353 réponses à ce sujet

[Cybercat999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

What is the point of 99 fights when they are rendered useless if he doesnt fight the 100th one? Its called finishing the job you started. Not many people will admire your work if you fail in producing a result.

And yes, we know what is he up during the last parts of the game. According to Anora he is pouting in the room upstairs.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

What is the point of 99 fights when they are rendered useless if he doesnt fight the 100th one? Its called finishing the job you started. Not many people will admire your work if you fail in producing a result.

And yes, we know what is he up during the last parts of the game. According to Anora he is pouting in the room upstairs.

Thay are not rendered useless. The point of the 99 battles was to raise an army, get Ferelden ready to fight. That was accomplished. And Alistair doesn't know a GW is needed at that point, so 1 fighting man more or less is meaninglessin the grand scope of things.

Also, that is before the battle. You dont' talk to Anora during the battle.

[Cybercat999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

What is the point of 99 fights when they are rendered useless if he doesnt fight the 100th one? Its called finishing the job you started. Not many people will admire your work if you fail in producing a result.

And yes, we know what is he up during the last parts of the game. According to Anora he is pouting in the room upstairs.

Thay are not rendered useless. The point of the 99 battles was to raise an army, get Ferelden ready to fight. That was accomplished. And Alistair doesn't know a GW is needed at that point, so 1 fighting man more or less is meaninglessin the grand scope of things.

Also, that is before the battle. You dont' talk to Anora during the battle.

Alitair would raise crap if you didnt explicitly tell him what to do and where to go. All he knows is Eamon and I can imagine him going straight to Redcliffe and then expecting Teagan to tell him what to do, what would end in one of the Haven corpses being his. He fights along just like everyone else in your party, but unlike others who have actual reasons he does so because you told him to. Good little soldier following command, far from the hero material tho and far from being actually responsible for any good deed that came out of all the fights.

You see Anora at Redcliffe, you see her before the battle, you see her after the battle. You dont see Alistair at all. I think its safe to assume hes still pouting in his room.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
He can be as outraged as he wants. I just don't accept that he decides to take his anger out on the inhabitants of Ferelden, by betraying his oath to defend them, just because he is mad at the character and Loghain. It's the people of Ferelden he punish, not me.

Soo...if a soldier fights for years in Vietnam and is responsible for many victories that brought his side in a favorable position, and becomes disillusioned in the army, and wants to take a break from the fighting....he's a traitor and a bastard?

Alistair saved many during his travel with the PC, he fought and killed darkspawn aplenty, helped gather armies and by this actions alone is a hero of Ferelden. So he abandons you before the final fight? Sad, but when he does so you are in a good position, in no small part thanks to him. He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

Actually I think you are making my point, not your own. To my knowledge those soldiers who got disilluioned during Vietnam, did NOT want to fight the war on their countrys behalf. That it was NOT about betraying his squad mates, but about the fact that his government (and by extension the people the government represent) were wrong about the war.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Replay Ostagar and listen to Duncan. Read and/or listen closely. That will tell you what is expected of true Grey Wardens. Listen to the oath again. Alistair doesn't grasp it at all, even though he speaks it. My PC gets told that she has to put the slaughter of her whole house on the back-burner because the blight is what is important. Duncan tells her it is 'far' more important than the butchering of her family, lover, and friends/servants. You may hear something different, but that's how I understand what is repeated over and over. We do whatever it takes. No disclaimers, or restrictions, or exceptions.

There is no personal line in the Grey Wardens. Blood magic is allowed, murder is allowed, everything is allowed as long as it wipes out the archdemon. Alistair forsook having 'personal lines' when he joined. If Jory has to die, so does Alistair. No two sets of rules should apply.

There is no personal line in the GW's???
Nonsense. There's allways a personal line.

Duncan can say whatever he wants, his words and thoughts are not gospel, nor is he the perfect representative of all Grey Wardens everywhere.

How many Grey Wardens do you know from anywhere?  Where are you drawing this information that Duncan isn't the quintessential Grey Warden?  Is there some lore I missed some where?  In the MMO genre they say "screenshot or it didn't happen".  I'm going to ask for some documentation, official documentation, that Duncan isn't typical for a Grey Warden.  I know I can already think of two Wardens that were beneath Alistair, according to his scale.  the sad part is, he turns over leadership to one of them.  However, provide me with some links to something from a writer that says that Duncan was "bottom of the barrel", or at least more foul than any of the other Grey Wardens.

[robertthebard]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

What is the point of 99 fights when they are rendered useless if he doesnt fight the 100th one? Its called finishing the job you started. Not many people will admire your work if you fail in producing a result.

And yes, we know what is he up during the last parts of the game. According to Anora he is pouting in the room upstairs.

We fought those fights too, I guess we should just run away and get drunk too?

[Sabriana]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no personal line in the GW's???
Nonsense. There's allways a personal line.

Duncan can say whatever he wants, his words and thoughts are not gospel, nor is he the perfect representative of all Grey Wardens everywhere.

What is nonsense to you makes perfect sense to others. That it is nonsense is your opinion only. Duncan, as per Alistair, is the leader of the Ferelden GW. His words are gospel to Alistair and the PC, simply because there are no other sources of information for either. Alistair worships the ground Duncan walks on, even though we have only his word about Duncan's motivations. Listen to him when the PC replies "maybe he found you useful".

Later on, when talking about recruiting more GWs, Alistair replies something like "I know it involves blood, lyrium, and magic, but I'm not sure how exactly the ritual goes." That's blood-magic to me. Yet, when Isolde's sacrifice is accepted, he throws a fit about 'using blood magic'. On top of that - if you were lucky enough to have him in your party entering Redcliffe for the first time - he told your PC earlier that it was entirely Isolde's doing that he ended up in the chantry, that Isolde made sure the castle didn't feel like a home for  him any more, and that she despised him.

My PC didn't take him along the second time around, he got dumped at camp with his action figures permanently. So he wasn't in any fight after acquiring Sten.

All of that is beside the point anyway. He storms off and gets to live, either by becoming King or a drunk. He knows that every GW is desperately needed in the fight against a foe that threatens to annihilate all of Ferelden. He mopes around for Duncan all game long, but in the end he betrays everything Duncan stands for. He betrays his people, his country, and the Grey Wardens  just because he didn't get his way, due to the PC's decision.
Fine, let him leave the group, let him be po'd to the max. Let him hate my PC forever and ever. But don't betray and desert those who desperately need you.

The possibility of Loghain betraying everyone after joining is there, of course. But that's irrelevant. The Blight is the biggest threat at the moment and vanquishing it is the highest priority. Once that's over, we can deal with all else. If I have to make a deal with a devil, who is at your mercy at the moment, to kill a demon, who is a clear and present danger to all life in Ferelden, then I do that. I will deal with the repercussions later. After the people and the country are saved from a terrible horror in which death is the most merciful thing that can be hoped for.

If I don't throw everything at my disposal at the Blight in order to end it, everything else is irrelevant anyways. The Blight wins - everyone loses, and Loghain and his possible betrayal are a moot point.

Edited because paragraphs are ftw.

Modifié par Sabriana, 28 décembre 2009 - 12:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cybercat999 wrote...
Alitair would raise crap if you didnt explicitly tell him what to do and where to go. All he knows is Eamon and I can imagine him going straight to Redcliffe and then expecting Teagan to tell him what to do, what would end in one of the Haven corpses being his. He fights along just like everyone else in your party, but unlike others who have actual reasons he does so because you told him to. Good little soldier following command, far from the hero material tho and far from being actually responsible for any good deed that came out of all the fights.

You have any proof pof this?

If you don't mention the treaties, he will. If you try to quit, he will not.
The PC is the party leader, but to think Alistair is nothing but a sword arm and useless without you is the biggest example of self-ego stroking I've ever seen.
He's capable and determined enough. I have 0 doubt he would be fully capable of raising the armioes without the PC, or with him as the leader and hte PC as companion...but we wouldn't have much of a game then, now would we?

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
We fought those fights too, I guess we should just run away and get drunk too?

Well, it would be nice if people could get things done without the PC holding their hands. We need a new quest area...one where you come in and, hand a treaty and the leader sez "OK".
I bet the party would get a strange reaction:
"What? No monsters that besiege you? No undead that rise to haunt you? No curses to lift? No materials to gather, keys to find, mysteries to solve, betrayls to uncover, cults to exppose or maidens to rescue?"
"Nah, we're good."
"That's...refereshing for a change."

Shortest and best area...ever.

What is nonsense to you makes perfect sense to others. That it is nonsense is your opinion only. Duncan, as per Alistair, is the leader of the Ferelden GW. His words are gospel to Alistair and the PC, simply because there are no other sources of information for either. Alistair worships the ground Duncan walks on, even though we have only his word about Duncan's motivations. Listen to him when the PC replies "maybe he found you useful".

That still doesn't make it gospel. The Grey Wardens have a task to do. But how they do it is up to them.

Later on, when talking about recruiting more GWs, Alistair replies something like "I know it involves blood, lyrium, and magic, but I'm not sure how exactly the ritual goes." That's blood-magic to me. Yet, when Isolde's sacrifice is accepted, he throws a fit about 'using blood magic'.

Magic to perserve the blood.
That's different from blood magic. Really..just cause it has to do with blood doesn't make it blood magic. You're being too literal.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...
Alitair would raise crap if you didnt explicitly tell him what to do and where to go. All he knows is Eamon and I can imagine him going straight to Redcliffe and then expecting Teagan to tell him what to do, what would end in one of the Haven corpses being his. He fights along just like everyone else in your party, but unlike others who have actual reasons he does so because you told him to. Good little soldier following command, far from the hero material tho and far from being actually responsible for any good deed that came out of all the fights.

You have any proof pof this?

If you don't mention the treaties, he will. If you try to quit, he will not.
The PC is the party leader, but to think Alistair is nothing but a sword arm and useless without you is the biggest example of self-ego stroking I've ever seen.
He's capable and determined enough. I have 0 doubt he would be fully capable of raising the armioes without the PC, or with him as the leader and hte PC as companion...but we wouldn't have much of a game then, now would we?

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader. If he was all you make him out he would be the leader and, as you point out it wouldn't be much of a game. The developers even said that originally they envisioned Alistair as a tougher Grey Warden veteran, but they dropped it because then it wouldn't make sense for him not to take charge and then it would ruin the game. The game pretty much demands that he is a follower and not a leader. 

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He fought in 99 battles, does he really have to fight in the 100th?
Note thta we dont' even know what he was up to during hte fight at Denerim. He may have been fighting (I'd actually expect to find him in the Market district, fighting)

What is the point of 99 fights when they are rendered useless if he doesnt fight the 100th one? Its called finishing the job you started. Not many people will admire your work if you fail in producing a result.

And yes, we know what is he up during the last parts of the game. According to Anora he is pouting in the room upstairs.

We fought those fights too, I guess we should just run away and get drunk too?

Heh, my PC on my first play through wanted to do exactly that on the first play through when she got dumped on the eve of battle.  But she was general of the army and the world was counting on her, so she had to go anyway.

It's funny when people defend BOTH of these Alistair endings.  If he's betrayed and devastated, it's ok if he runs away and gets drunk instead of fighting that final battle which determines all, but if he is the betrayer, even though he has really crappy timing, since he had to break it off it's fine for him to do it at the worst possible moment and ensure that your general has even one more thing on her shoulders.

I love the character, but his actions at the end in either of those scenarios undermines everything that the PC had built.  And I also don't buy that Alistair was a hero even if he doesn't fight that final battle.  The PC IS the hero because no matter what, they see it through until the end.  Heck, even Arl Eamon and First Enchanter Irving are up there on the roof fighting the arch demon.  That's what you do, even if you don't "have" to do it, to save your country, even if you are upset.

[Kohaku]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...
Alitair would raise crap if you didnt explicitly tell him what to do and where to go. All he knows is Eamon and I can imagine him going straight to Redcliffe and then expecting Teagan to tell him what to do, what would end in one of the Haven corpses being his. He fights along just like everyone else in your party, but unlike others who have actual reasons he does so because you told him to. Good little soldier following command, far from the hero material tho and far from being actually responsible for any good deed that came out of all the fights.

You have any proof pof this?

If you don't mention the treaties, he will. If you try to quit, he will not.
The PC is the party leader, but to think Alistair is nothing but a sword arm and useless without you is the biggest example of self-ego stroking I've ever seen.
He's capable and determined enough. I have 0 doubt he would be fully capable of raising the armioes without the PC, or with him as the leader and hte PC as companion...but we wouldn't have much of a game then, now would we?

That IS all he is. You never have to use Alistair if you don't want to and he's only important in some plots. He gets pissy about what the player character does, but won't take the lead himself to change those outcomes. If he doesn't have anything constructive to add he should just shut it. Simple.

Also, if he was so "leader worthy" why, if he does leave, is it possible for him to become a rambling drunk? If that were me, not matter what slight was thrown at me, I'd make something of myself. Not be a self defeatist.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

No.  The dialog is between the PC and Loghain.  Hence why he asks me if I'll fight myself or choose a champion.  Do you really think Alistair would choose Dog to fight Loghain?  If we were acting as Alistair's champion, then this whole story line would not exist, because Alistair would never not choose to fight Loghain, and Loghain would always die, despite the rules set out by the Landsmeet prior.

As i pointed out in the next post after this one you replied to, the plot can go two ways here. In one branch it's about Alistair's right to the throne and there you can choose to act as Alistair's champion (or choose any of your companion for that or let Alistair fight himself). In another branch, the one which happens if you win the Landsmeet vote and skip the all-out brawl the fight happens between Loghain and the player's character over whether Loghain should just step down and call it a day.

[tmp7704]

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

No if the PC Warden hadn't have been there, he probably would be dead, either killed by the Ogre in the Tower of Ishal or killed by Morrigan and/or Flemeth after he continued to act like a snivelling cry baby that he was acting like when you go out to talk to Flemeth.



Ok, maybe they would have talked some sense in to him to escort him out of the wilds, he probably would have told Morrigan to get lost at Lothering and made his way to Redcliffe where he then would've ended up dead along with the rest of the Redcliffe villagers.

[tmp7704]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

No if the PC Warden hadn't have been there, he probably would be dead, either killed by the Ogre in the Tower of Ishal or killed by Morrigan and/or Flemeth after he continued to act like a snivelling cry baby that he was acting like when you go out to talk to Flemeth.

Ok, maybe they would have talked some sense in to him to escort him out of the wilds, he probably would have told Morrigan to get lost at Lothering and made his way to Redcliffe where he then would've ended up dead along with the rest of the Redcliffe villagers.

Flemeth rescues the Wardens from the tower because she needs them, and Morrigan is going to put up with anything (or just go away and still show up in the end) for the same reason. They won't kill what they see as their only way to get the spawn of an Old God in their hands.

And really, the player's character is just one extra body in combat if you accept the idea other characters can be making and chugging these heal/mana pots without you specifically telling them to. One extra fighter is hardly a difference between victory and a full wipe if only one manages to get over the need to stroke their own ego.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 décembre 2009 - 02:53 .

[apantoliani]

robertthebard wrote...
That's all good and all, but let's be honest shall we?  You want to please Alistair, and did what you had to do to do it, and even if there was overwhelming evidence against what you post, you would have done the same thing, wouldn't you?  BTW, nobody suggested putting Loghain in charge.  I'm not sure where you got that from, is it something that Alistair told you in a vision dream?

No, not really. He's pixels that would have been sitting back at camp if I had the option to at Landsmeet. And if there was overwhelming evidence, which there isn't, I wouldn't have because then it wouldn't have been the same thing. As for putting Loghain in charge, Riordin was pretty much saying what an asset he'd be, how much of a hero and great general he is. 

Where I come from, Generals lead. That is how you utilize them. You put them in charge of armies. Specifically here, my armies. I wasn't about to get the keys to the kingdom from him only to give them back. I'm not saying that is all what was said, word for word, but that was the impression I came away from Landsmeet with, the first time, which was a while ago. I wasn't quite paraphrasing. I could have done a better job tying my post together with saying "I can see why Alistair is acting like a bat**** crazy loon because..." before hand, but I didn't. Oh well.

As for the rest, the part where you put words in my mouth. Nah, you can have all that to yourself. Maybe you dream of such things, but for me, he's just pixels. Sorry.

[ejoslin]

Actually, after you defeat Loghain, the PC is now the general. Even if you spare Loghain, you're general.

As far as Alistair surviving? Who knows. But in order for the whole thing to come together a leader is needed, not just warriors. Apparently the PC is so charismatic and such a strong leader that even as an elf, humans who barely know her are willing to follow her. And it would take a leader that strong to get it all together, and somehow I doubt that Alistair is that leader.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:35 .

[Xandurpein]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

Yes alistair can eventually turn out to be a decent King, but not on his own. His low self-esteem cripples him as a leader. It's up to the player to rebuild his self. Without the player to patch up his ego, he is mo leader at all.

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

Yes alistair can eventually turn out to be a decent King, but not on his own. His low self-esteem cripples him as a leader. It's up to the player to rebuild his self. Without the player to patch up his ego, he is mo leader at all.

In no circumstance is Alistair ruling on his own; someone is always ruling through him, be it Anora, Eamon, or the PC.

[Kohaku]

ejoslin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

Yes alistair can eventually turn out to be a decent King, but not on his own. His low self-esteem cripples him as a leader. It's up to the player to rebuild his self. Without the player to patch up his ego, he is mo leader at all.

In no circumstance is Alistair ruling on his own; someone is always ruling through him, be it Anora, Eamon, or the PC.

No matter what I feel about Loghain, he is so right with his puppetmaster comment.

[TrinityDivine]

sidion77 wrote...

Yeah I thought it was pretty silly but he seems to have had a powerful man-crush on Duncan so I guess sparing Loghain was too much for him. Personally I think his character a bit soft but that's maybe what makes him more appealing to others.

Nah. It's totally the accent that makes him appealing to... erm others.

[robertthebard]

apantoliani wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
That's all good and all, but let's be honest shall we?  You want to please Alistair, and did what you had to do to do it, and even if there was overwhelming evidence against what you post, you would have done the same thing, wouldn't you?  BTW, nobody suggested putting Loghain in charge.  I'm not sure where you got that from, is it something that Alistair told you in a vision dream?

No, not really. He's pixels that would have been sitting back at camp if I had the option to at Landsmeet. And if there was overwhelming evidence, which there isn't, I wouldn't have because then it wouldn't have been the same thing. As for putting Loghain in charge, Riordin was pretty much saying what an asset he'd be, how much of a hero and great general he is. 

Where I come from, Generals lead. That is how you utilize them. You put them in charge of armies. Specifically here, my armies. I wasn't about to get the keys to the kingdom from him only to give them back. I'm not saying that is all what was said, word for word, but that was the impression I came away from Landsmeet with, the first time, which was a while ago. I wasn't quite paraphrasing. I could have done a better job tying my post together with saying "I can see why Alistair is acting like a bat**** crazy loon because..." before hand, but I didn't. Oh well.

As for the rest, the part where you put words in my mouth. Nah, you can have all that to yourself. Maybe you dream of such things, but for me, he's just pixels. Sorry.

As we come to find out later, in the Grey Warden business discussion, there really is a compelling reason to spare Loghain.  In this, Alistair still gets to check out of his life.  Despite what the PC may think, Alistair's ultimate happy ending is "Alistair dies".  He no longer has to feel, and he doesn't have to be King.  Hence the running off and becoming a drunk.  He no longer has to feel, or take responsibility.  Once Loghain is cowed, he is stripped of all titles, which would include General.  Allowing him to keep these titles would be rewarding him for his treason.  There is no doubt that he commited treason in my mind.  At the very least, despite what he says in the first Denerim cut scene, he did shirk his duty to the throne.

Alistair states at Flemeth's hut that Loghain must be brought to justice.  When his fate isn't to die, he becomes the 10 year old boy at the Chantry again, only now, instead of Eamon being the brunt, it's the PC specifically, and all of Ferelden he takes it out on.  Yeah, that's really the guy I want on the throne.  If Loghain does die, and the female PC has, or had a romance with him, the only way to stop him from killing himself on the Archdemon is to leave him at the gate.  I will once again call this how I see it, cowardly.  Rather than face up to his responsibilities to Ferelden, and have to deal with one more death, which can't possibly affect him as much as Duncan, all things considered, he will take the killing blow, knowing his life is over.  This isn't to be a hero, this is to escape from a life that is being "forced" on him.

[Xandurpein]

ejoslin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

Yes alistair can eventually turn out to be a decent King, but not on his own. His low self-esteem cripples him as a leader. It's up to the player to rebuild his self. Without the player to patch up his ego, he is mo leader at all.

In no circumstance is Alistair ruling on his own; someone is always ruling through him, be it Anora, Eamon, or the PC.

I suppose that could be part of his attraction to some women. After all he looks good, has a nice voice and will absolutly let the female PC run the whole Kingdom as she wants, consort or not, without complaints...

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

To be more precise he actually is capable, but he has horrible self-esteem which undermines him through most of the game. He's afraid to take command but he can make a good commander -- proof in the pudding being the hardened Alistair makes a very good king. That's because he's no longer scared and trusts in his own ability for a change. And let's be honest, out-of-game it's also so the player can feel like the big hero and call the shots rather than be forced to do as told all the time as if it was some kind of "now bring me another 10 rat tails" MMO.

If the player's character wasn't there, Alistair being the only remaining Grey Warden would very likely still try to carry on on his own. To what effect only his maker/writer can tell for sure.

Yes alistair can eventually turn out to be a decent King, but not on his own. His low self-esteem cripples him as a leader. It's up to the player to rebuild his self. Without the player to patch up his ego, he is mo leader at all.

In no circumstance is Alistair ruling on his own; someone is always ruling through him, be it Anora, Eamon, or the PC.

I suppose that could be part of his attraction to some women. After all he looks good, has a nice voice and will absolutly let the female PC run the whole Kingdom as she wants, consort or not, without complaints...

You're a better, more respected ruler if you never romance Alistair, however.  The people view you very differently whether you're the beloved bride, or the ruler and savior of them.