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[Apophis2412]

robertthebard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Replay Ostagar and listen to Duncan. Read and/or listen closely. That will tell you what is expected of true Grey Wardens. Listen to the oath again. Alistair doesn't grasp it at all, even though he speaks it. My PC gets told that she has to put the slaughter of her whole house on the back-burner because the blight is what is important. Duncan tells her it is 'far' more important than the butchering of her family, lover, and friends/servants. You may hear something different, but that's how I understand what is repeated over and over. We do whatever it takes. No disclaimers, or restrictions, or exceptions.

There is no personal line in the Grey Wardens. Blood magic is allowed, murder is allowed, everything is allowed as long as it wipes out the archdemon. Alistair forsook having 'personal lines' when he joined. If Jory has to die, so does Alistair. No two sets of rules should apply.

There is no personal line in the GW's???
Nonsense. There's allways a personal line.

Duncan can say whatever he wants, his words and thoughts are not gospel, nor is he the perfect representative of all Grey Wardens everywhere.

How many Grey Wardens do you know from anywhere?  Where are you drawing this information that Duncan isn't the quintessential Grey Warden?  Is there some lore I missed some where?  In the MMO genre they say "screenshot or it didn't happen".  I'm going to ask for some documentation, official documentation, that Duncan isn't typical for a Grey Warden.  I know I can already think of two Wardens that were beneath Alistair, according to his scale.  the sad part is, he turns over leadership to one of them.  However, provide me with some links to something from a writer that says that Duncan was "bottom of the barrel", or at least more foul than any of the other Grey Wardens.

Alistair himself remarks during Ostagar that theGrey Wardens must do whatever it takes, even it that means destroying villages.
Another example of a "Duncanesque" would be Riordan. Or Avernus and Sophia Dryden if you take it to the extremes.

[jmp0505]

Loghain's actions at Ostagar have made him, in my games, is irredeemable. He betrayed King and Country, while all the while claiming to only have Ferelden's interests at heart. That is entirely dishonorable.

I think Alistair feeling utterly betrayed if you allow Loghain to live and join the Gray Warden's is both in character (at least as his character developed in my game) and understandable. Some of his conversation options, you can see that his search for a father figure (both Eamon and Duncan) is a real central part of who he is. So his reaction doesn't seem that surprising to me. I do wish they had not had him just quit the field entirely - that does seem out of character. (I guess unless you get him and Anora hooked up, which is not an option I have tried yet.) Let his approval drop hugely, let him dump you if you've been in a romance - all understandable, but don't have him running off in a strop. That was a cop out, story wise.

I usually just let Alistair, if he has been my main warrior, battle Loghain one on one, avoiding the whole question entirely.  It's quite satisfactory to let him avenge your (and his) Gray Warden brethren without interference.

Modifié par jmp0505, 28 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

But in order for the whole thing to come together a leader is needed, not just warriors. Apparently the PC is so charismatic and such a strong leader that even as an elf, humans who barely know her are willing to follow her.

Well, what most of them is willing to follow is ancient Grey Warden treaties, no matter who owns them. Without them all that supposed charisma of the  player's character isn't even good enough to be allowed into Orzammar

[ejoslin]

You need to let Loghain live at least once and spend some time talking to him. After you get him to open up (not difficult to get enormous approval ratings from him), you at least understand why he did what he did.

[Apophis2412]

jmp0505 wrote...

Loghain's actions at Ostagar have made him, in my games, is irredeemable. He betrayed King and Country, while all the while claiming to only have Ferelden's interests at heart. That is entirely dishonorable.

I think Alistair feeling utterly betrayed if you allow Loghain to live and join the Gray Warden's is both in character (at least as his character developed in my game) and understandable. Some of his conversation options, you can see that his search for a father figure (both Eamon and Duncan) is a real central part of who he is. So his reaction doesn't seem that surprising to me. I do wish they had not had him just quit the field entirely - that does seem out of character. (I guess unless you get him and Anora hooked up, which is not an option I have tried yet.) Let his approval drop hugely, let him dump you if you've been in a romance - all understandable, but don't have him running off in a strop. That was a cop out, story wise.

I usually just let Alistair, if he has been my main warrior, battle Loghain one on one, avoiding the whole question entirely.  It's quite satisfactory to let him avenge your (and his) Gray Warden brethren without interference.

Redemption, honor, betrayal and vengeance.. I found these four words in your post, but what do these matter to a Grey Warden?

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

You need to let Loghain live at least once and spend some time talking to him. After you get him to open up (not difficult to get enormous approval ratings from him), you at least understand why he did what he did.

I've read transcripts, which is as close as I'm going to get, and no, I don't buy it.

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

But in order for the whole thing to come together a leader is needed, not just warriors. Apparently the PC is so charismatic and such a strong leader that even as an elf, humans who barely know her are willing to follow her.

Well, what most of them is willing to follow is ancient Grey Warden treaties, no matter who owns them. Without them all that supposed charisma of the  player's character isn't even good enough to be allowed into Orzammar

I doubt that's enough.  Werewolves and Branka were not bound by those treaties.  

Edit: Nor were templars.  It was the strength of the PC that had people gathering fully behind her.  I do doubt that Alistair would have been able to gain the same support; he most likely would have gone to Radcliff, and either got the Urn and followed Arl Eamon, or followed what Bann Teagan advised (not sure which) without the PC.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You need to let Loghain live at least once and spend some time talking to him. After you get him to open up (not difficult to get enormous approval ratings from him), you at least understand why he did what he did.

I've read transcripts, which is as close as I'm going to get, and no, I don't buy it.

Fair enough.  He only lived once in my games, and that was to get the achievements, but what he had to say was very enlightening.  He wasn't evil; he truly thought he was doing what was best and regretted it, very much.

[Apophis2412]

Apophis2412 wrote...

jmp0505 wrote...

Loghain's actions at Ostagar have made him, in my games, is irredeemable. He betrayed King and Country, while all the while claiming to only have Ferelden's interests at heart. That is entirely dishonorable.

I think Alistair feeling utterly betrayed if you allow Loghain to live and join the Gray Warden's is both in character (at least as his character developed in my game) and understandable. Some of his conversation options, you can see that his search for a father figure (both Eamon and Duncan) is a real central part of who he is. So his reaction doesn't seem that surprising to me. I do wish they had not had him just quit the field entirely - that does seem out of character. (I guess unless you get him and Anora hooked up, which is not an option I have tried yet.) Let his approval drop hugely, let him dump you if you've been in a romance - all understandable, but don't have him running off in a strop. That was a cop out, story wise.

I usually just let Alistair, if he has been my main warrior, battle Loghain one on one, avoiding the whole question entirely.  It's quite satisfactory to let him avenge your (and his) Gray Warden brethren without interference.

Redemption, honor, betrayal and vengeance.. I found these four words in your post, but what do these matter to a Grey Warden?

If it weren't for the Blight and the death of the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, Loghain's betrayal, Howe's murder of the Cousland family, the werewolf curse, the poisoning of Eamon and the raping of the elven women by Vaughn would have been irrelevant or atleast a very low priority for the GW.

[robertthebard]

jmp0505 wrote...

Loghain's actions at Ostagar have made him, in my games, is irredeemable. He betrayed King and Country, while all the while claiming to only have Ferelden's interests at heart. That is entirely dishonorable.

I think Alistair feeling utterly betrayed if you allow Loghain to live and join the Gray Warden's is both in character (at least as his character developed in my game) and understandable. Some of his conversation options, you can see that his search for a father figure (both Eamon and Duncan) is a real central part of who he is. So his reaction doesn't seem that surprising to me. I do wish they had not had him just quit the field entirely - that does seem out of character. (I guess unless you get him and Anora hooked up, which is not an option I have tried yet.) Let his approval drop hugely, let him dump you if you've been in a romance - all understandable, but don't have him running off in a strop. That was a cop out, story wise.

I usually just let Alistair, if he has been my main warrior, battle Loghain one on one, avoiding the whole question entirely.  It's quite satisfactory to let him avenge your (and his) Gray Warden brethren without interference.

So we are to be held accountable for his emotional instabilities?  The fact that this:

that his search for a father figure (both Eamon and Duncan) is a real central part of who he is

suggests more that he has severe emotional disorders than that he needs to be King, and responsible for the lives of every man woman and child in Ferelden.

Yes, he knows who his father was, and he's a bastard.  Boo hoo.  I find it sad that in his eyes, his loss of Duncan is more severe than the Human Noble PC watching their father bleed out due to Howe's treachery while Duncan blackmails him into agreeing to making you a Warden.  Are these the bretheren you're referring to?  Because prior to Riordin in Howe's dungeon, the only other Grey Wardens I have met are Duncan and Alistair.  From the Human Noble perspective, both of those are kind of weak.  Looking at the recruits that go to your Joining, a coward of a knight in service to, surprise, Arl Eamon, and Daveth, who was conscripted to get away from something distasteful, am I to say that these are the shining examples of what it is to be a Grey Warden?  Duncan recruited them as well.

If I'd spent years as a Grey Warden, I might feel a little something for them.  I was a Grey Warden for one day.  It's very likely that I didn't even want to be a Grey Warden.  The last Blight was 400 years ago, and the Grey Wardens aren't really remembered in Ferelden as saviors, they are remembered, courtesy of Sophia Dryden, as traitors to the crown.  It's funny to note in Avernus' discussion of what happened that the Couslands were instrumental in getting their revolt curbed.  Maric has only recently allowed them back into Ferelden.  So, with that history hanging over my PC's head as a Noble, I'm supposed to accept that I'm to have remorse for all the Grey Wardens that died, fighting darkspawn?  I am motivated as a loyal citizen of Ferelden to be outraged by the loss of the King.  The fact that the King's own half brother is more worried about a member of an organization that until very recently was illegal in Ferelden than his own half brother is disturbing to me, not a reason to grant him the boon of Loghain's death, nor is it a reason to put him on the throne.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

I doubt that's enough.  Werewolves and Branka were not bound by those treaties. 

But it's not Branka who supplies you the army, it's Bhelen/Harrowmont who do it because of the treaties. (even when you get the golems they're still supplied by the dwarf king, as implied by Bhelen eventually some years later running into problems with Branka no longer willing to provide the golems to him exclusively)

The werewolves are about the only one without the previous obligation, yes.

Edit: Nor were templars.

The templars pretty much go "oh well the Circle is destroyed, nothing left to do might as well fight the Blight." There's no persuade check or anything with them, so Alistair would be just as likely to pass it. Maybe even better given he's got some templar training himself.

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I doubt that's enough.  Werewolves and Branka were not bound by those treaties. 

But it's not Branka who supplies you the army, it's Bhelen/Harrowmont who do it because of the treaties. (even when you get the golems they're still supplied by the dwarf king, as implied by Bhelen eventually some years later running into problems with Branka no longer willing to provide the golems to him exclusively)

The werewolves are about the only one without the previous obligation, yes.

Edit: Nor were templars.

The templars pretty much go "oh well the Circle is destroyed, nothing left to do might as well fight the Blight." There's no persuade check or anything with them, so Alistair would be just as likely to pass it. Maybe even better given he's got some templar training himself.

Branka will supply you with golems.  The Templars are not obligated to help you at all.  As far as "Brotherhood of Templars" go, Alistair is just another Grey Warden, however, he would have never gotten out of the Fade on his own.  "Don't tell anyone how easily I was fooled"...

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

however, he would have never gotten out of the Fade on his own.  "Don't tell anyone how easily I was fooled"...

lol. This is a very good point

[Sialater]

Even Wynne was fooled, though.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Even Wynne was fooled, though.

Morrigan and Sten weren't.  But they didn't mind being stuck in there anyway.

[Sialater]

Probably because the stupid Fade demon tried to be a June Cleaver Flemeth. Sten got to visit his buddies that had died and whom he missed, but he was aware of it.



Wonder what Oghren's nightmare is?

[robertthebard]

Sialater wrote...

Even Wynne was fooled, though.

I talked to Wynne to snap her out of it.  I had to talk to Goldanna/demon to get Alistair out of it.  If I hadn't done that, Alistair would still be there.  Do you see any way that he would have gotten himself out of that illusion?  He liked it, it was comfortable, and he didn't have to be King.

[Original182]

Sialater wrote...

Probably because the stupid Fade demon tried to be a June Cleaver Flemeth. Sten got to visit his buddies that had died and whom he missed, but he was aware of it.

Wonder what Oghren's nightmare is?

Oghren's nightmare was him being back in the bar in Orzammar, with everyone making fun of him. This is probably referring to the time when he was drunk for years and losing respect with everyone.
You then encourage him to not take it, and fight back. Wasn't possible back in Orzammar because the guards would arrest him. So I think his nightmare has some meaning, and gives him some closure.

Ah and yes, more anti-Alistair zealots going at it! 

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Probably because the stupid Fade demon tried to be a June Cleaver Flemeth. Sten got to visit his buddies that had died and whom he missed, but he was aware of it.

Wonder what Oghren's nightmare is?

He's being mocked by everyone in Tapsters.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually, you had to snap them all out of their nightmares. Wynne and Morrigan should be able to snap themselves out. The only reason I can think of is that they were asleep before they entered the Fade. Mages who enter the Fade conscious remain that way. I was surprise that your character is not locked into a nightmare that he/she must break out of. Like re-enacting Howe's attack. If you are unable to break out your journey ends.

[Lord Abrasion]

robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Even Wynne was fooled, though.

I talked to Wynne to snap her out of it.  I had to talk to Goldanna/demon to get Alistair out of it.  If I hadn't done that, Alistair would still be there.  Do you see any way that he would have gotten himself out of that illusion?  He liked it, it was comfortable, and he didn't have to be King.

I've always talked to Alistair and managed to snap him out of it that way. No persuade checks or anything of the kind have ever been required. Never have I addressed any of the demons directly in any of those nightmares.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Probably because the stupid Fade demon tried to be a June Cleaver Flemeth. Sten got to visit his buddies that had died and whom he missed, but he was aware of it.

Wonder what Oghren's nightmare is?

Oghren's nightmare was him being back in the bar in Orzammar, with everyone making fun of him. This is probably referring to the time when he was drunk for years and losing respect with everyone.
You then encourage him to not take it, and fight back. Wasn't possible back in Orzammar because the guards would arrest him. So I think his nightmare has some meaning, and gives him some closure.

Ah and yes, more anti-Alistair zealots going at it! 

Firstly, lol at June Cleaver Flemeth, but some people here are probably too young to know what that means.

Then, tell me in all honesty if you believe Alistair would have escaped from the Fade on his own.

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Probably because the stupid Fade demon tried to be a June Cleaver Flemeth. Sten got to visit his buddies that had died and whom he missed, but he was aware of it.

Wonder what Oghren's nightmare is?

Oghren's nightmare was him being back in the bar in Orzammar, with everyone making fun of him. This is probably referring to the time when he was drunk for years and losing respect with everyone.
You then encourage him to not take it, and fight back. Wasn't possible back in Orzammar because the guards would arrest him. So I think his nightmare has some meaning, and gives him some closure.

Ah and yes, more anti-Alistair zealots going at it! 

Firstly, lol at June Cleaver Flemeth, but some people here are probably too young to know what that means.

Then, tell me in all honesty if you believe Alistair would have escaped from the Fade on his own.

Can't you just picture that dragon in an apron and pearls and a Bob Mackie dress?


Uh... no one would have escaped from the Fade on their own.  That's why you HAVE to rescue them.  If Morrigan knew it was a dream and knew how to get out, why wasn't she running about gathering shapeshifting forms on her own?  Didn't it occur to her to FIGHT her mother?  Oh, that's right.  That's what the PC's there for. 

And I didn't have to do much persuading to Alistair either.  

[kormesios]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you don't mention the treaties, he will. If you try to quit, he will not.
The PC is the party leader, but to think Alistair is nothing but a sword arm and useless without you is the biggest example of self-ego stroking I've ever seen.
He's capable and determined enough. I have 0 doubt he would be fully capable of raising the armioes without the PC, or with him as the leader and hte PC as companion...but we wouldn't have much of a game then, now would we?

Yes, in my first playthrough my PC was ready to quit.  Alistair refused to give up, and his determination and enthusiasm were catching.  He also takes on leadership of your first two expeditions (the Kocarri wilds and the tower), doing well enough at keeping Jory focused.  And he is also willing, quite sincerely, to lay down his life to repay you for your service, and/or save Ferelden.

Really, despite the framing, many criticisms seem to boil down to the fact that he is *not* a blind puppet, or doesn't leave the second he disagrees with you.  He disagrees with you, but continues to serve by following your lead until he thinks you've made a horrible decision (out of the blue, no less) and then draws a line.

Contrast this with Sten, who will let himself be completely cowed into complete obedience, despite being a much more experienced warrior with no nominal duty to stop the blight.  Yet no one complains Sten is a 'wimp' . . .

Xandurpein wrote...
Actually he is not that capable and
determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens
than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that
he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader.

I've personally turned down projects that I could have run because I felt there was a more qualified person at hand to take charge.  It's not an ego problem, it's an assessment of the situation.

If you want a more dramatic example, John Adams was offered the opportunity to write the Declaration of Independence.  He was older and more experienced than Jefferson, and very well endowed in the self-confidence department, and still insisted (correctly) that Jefferson was better suited for the task.  Didn't stop he and Jefferson from running against each other for president in bitter campaigns.  Twice.

Alistair made a decision about who would be the better leader in the specific situation you faced.  He was right.  That means he had good judgment, not that he was a coward or a wimp or incapable of leading in other situations.

That he doesn't have the best temperament for a military leader, no doubt.  That's a more narrow issue.

[robertthebard]

Sialater wrote...

Can't you just picture that dragon in an apron and pearls and a Bob Mackie dress?


Uh... no one would have escaped from the Fade on their own.  That's why you HAVE to rescue them.  If Morrigan knew it was a dream and knew how to get out, why wasn't she running about gathering shapeshifting forms on her own?  Didn't it occur to her to FIGHT her mother?  Oh, that's right.  That's what the PC's there for. 

And I didn't have to do much persuading to Alistair either.  

Actually, I couldn't, until you mentioned it, and now I can't stop seeing it.