora, the PC, or Eamon.

You may feel free to defend this position if you wish.  I have had Alistair on the throne a few times, and there's always somebody in the background making sure he does what needs to be done.  However, don't try to pretend that what he does at the Landsmeet is honorable, or acceptable, it is neither.

To be fair to Alistair, Anora is the best queen when she has someone tempering her ambition, whether it be Alistair or the PC.  If you make her solo queen and don't stick around, the poor city elves get it even worse, but if you or Ali are there, things turn out much better for everyone.  Things turn out best for the female PC if she NEVER romances Alistair and takes the throne with him.  One way she's viewed as King Al's bride whom he loves very much, the other she's viewed as ruler and savior and much loved by her people.

Romancing Ali is just bad all around for the PC   

Ali has lost sight someone in all this that the blight is more important than his feelings.  The PC may have been wrong to recruit him, but done is done, and Ali also lost sight in that the PC had not led him astray at all earlier, and maybe has a clue as to what she is doing.  

[Sialater]

Uh... the PC didn't recruit him.

[Xandurpein]

tmp7704 wrote...

Alistair doesn't commit treason by calling to become the king because the duel is there to determine whether Alistair's claim to the throne is valid in the first place. You win, and that establishes him as a valid candidate in the eyes of these present at the Landsmeet. (Anora being the other option) So he simply exercises the right he was given by your own actions. Now the player's character may have different idea about it but that's another story and the game allows you to make the final call.

I suppose that to be fair, Alistair doesn't commit treason when he calls to become King at this point, he just proves himself to be petty, selfish and in my book unfit to become a King. But winning doesn't have anything to do with establishing whether Alistair is King or not. It only settles who shall be the arbiter of who the next monarch should be - the player or Loghain. It's not about Alistair or Anora, it's about you or Loghain. If it was about Alistair becoming King then you would be his champion, not the other way around.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Uh... the PC didn't recruit him.

My bad, ok the PC accepted Riorden's suggestion that he be recruited!  Riorden was deferring to the PC in most things anyway so it was all her responsibility.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[freethegoatpeople]

I thought Alistair's reaction was fair.  I mean Loghain is responsible for the death of nearly all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  He also "killed" the king, and was working with someone as evil as Arl Howe.  So yes, I agree with Alistair

[Xandurpein]

freethegoatpeople wrote...

I thought Alistair's reaction was fair.  I mean Loghain is responsible for the death of nearly all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  He also "killed" the king, and was working with someone as evil as Arl Howe.  So yes, I agree with Alistair

So... it is fair that he decides that the sodding people of Ferelden can save themselves, because he's mad at the player? It's fair that he punishes all those people the Grey Wardens are supposed to save, because he's angry with the player?

[ejoslin]

freethegoatpeople wrote...

I thought Alistair's reaction was fair.  I mean Loghain is responsible for the death of nearly all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  He also "killed" the king, and was working with someone as evil as Arl Howe.  So yes, I agree with Alistair

Say I agree that Loghain should have been just killed outright -- if that's not what happens, do you agree with Alistair's reaction?  Alistair could have ensured from the start, if he so chose, that everything would turn out the way he wanted.  However, he did not want that responsiblity, and handed it off to someone who was even newer, and just went through a serious trauma of her own, and in some cases more severe than the one he went through. 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Loghain was correct in his actions.  However, that does not justify Alistair quitting the Gray Wardens on the eve of battle.  And nothing justifies him dumping the PC, the general of the armies, the eve of battle either.  Alistair leads with his heart, not his mind, obviously.  He doesn't act, he reacts, and that is off putting to a lot of people.

[SarEnyaDor]

I think the big thing everyone is forgetting is that Alistair only has 11 cunning............

[Herr Uhl]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think the big thing everyone is forgetting is that Alistair only has 11 cunning............

It is painfully apparent. You sneaky... Witch-thief!

[SarEnyaDor]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think the big thing everyone is forgetting is that Alistair only has 11 cunning............

It is painfully apparent. You sneaky... Witch-thief!

I pictured your avatar's face scrunching up in the same manner and I giggled.

[Recidiva]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think the big thing everyone is forgetting is that Alistair only has 11 cunning............

I admit to playing one game where I kept his cunning and strength lower than mine in the hopes that I could beat him up or convince him to let me do the sacrifice on the rooftop.

[apantoliani]

 I didn't have too much trouble siding with Alistair, and it isn't because I'm a deluded fangirl or any of that crap. It was because Loghain is a traitor, everything that happened can in some way be traced back to him in the end, and if you let him live, and make him a Grey Warden, there is NO guarentee he wont screw up yet again. One can argue, yes, Alistair rage-quits and leaves, but again, there is no guarentee (in my head on that first playthrough when no one knows what's gonna happen) that Loghain wont do the same damn thing, or even just stab you in the back.


1) I (the PC) got those armies together, not Loghain. Up until now I have been doing a pretty good job of getting what needed to be done for the blight done. Loghain just started a civil war instead and sat in Denerim pissing and moaning about Orlais and how no one understands him.


2) Loghain killed the King, during a blight no less and then sided with Howe who tortures and murders to get what he wants. Oh yeah, wiped out the entire Ferelden order of Wardens with the exception of 2 and then blames the entire mess on them.


3) Sold elves into slavery to the Tevinter Imperium. Then he says it was to raise an army to fight the darkspawn. Yeah, that's completely acceptable. Remember the press-gangs that the people in Lothering outside the bar were talking about? Yep. Kind of like that too. Maybe if he hadn't had the entire King's army wiped out at Ostagar, he wouldn't have had to rely on drafting and selling slaves to fund his civil war.


4) Hired Antivan Crows to take out his dissenters. We only know about him sending Zevran after the player. After Zevran left the crows, there is no real way of knowing who all Loghain hired to do what after that. You can choose to look at it like it was Howe's idea, but he didn't seem too opposed to letting that torturing psychopath do his dirty work for him.


5) Did all of the above in sheer ignorance as to the purpose of having a Grey Warden fight the Archdemon to begin with. How screwed would Ferelden have been if Loghain had got his way and Alistair, Riordin and/or the PC ended up dead somewhere along the line.



Yeah, I get it. Used to be a great general, blah blah. Saved Ferelden from Orlais.

That doesn't sound like a Hero or a Great General to me. It sounds like an idiot gone mad with paranoia and/or power. He claims he did it for Ferelden, but one could argue that if Loghain had just done what he was told and shut his mouth at Ostagar, none of this would have ever happened. Cailan would be King, Anora would still be running the joint. Orlais would be still hanging out in Orlais doing whatever it is those people do. Howe and Jowan would be up on the gallows where he belonged and I hope that slavery business in the Alienage wouldn't have happened.



No. All of this bloodshed and bull**** is on Loghain's head. That's why his head went a rollin' in my book. Even if Alistair took Riordin's side, I still would have chopped his damn head off. Seeing as I still win the game afterwards, it's arguable his great generalness wouldn't have made that much of an impact anyway. The blight's horde of darkspawn isn't exactly a foe to be out manovered, their a brainless pack of zombie-like creatures under the direction of an Archdemon. Take out the Archdemon, the fight is over. It isn't like fighting an army of men where you have to use all these fancy tactics.

If anyone (Riordin, also an idiot) think I'm going to put that psycho in charge after going through all that work to solve everyone else's problems (Including Redcliffe, which was his fault to start with) and gather an army to stop the darkspawn and then end the civil war that HE started, then they are a fool. The theme of the game has been up until this point been "If you want to get something done, do it yourself." No reason to change here. 

Alistair, you watch the gates so that us grown ups can go play with the Archdemon. Riordin, go do your stabby stabby fall to your death thing. Me, time for tea with the Archdemon. ONWARD WOOO! 

[SarEnyaDor]

I routinely only level up his cunning to 14 I think, just the bare minimum to get max tactic slots and then it gets dusty - he doesn't do anything that cunning really helps with anyway, why waste the points that could go into strength or constitution or wisdom (for the stamina obviously as I see no other effects).

edited to add I really like the post right before mine. It will probably be skimmed over, as all of mine pointing out those points were because let's face it, this is the abortion debate of Dragon Age.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 27 décembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[Sialater]

Alistair's also not a big-picture kinda guy.

[Relshar]

Beerfish wrote...

My last play thorugh I picked up Loghain to be in my group, however, it is amazing how people are looking at his indiscretions as if they were misdemeanors.

Betraying and causing the death of Duncan, head of the grey wardens.
Betraying and causing the death of Calian, the king (a benevolent one by all accounts), half brother of Alistair and son of Loghains 'best friend'
Aligning with Howe, a slimey ambitious horrid fellow.
Hiring assassins to kill the player and his companions.
Being part of the imprisoning and perhaps death of his own daughter.
Selling elves in the alienage to slavers to finance his plans.

And people are surprised that Alistair was outraged at the thought of Loghain being spared?

You missed out consorting with Bloodmages to kill Eamon and helping Abonimations take control of the Circle of Magi.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Alistair doesn't "lie about his heritage" he simply isn't forthcoming with you about his history if a) he doesn't like you or he's not with you. Lying and simply not telling are very different things imo.

A lie of omission is still a lie.  This fact is used regularly by the Morrigan Haters Club concerning the ritual.  However, the fact is that knowing that the heir apparent to the throne is alive and well, and standing right beside you is surely useful information, no?  In fact, if you directly ask him if he knows who his father is, he will lie.  He only comes clean when you go to Redcliffe, if he's even with you, because he knows Eamon will spill his beans.  HIs approval rating has nothing to do with his telling you if you go to Redcliffe, he knows one way or the other his secret is out, so he tells you.

Regarding Spock, he would see the logic first, because his decision isn't weighted with the emotional kneejerk reactions.  Also, assuming Spock as a Grey Warden, it wouldn't be prudent to spill out any pertinent details about a secretive order in front of the whole of the governing body of Ferelden.  I was frankly disappointed that Riordan didn't conscribe Loghain, but I also understand why.  This is a decision that the devs wanted you to make, and wanted you to bear the responsibility for.

Yet he's the one who encourages you to go to Redcliffe to gain Eamon's help. He knows by doing this that he will have to tell you eventually. He chooses to wait until the last minute and he has his reasons for doing so: he doesn't want the news to bias your opinion of him one way or another. Sure he's purposefully withholding the information but only long enough for you to be able to draw your own opinion of him and not so long that it's going to change what you do or how you handle anything.