353 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Everyone gets what Loghain has done. My question stands -- Alistair gave up all decision making rights very early -- he chose to trust the PC for whatever reason (I have no clue why he would, other than he's a mess). The PC is his superior, and plus they have the senior GW from Orlais making a decision he doesn't like. We get that many people don't like that decision (I don't like that decision and only made it once to get the achievement). But what Alistair did was also reprehensible. He, on the eve of battle, quit the GW when obviously as many gray wardens as possible were needed (this is the only reason Riorden suggested it). He deserted all he said he stood for. If he really cared about the GW to begin with, if he really cared about Ferelden, he wouldn't have done that. All Alistair cared about at that point was revenge, and he put his needs ahead of the GW.



Duncan made clear to the noble PC that she could not take revenge on Howe, that she only had ONE priority, and that was defeating the blight. Alistair's personal feelings had no place the eve of battle. Yet in many endings, not just that one, he gives in to them.



Ugh, I think I'm going back to my "Alistair is weak," argument that I seem to put in many threads . . .

[Xandurpein]

apantoliani wrote...

 I didn't have too much trouble siding with Alistair, and it isn't because I'm a deluded fangirl or any of that crap. It was because Loghain is a traitor, everything that happened can in some way be traced back to him in the end, and if you let him live, and make him a Grey Warden, there is NO guarentee he wont screw up yet again. One can argue, yes, Alistair rage-quits and leaves, but again, there is no guarentee (in my head on that first playthrough when no one knows what's gonna happen) that Loghain wont do the same damn thing, or even just stab you in the back.

There are two separate questions there rolled into one.

1. Is it reasonable for the Player to let Loghain live or not.
2. Is it reasonable for Alistair to quit if the player lets Loghain live.

I have no real issue with anyone choosing either option at question 1. It is after all up to how you roleplay your character. What I think makes Alistair fail is question 2. Just because you can choose to play so you let Loghain live, doesn't mean that Alistair is still a jerk for quitting the Grey Wardens IF you let Loghain live.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 décembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[bobtheworm]

During Convo with Alistair during the game Alistair swears he is going to kill Loghain. So when Alistair killed Loghain I wasn't surprised. I was a bit more shocked to not be able to talk him out of it. I ended up doing the battle myself with my rogue so I could talk Anora and Alistair into marrying.

[Aerya99]

Recidiva wrote...

How hard is it to be set up by someone up you've known for five minutes when they've known you for a lifetime and you can't question it or say no?

Bhelen's a douche.  That's the one bit of game canon I can't ever accept.   Bhelen's the Gorbachev of his people.  Right.  *spit*

Sorry.  Someone always taking the quick and easy way to power - i.e. - go kill that guy.  And the one next to him, and the one next to him...

I can only accept that he made the plight of the Dwarves better by thinning them out and making the rest too afraid to disagree.  Bhelen is much more Castro.

Harrowmont's just all around worthless.

Heh... when I started the Dwarf Noble Orgin story I was very surprised by the story development (congratz Bioware for this wonderfull scenario <3) ... I never suspected the Bhelen would betray Arda (my Dwarf Warrior)... and I got soo angry that with my Human Noble I supported Harrowmont... I do wonder what end I'll get for that...

And yea... Alistair is a woosh... I have no respect for the crying grown-up males...

Modifié par Aerya99, 27 décembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[robertthebard]

apantoliani wrote...

 I didn't have too much trouble siding with Alistair, and it isn't because I'm a deluded fangirl or any of that crap. It was because Loghain is a traitor, everything that happened can in some way be traced back to him in the end, and if you let him live, and make him a Grey Warden, there is NO guarentee he wont screw up yet again. One can argue, yes, Alistair rage-quits and leaves, but again, there is no guarentee (in my head on that first playthrough when no one knows what's gonna happen) that Loghain wont do the same damn thing, or even just stab you in the back.

So, how do you suppose the Landsmeet feels about the person that killed the Arl of Denerim's son being one of the combatants to decide Ferelden's fate?  Alistair completely ignores that fact in his frenzy to declare the Grey Wardens the next best thing to the Maker himself as far as Holy Orders go.  Shouldn't they, instead, be calling for the PC's head?  After all, if death is the only acceptable penalty, then City Elf PC's will, by and large, always have that coming.

1) I (the PC) got those armies together, not Loghain. Up until now I have been doing a pretty good job of getting what needed to be done for the blight done. Loghain just started a civil war instead and sat in Denerim pissing and moaning about Orlais and how no one understands him.

Alistair sat in camp, or swung a sword, all the time pissing and moaning about how noone understands him.  Then, after you find out he's the heir, the pissing and moaning multiplies.

2) Loghain killed the King, during a blight no less and then sided with Howe who tortures and murders to get what he wants. Oh yeah, wiped out the entire Ferelden order of Wardens with the exception of 2 and then blames the entire mess on them.

This he does.  I make no excuses for what he did.  What I do question is the motive for the only punishment for his crimes is death.  I found my solution to be far more satisfying.  Alistair runs away to get drunk, Loghain becomes the one thing that he hates almost as much as Orlesians, a Grey Warden.  This is, in and of itself a death sentence, though it's more equivalent to life in prison.  There is no escaping that the taint will eventually destroy him, just as it will Alistair, despite his running off to get drunk.  Then he's forced to sleep with Morrigan for the Dark Ritual, to whatever end that may come, and is left to rebuild the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.  He is also stripped of all land and titles.  Barring, of course, the estate given to the Wardens after the fight.

Yeah, death was the easy way out, as dead people don't have to live with the mistakes of their past, they are dead.

3) Sold elves into slavery to the Tevinter Imperium. Then he says it was to raise an army to fight the darkspawn. Yeah, that's completely acceptable. Remember the press-gangs that the people in Lothering outside the bar were talking about? Yep. Kind of like that too. Maybe if he hadn't had the entire King's army wiped out at Ostagar, he wouldn't have had to rely on drafting and selling slaves to fund his civil war.

You seem to be caught up on acceptable.  Nobody here has suggested that Loghain receive a full pardon for his crimes, but again, see my previous point, and my first point.  If you played a City Elf, did you turn yourself in for your crimes, or just assume that all is forgiven?

4) Hired Antivan Crows to take out his dissenters. We only know about him sending Zevran after the player. After Zevran left the crows, there is no real way of knowing who all Loghain hired to do what after that. You can choose to look at it like it was Howe's idea, but he didn't seem too opposed to letting that torturing psychopath do his dirty work for him.

If you are going to present something as evidence, you are going to need to support it.  We can play this game all day long, but without something in evidence in game, all you are doing is creating strawmen to try to justify your own lust for revenge.  It's all good to say "I killed him because I felt he deserved it, and I will always kill him, because I don't feel like anything else will satisfy me."  There is no need to make things up.  However, I should remind you that the topic of this discussion is Alistair, not Loghain.

5) Did all of the above in sheer ignorance as to the purpose of having a Grey Warden fight the Archdemon to begin with. How screwed would Ferelden have been if Loghain had got his way and Alistair, Riordin and/or the PC ended up dead somewhere along the line.

While the things that he is guilty of he did do not knowing Grey Wardens were indeed needed to end a Blight, we've already established that some of what you accuse him of probably didn't happen.  Do you contend that the Crows would have failed miserably at killing Eamon?

Yeah, I get it. Used to be a great general, blah blah. Saved Ferelden from Orlais.

That doesn't sound like a Hero or a Great General to me. It sounds like an idiot gone mad with paranoia and/or power. He claims he did it for Ferelden, but one could argue that if Loghain had just done what he was told and shut his mouth at Ostagar, none of this would have ever happened. Cailan would be King, Anora would still be running the joint. Orlais would be still hanging out in Orlais doing whatever it is those people do. Howe and Jowan would be up on the gallows where he belonged and I hope that slavery business in the Alienage wouldn't have happened.

The battle plans at Ostagar were Loghain's plans.

No. All of this bloodshed and bull**** is on Loghain's head. That's why his head went a rollin' in my book. Even if Alistair took Riordin's side, I still would have chopped his damn head off. Seeing as I still win the game afterwards, it's arguable his great generalness wouldn't have made that much of an impact anyway. The blight's horde of darkspawn isn't exactly a foe to be out manovered, their a brainless pack of zombie-like creatures under the direction of an Archdemon. Take out the Archdemon, the fight is over. It isn't like fighting an army of men where you have to use all these fancy tactics.

If anyone (Riordin, also an idiot) think I'm going to put that psycho in charge after going through all that work to solve everyone else's problems (Including Redcliffe, which was his fault to start with) and gather an army to stop the darkspawn and then end the civil war that HE started, then they are a fool. The theme of the game has been up until this point been "If you want to get something done, do it yourself." No reason to change here. 

Alistair, you watch the gates so that us grown ups can go play with the Archdemon. Riordin, go do your stabby stabby fall to your death thing. Me, time for tea with the Archdemon. ONWARD WOOO! 

So, even knowing that you need a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon, you metagamed leaving Alistair at the gate so that he couldn't kill himself, and yet claim to not be a fangirl?

 I didn't have too much trouble siding with Alistair, and it isn't because I'm a deluded fangirl

That's all good and all, but let's be honest shall we?  You want to please Alistair, and did what you had to do to do it, and even if there was overwhelming evidence against what you post, you would have done the same thing, wouldn't you?  BTW, nobody suggested putting Loghain in charge.  I'm not sure where you got that from, is it something that Alistair told you in a vision dream?

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Alistair doesn't "lie about his heritage" he simply isn't forthcoming with you about his history if a) he doesn't like you or he's not with you. Lying and simply not telling are very different things imo.

A lie of omission is still a lie.  This fact is used regularly by the Morrigan Haters Club concerning the ritual.  However, the fact is that knowing that the heir apparent to the throne is alive and well, and standing right beside you is surely useful information, no?  In fact, if you directly ask him if he knows who his father is, he will lie.  He only comes clean when you go to Redcliffe, if he's even with you, because he knows Eamon will spill his beans.  HIs approval rating has nothing to do with his telling you if you go to Redcliffe, he knows one way or the other his secret is out, so he tells you.

Regarding Spock, he would see the logic first, because his decision isn't weighted with the emotional kneejerk reactions.  Also, assuming Spock as a Grey Warden, it wouldn't be prudent to spill out any pertinent details about a secretive order in front of the whole of the governing body of Ferelden.  I was frankly disappointed that Riordan didn't conscribe Loghain, but I also understand why.  This is a decision that the devs wanted you to make, and wanted you to bear the responsibility for.

Yet he's the one who encourages you to go to Redcliffe to gain Eamon's help. He knows by doing this that he will have to tell you eventually. He chooses to wait until the last minute and he has his reasons for doing so: he doesn't want the news to bias your opinion of him one way or another. Sure he's purposefully withholding the information but only long enough for you to be able to draw your own opinion of him and not so long that it's going to change what you do or how you handle anything.

I dealt with this earlier, but if he was really interested in going to Redcliffe first, then in camp, the night you have your first nightmare coming out of Lothering, when there are 5 people in camp, he could have told the PC his dirty little secret.  Instead, because he doesn't want people looking at him differently, he hides this truth, and doesn't insist on Eamon first.  Instead, deferring to the PC in everything, including what's happening now, in my current save, where he gets to sit his crying ass in camp with his dolls and kleenex.  The fact that he would withhold something of that magnitude from the person that he is trusting to deal with all the other Grey Warden business we have to do speaks volumes to his actual character.  At this point, what matters is stopping the blight.  The fact that somebody with a legitimate enough claim on the throne to depose both Anora and Loghain is standing right beside you is pretty damned important.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

No, it's not to validate Alistair's claim on the throne, or the only outcome could be Alistair on the throne.

Uhmm no. This reasoning doesn't make sense. You're trying to establish that Alistair is a valid candidate, but that doesn't automatically make him the only candidate. Much like establishing one is the former king's bastard child doesn't make any other children of this particular king not eligible. Now Anora is not of royal blood (rather, she is already the reigning queen) but the gist remains the same. Appearance of a "challenger" doesn't mean the fight is over before it even begins.

Again, we are going in circles here.  First your position is that the first priority is that Loghain be stopped.  When this is shown to be false, you go to the duel deciding if Alistair should take the throne.

How exactly was this shown to be false? So far we've established that presence of Loghain is seen as factor which prevents the actual war against the Blight from happening. In this sense yes, it appears stopping Loghain has higher priority than the war against the Blight otherwise you'd be allowed to proceed without dealing with him, no?

Trying to establish Alistair as the ruler *is* done to deal with Loghain, to remove him from the office of regent in order to allow for the war to proceed in a country united under one ruler rather than country tearing itself apart. Now this plan can fail to some degree and you can wind up with Anora ruling instead, but with the outcome being roughly the same -- the Loghain is no longer a factor and the new leader does focus on fight with the Blight.

I won the duel, not Alistair.

You fight that duel as Alistair's champion, should you so choose. It doesn't change what the fight is about in the slightest, much like the duel being won by any other of your companions (should you pick them as the champion instead) doesn't make that companion suddenly any more important and the fight doesn't become about that companion's own interests.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 décembre 2009 - 01:22 .

[tmp7704]

Xandurpein wrote...

But winning doesn't have anything to do with establishing whether Alistair is King or not. It only settles who shall be the arbiter of who the next monarch should be - the player or Loghain. It's not about Alistair or Anora, it's about you or Loghain. If it was about Alistair becoming King then you would be his champion, not the other way around.

Perhaps this depends on the way the options are picked, but the playthrough i got made it pretty clear this is exactly the situation -- you (or the person you pick) is Alistair's champion. Relevant lines in dialogue go:

Elemena: "In the Maker's name, stop! We will have order!"
Eamon: "Agreed. Let there be no further bloodshed in the Landsmeet."
Elemena: "Alistair's right to the throne is challenged, his challenger's honor is in doubt: In the past, such disputes were settled by duel. Will the Landsmeet agree?"
Alfstanna: "Yes, if it will avoid further bloodshed. But it must be fought according to tradition: by strength of arms only, in single combat, until one party yields." "Do you accept the terms?"

player's choices:
* No. We refuse.
* Alistair accepts.
* Alistair accepts. I will be his champion
* Yes. (companion's name) will be Alistair's champion.

edit: apparently this depends on whether the Landsmeet votes for Loghain or against him. If it's against him then he tries to pull a Bhelen and in the end the fight is indeed between Loghain and the player themselves and Alistair's right to the throne somehow doesn't really come up, which flows rather awkward imo.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 décembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

But winning doesn't have anything to do with establishing whether Alistair is King or not. It only settles who shall be the arbiter of who the next monarch should be - the player or Loghain. It's not about Alistair or Anora, it's about you or Loghain. If it was about Alistair becoming King then you would be his champion, not the other way around.

Perhaps this depends on the way the options are picked, but the playthrough i got made it pretty clear this is exactly the situation -- you (or the person you pick) is Alistair's champion. Relevant lines in dialogue go:

Elemena: "In the Maker's name, stop! We will have order!"
Eamon: "Agreed. Let there be no further bloodshed in the Landsmeet."
Elemena: "Alistair's right to the throne is challenged, his challenger's honor is in doubt: In the past, such disputes were settled by duel. Will the Landsmeet agree?"
Alfstanna: "Yes, if it will avoid further bloodshed. But it must be fought according to tradition: by strength of arms only, in single combat, until one party yields." "Do you accept the terms?"

player's choices:
* No. We refuse.
* Alistair accepts.
* Alistair accepts. I will be his champion
* Yes. (companion's name) will be Alistair's champion.

It's fun having your various party members be the champion.  I like the smack talking.  Wynne REALLY hates Loghain!

[SarEnyaDor]

I still really like Dog, just to hear Eamon's reply.



*priceless*

[ResoluteOne]

I understand the game has to give you options or it would not be much fun.  I just don't see why people expect that sparing Logain is the natual development and continuation of the plot in any way shape or form.  Riorden comes out of left to make the suggestion and going along with this reverses the plot 180 degrees from what had been the goal. Logain has betrayed just about ever other main character  in the game including in some origins the PC directly.

Just because some players decided they don't liike Alistair and he is
the one who speaks up about it then  we are inventing nonsense reasons
to ignore that getting rid of him is the single most important thing up to now.  Alot of people don't see the irony they
are spewing forth by suggesting Alistair is weak and squishy and not
following his principles when he is clearly the most difficult
companion to please morally.  That is exactly the reason why he is
always complaining and why he leaves if you make the boneheaded choice
of sparing the main enemy in the story up to now.

[robertthebard]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]robertthebard wrote...



[quote]I won the duel, not Alistair.[/quote]You fight that duel as Alistair's champion, should you so choose. It doesn't change what the fight is about in the slightest, much like the duel being won by any other of your companions (should you pick them as the champion instead) doesn't make that companion suddenly any more important and the fight doesn't become about that companion's own interests.[/quote]
No.  The dialog is between the PC and Loghain.  Hence why he asks me if I'll fight myself or choose a champion.  Do you really think Alistair would choose Dog to fight Loghain?  If we were acting as Alistair's champion, then this whole story line would not exist, because Alistair would never not choose to fight Loghain, and Loghain would always die, despite the rules set out by the Landsmeet prior.

[ResoluteOne]

Really the writers would have improved things by making more characters then just Alistair object to spare Logain.

Modifié par ResoluteOne, 28 décembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[robertthebard]

ResoluteOne wrote...

I understand the game has to give you options or it would not be much fun.  I just don't see why people expect that sparing Logain is the natual development and continuation of the plot in any way shape or form.  Riorden comes out of left to make the suggestion and going along with this reverses the plot 180 degrees from what had been the goal. Logain has betrayed just about ever other main character  in the game including in some origins the PC directly.

Just because some players decided they don't liike Alistair and he is
the one who speaks up about it then  we are inventing nonsense reasons
to ignore that getting rid of him is the single most important thing up to now.  Alot of people don't see the irony they
are spewing forth by suggesting Alistair is weak and squishy and not
following his principles when he is clearly the most difficult
companion to please morally.  That is exactly the reason why he is
always complaining and why he leaves if you make the boneheaded choice
of sparing the main enemy in the story up to now.

Alistair is really easy to please, all you have to do is lick his boots for the whole game.  You see, I did this play through with a female City Elf to get my romance Alistair achievement.  It's all well and good, until I go to Redcliffe to do Sten's side quest, completely forgetting that I don't have Alistair in party.  No Alistair, no cutscene with him coming clean.  Now, I'm guilty of the biggest crime ever committed in a role playing game, I role played my chars reaction, after almost a year of romancing Alistair, when Eamon tells me he's going to put Alistair forward as the King at the Landsmeet.

Yes, I know, I'm supposed to metagame, and lick boots, not role play in a role playing game.  I missed that chapter in the manual.  So, when I do this big crime, and tell him I don't know who he is any more, which is actually quite true, since all my character knows about Alistair is the lie he's been telling for the whole game, all treaties done already, and Alistair in every party configuration I ran, except for Sten's sword,   Even when I asked him directly who his father was, he lied.  So role playing my character's reaction, and betrayal at being treated like just another elf by just another human, he gets to throw his hissy fit.  Then, the icing on the cake, I have to apologize to him for him lying to me the whole game.  Ok, so I swallow my City Elf pride, and make the effort, and he comes off as this huge ass about it.  You even get the option to call him on it, and I do.  -15 approval, and a break up, because he lied to me.

So I'll tell ya'.  I'm not going to lick his boots, because there's a reason he has brown eyes, and it's bound to spill out.  So tell me, is this the guy I'm supposed to support for King?  Am I to take these actual in game experiences, and say that Alistair hasn't done more to me negatively than Loghain?  Yeah, he was selling my people into slavery, just like every other noble in Denerim.  Think not, let's look again at how my City Elf got into the Wardens...Oh yeah, that's right, she got kidnapped by the Arl of Denerim's son for the amusement of himself and his little friends.  One of my friends was murdered, and so was my fiance, and I really wanted to get married.  Of course, all of this pales in comparison to "everybody would look at me differently if I told them I was Maric's son".  OMG, my cousing being raped during the kidnapping is less important than Alistair's feeling about his birthright.  So yeah, feel free to say nobody has any justification to despise Alistair.  If the Murder Knife had been an option, I'd have used it on his never gonna be King ass right then.

Regarding my previous post, I guess you didn't do the footwork to win the Landsmeet?  I've never lost it.  So I have no idea what happens if you don't try to win it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

It's time to come clean - I have the same problem with the Grey Wardens that I do with the Jedi - you can try all you like to divorce a person from their emotions, but short of making them Tranquil it WON'T work, and eventually you'll tell a young man not to rescue his mother when it was actually possible, he'll find her dying and snap and destroy the universe as we know it ... or leave your group and become a drunk or headless.

There are reasons people are called heroes when they put others lives before their own, because it is rare. Becoming a Grey Warden doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a tainted person with a shortened lifespan who is exactly the same the next day as he was the day before - whether that is tragically naive or ruthless, good or bad, greedy or generous.

I find it hilarious that people are outraged over Alistair's tantrum - it is what MOST real life people would do. Most people react first, re-think later. There was no time for re-thinking, and there was sketchy info given that was at all remotely likely to change his mind. He is a human, not a freaking paragon (and from what I've seen of the dwarf Paragons they aren't all that great, either)

People walk away from their duties ALL THE TIME for various pathetic reasons that usually aren't even as visceral as letting a guy go who killed your surrogate father, all of your friends and destroyed the country - just look at American politicians and sports figures as of late if you can't think of any examples of people totally forgetting their duty for meaningless things.

So I really don't see how Alistair can't be forgiven reacting like a human being, but Loghain can be forgiven for all of his crimes....

Thank you. You summed it up better than I could. Becoming a Warden does not suddenly strip you of your own human emotion, experience, and values. You do not become a single-minded blight dweller who completely forgets all personal desires, feelings, and values.

Alistair did bat an eye when Jory was gutted, his expression was pretty horrified, but he really couldn't or wouldn't say anything, because he trusted Duncan's judgement. For that matter, the PC doesn't get much opportunity to do the same, other than a lame "You killed Ser Jory". After you drink the blood.

People also forget Alistair's fondness for Duncan stemmed from the fact that Duncan rescued him from the Chantry and was the first person to actually seem to care about what he wanted for himself. Which means that most likely, Alistair viewed him through exceptionally rosy tinted glasses. He did not know Duncan that long. Would his views have been the same after knowing him longer? There are plenty of situations in the game where Duncan would have probably approved of some action or descision that Alistair would have found offensive, pushing hard on the boundaries of his own personal values and morals.

Thus, I find the "what would Duncan do" arguement quite weak, really, all things considered.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I don't think Alistair's behavior is odd if he needs to team up with the man who was essentially the antagonist throughout the game - or with his daughter. In my latest play-through Alistair married Anora and Loghain became a party member. That must be hard to swallow.



But I don't like how Alistair behaves in any situation leading to the end. It's OK that a man cries, but he slobbered a bit too much for my taste, I didn't like his attitude and humor at all, so as soon as I was able to get rid of him I replaced him by Sten. In my first play-through I thought Alistair was required and I was glad to be able to dump him in later games.



Not liking Alistair made it easier to play alternate endings...



In my latest game I played the role of a "whatever-it-takes-to-win-warden". The wars had too many fronts and needed to end fast, because the Arch Demon was on the doorstep. So Alistair marrying Anora and keeping the hero of the people alive is an option that unites Ferelden against the Blight. I wouldn't go as far as using blood magic (like Sophia) to achieve my goal, but in a next game I might consider it.

[robertthebard]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thank you. You summed it up better than I could. Becoming a Warden does not suddenly strip you of your own human emotion, experience, and values. You do not become a single-minded blight dweller who completely forgets all personal desires, feelings, and values.

Alistair did bat an eye when Jory was gutted, his expression was pretty horrified, but he really couldn't or wouldn't say anything, because he trusted Duncan's judgement. For that matter, the PC doesn't get much opportunity to do the same, other than a lame "You killed Ser Jory". After you drink the blood.

People also forget Alistair's fondness for Duncan stemmed from the fact that Duncan rescued him from the Chantry and was the first person to actually seem to care about what he wanted for himself. Which means that most likely, Alistair viewed him through exceptionally rosy tinted glasses. He did not know Duncan that long. Would his views have been the same after knowing him longer? There are plenty of situations in the game where Duncan would have probably approved of some action or descision that Alistair would have found offensive, pushing hard on the boundaries of his own personal values and morals.

Thus, I find the "what would Duncan do" arguement quite weak, really, all things considered.

...and yet the denial machine that is Alistair chalked Jory's death up to the Joining, despite how it went down.  "Two more deaths, only one person died at my Joining, but it was horrible". 

[Realmzmaster]

Alistair states that one person died at his Joining, but he never says how that person died. Maybe Duncan had to eliminate that one also. So Jory getting killed would not be novel. Denial machine or just acceptance?

[Default137]

Once again, since people don't seem to want to answer the base question, and instead try to say Alistar is just being himself.



Why is MY Alistar, you know, the guy who got over Duncans death, who gained the mentality that we had to do whatever it took to win, the guy who had seen how bad the Blight is, who was hopelessly in love with my character, betraying all of Ferelden in a way that Loghain could never hope to match.



I understand why normal Alistar would, walk away, and why people could accept that, but why does this also affect the hardened Alistar, or one who has totally changed into a much more "whatever it takes" mentality.

[kormesios]

I played my last (for a while) playthough planning to spare Loghain.

To my surprise, when Alistair through his "fit," I had to agree with him, and killed him anyway.  The simple point Alistair makes--great general or not, Loghain's as likely to kil you when he's on "your" side as he is on the other side--was perfectly valid.  Given the choice between the two, not using out-of-game knowledge that Loghain would now be absolutely loyal, Alistair's the one you want backing you up. 

And since Alistair voluntairly sacrificed himself when the demon was down, I'm fine with that decision.

ejoslin wrote...

Everyone gets what Loghain has done. My question stands -- Alistair gave up all decision making rights very early -- he chose to trust the PC for whatever reason (I have no clue why he would, other than he's a mess).

Alistair doesn't give up "all decision making rights".  He says he'll go along with what you suggest, when it comes to combating the blight.  He think you're both working towards the same goal.

That's not the same as becoming your puppet.  For most of the game, he'll object when you do something he considers immoral, even if he hasn't reached his breaking piont.  But when he decides you're showing horrible judgment, he stops going along.

The PC is his superior.

Not clear that the Grey Wardens had a strict military hierarchy.  Even if they did, you are still only formal equals--deferring to a fellow soldier doesn't mean he's now above you in the chain of command.

[ozsras]

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet the denial machine that is Alistair chalked Jory's death up to the Joining, despite how it went down.  "Two more deaths, only one person died at my Joining, but it was horrible". 

You know this is going to sound crazy but my first reaction on my first playthrough after seeing Daveth die and Jory gutted was... 'wait do two people have to be sacrificed in order for the Joining to work?" I mean I know that's a stupid idea but the way Duncan apologized to Davith and Jory - I really thought, just for a second, that he used them as sacrifical lambs. I think it's because I realized that the Joining ritual wasn't on the up and up.

But then Duncan and Alistair were all "yeah too bad they had to die, so you ready to grab some dinner before you meet the King?"

I still think the Joining is blood magic.

[Realmzmaster]

Default137 wrote...

Once again, since people don't seem to want to answer the base question, and instead try to say Alistar is just being himself.

Why is MY Alistar, you know, the guy who got over Duncans death, who gained the mentality that we had to do whatever it took to win, the guy who had seen how bad the Blight is, who was hopelessly in love with my character, betraying all of Ferelden in a way that Loghain could never hope to match.

I understand why normal Alistar would, walk away, and why people could accept that, but why does this also affect the hardened Alistar, or one who has totally changed into a much more "whatever it takes" mentality.

Your assumption here is that he got over Duncan's death. He gets hardened that is true, but even then there are points where he will critize your decisions if he thinks they are wrong or immoral. Just because he loves you does not mean his hate for Loghain is any less intense. Love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. Maybe he hates Loghain more than he loves your character.
We all assume that Alistair is that naive guy hiding behind jokes. The jokes are there to deflect your questions, but also can hide something more sinister, an intense hatred for Loghain. Let's face it he hates Loghain and not without good reason. The Grey Wardens are more to Alistair than just a group to fight the Blight and darkspawn, they are family.
You asking Loghain to join the family is a little to much for him to bear no matter how much he loves your character. The family at best has three immediate members and now you are saying let Loghain join. That is like your mother marrying the man who killed your daddy. He sees as the ultimate betrayal. The love he has for you can quickly turn to hate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet the denial machine that is Alistair chalked Jory's death up to the Joining, despite how it went down.  "Two more deaths, only one person died at my Joining, but it was horrible". 

You're reading waaay too much into things.




Also, even a hardened Alistair never has the "whatever it takes" mentality. Alistair has firm moral lines he will not compromise.

Default137 wrote...

The thing alot of you who are defending Alistars actions are failing to realize is, to almost all of Ferelden, even before what Loghain did, Loghain was an amazing hero/general, he was literally the most well known and respected figure in Ferelden at some points in time.

At the point of the Landsmeet, we as Gray Wardens know what he has done, but after we beat him in combat, thats done with, he's been bested, his aspirations have fallen, he can never pull that stunt again, the people would never accept it, and he knows it, for all intents and purposes, he is dead to the country.

As a purely non extremely, emotional person, look at the crowd, look at your companions, look at Riodan, NONE of them want you to kill Loghain besides Alistar, and in fact the HIGHEST Gray Warden alive comes up with the scheme to bring the most powerful General/Warrior Ferelden has ever known into your organization for the final battle.

Lets look at this from your characters point of view, you spent the entire game being drilled that we must do WHATEVER it takes to beat the Blight, you've been assembling massive armies, but probably are a little worried you might not be able to lead them well by yourself, you've been building a group of stalwart companions who have their own personalities, but all seem to agree with you on that one main point.

Finally you reach Loghain, and duel him, and end up winning! You are the victor, you have bested him, he surrenders, and its up to you to decide what to do with him, suddenly, the leader of your organization comes over, points out you will need a good leaders to lead your army, and Loghain has been the military leader of Ferelden for centuries, and would do anything for his country.

2+2.

Alistar ended up breaking so much that he had built up over the entire game with his actions, he betrayed the Wardens Oath, he betrayed the Wardens, he betrayed Duncans ideals, he betrayed you, he betrayed Ferelden, he betrayed it all in the name of some petty vengeance that did not need to resort to blood, making him appear to be little more then a child with a sword.

And thats why I hate this encounter, yeah, maybe if you made your character an emotional wreck who doesn't understand the meaning of the Oath, or love poor Alistar so much you'll do whatever he wants, and cuddle him when he cries about poor Duncan, then yeah, storming off makes sense, but in my game, I got him over Duncans death, I got him hardened, in the later ally quests, he really got to understand the "whatever it takes philosophy", yet he still cried like a little girl and ran off the second I decided to put Loghain in charge of the armies against the Archdemon.

This wasn't powergaming or metagaming either, I really liked Alistar, and was planning on romancing him to the end, but his actions in the Landsmeet think he isn't even old enough to handle a sword, let alone a romance, and after reading what he does to anything other then Human Noble characters makes me agree with this. I'm suprised he does so well as King actually, and think Bioware probably just did that to make sure it will be canon in the sequel, because having him ruin Ferelden with his utter lack of a spine would not please all his fangirls.

Let my say this - bullcrap.
Loghain can still try to pull stunts. Even if he is defeated at the Landsmeet, he still has enough supporters to cause big trouble.
I never got hte impression that I needed to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING (as some of you like to point out) to stop the blight. Such extremism allways end up doing more bad than good - canse in point, Loghain, Branka, etc...
Frankly, the first time I played it I was all "WTF??" - bot hat Loghians surrender and Rhiodans proposal.

First of all, Loghains sudden trust in me, just because I beaten him. He considered me a spy and a danger, but when I beat him he suddenly thinks I'm good for Ferelden? What kind of logic is that? Your'e good with a sword, therefore you can't be an Orlesian spy! Frankly, Loghians sudden change had me suspecting he was schizio or really messed up in the head. 
Then comes Rhiordan, who wants to make him a Grey Warden. Wait, didn't you tell me we had no more Archdemons blood? And why him of all people? There's thousands of knights in Denerim, there's 4 armeis full of potential recruits at Redcliffe...what the hell do I need him for? What sane person would trust him?

Off with his head, or throw him into the dungeon (seriously, WHY ISN'T THERE AN OPTION FOR THIS???)

***

Then Alistair.  His fit is a perfectly normal and human reaction. Can't fault him for it. If he wants to quit the Wardens, it's his choice. IMHO, the right to quit any organization you no longer belive in is the right of any human being. No oaths were ever given IIRC, and he's done more than his fair share of the work anyway. He can sit out the last battle. Not my personal choice, but I can accept that.

Interesting that his defiance at the Landsmeet is him showing some serious spine, and people are calling him spineless for it. Crazy people.

another thing - you can love and respect someone without being a copy of that person or agreeing or following that person completely. "What would Duncan do" is irrelevant. Aspireing to be like someone doesn't have to mean to want to be completely like him in every way, but rather in some specifics.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 décembre 2009 - 08:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...

Replay Ostagar and listen to Duncan. Read and/or listen closely. That will tell you what is expected of true Grey Wardens. Listen to the oath again. Alistair doesn't grasp it at all, even though he speaks it. My PC gets told that she has to put the slaughter of her whole house on the back-burner because the blight is what is important. Duncan tells her it is 'far' more important than the butchering of her family, lover, and friends/servants. You may hear something different, but that's how I understand what is repeated over and over. We do whatever it takes. No disclaimers, or restrictions, or exceptions.

There is no personal line in the Grey Wardens. Blood magic is allowed, murder is allowed, everything is allowed as long as it wipes out the archdemon. Alistair forsook having 'personal lines' when he joined. If Jory has to die, so does Alistair. No two sets of rules should apply.

There is no personal line in the GW's???
Nonsense. There's allways a personal line.

Duncan can say whatever he wants, his words and thoughts are not gospel, nor is he the perfect representative of all Grey Wardens everywhere.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
He can be as outraged as he wants. I just don't accept that he decides to take his anger out on the inhabitants of Ferelden, by betraying his oath to defend them, just because he is mad at the character and Loghain. It's the people of Ferelden he punish, not me.

Soo...if a soldier fights for years in Vietnam and is responsible for many victories that brought his side in a favorable position, and becomes disillusioned in the army, and wants to take a break from the fighting....he's a traitor and a bastard?

Alistair saved many during his travel with the PC, he fought and killed darkspawn aplenty, helped gather armies and by this actions alone is a hero of Ferelden. So he abandons you before the final fight? Sad, but when he does so you are in a good position, in no small part thanks to him. He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)