353 réponses à ce sujet

[LynxAQ]

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.



But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...



Stay Tuned!!!

[robertthebard]

None, we put a lid on that to keep 'em all in there. We used Duncan posters as bait to get 'em to go in too.

[AtreiyaN7]

No, I don't find Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet to be character-breaking. As I've said before (basically), Alistair outright hates Loghain, and his seemingly irrational reaction is the result of his being angry at the very idea that Loghain would be allowed to join the Grey Wardens. Now of course Grey Wardens are supposed to be pragmatic and accept anyone into their ranks, but being a Grey Warden doesn't mean you stop being human - irrational anger and/or hate is quite a human reaction in my opinion.

I think that the decision to allow Loghain to join makes Alistair snap. I mean, if you thought someone was war criminal/traitor/murderer (who killed your father figure AND half-brother, plus a bunch of Grey Wardens), would you so easily be able to accept it and turn the other cheek? If you play a human noble, would you welcome Arl Howe into the Grey Wardens if that choice were presented to you? You know, given that he murdered your family & tried to kill you, etc. I think you might flip out and leave the Wardens in disgust too if asked to put YOUR feelings aside like Alistair's being asked to do.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:37 .

[robertthebard]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

No, I don't find Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet to be character-breaking. As I've said before (basically), Alistair outright hates Loghain, and his seemingly irrational reaction is the result of his being angry at the very idea that Loghain would be allowed to join the Grey Wardens. Now of course Grey Wardens are supposed to be pragmatic and accept anyone into their ranks, but being a Grey Warden doesn't mean you stop being human - irrational anger and/or hate is quite a human reaction in my opinion.

I think that the decision to allow Loghain to join makes Alistair snap. I mean, if you thought someone was war criminal/traitor/murderer (who killed your father figure AND half-brother, plus a bunch of Grey Wardens), would you so easily be able to accept it and turn the other cheek? If you play a human noble, would you welcome Arl Howe into the Grey Wardens if that choice were presented to you? You know, given that he murdered your family & tried to kill you, etc. I think you might flip out and leave the Wardens in disgust too if asked to put YOUR feelings aside like Alistair's being asked to do.

Arl Howe killed my family, not some figure that I decided to adopt as a father figure.  Alistair did not walk into his brother's room and find his nephew dead on the floor.  Please do not try to compare the two.  That said, yes.  As a Cousland, who's duty is first and foremost to Ferelden, I would.  I would be angry, and I would put as much distance between him and myself as I could, and I would be sure to be the one to kill the Archdemon to escape from how dirty I would feel, but I would.

It's interesting to note that while my father was bleeding out on the floor, Alistair's father figure was blackmailing him into allowing me to become a Grey Warden.  I'll save your offspring, but it's going to cost you.  If the Grey Wardens are willing to stoop to that to gain a recruit, and this isn't some fairy tale about how saintly the Wardens are from Alistair, but my actual experience as a human noble, then who am I to judge that we shouldn't take Howe, if the only experienced Grey Warden in Ferelden thought he was going to be a worthwhile addition.  For all of Howe's manipulation of circumstance, however, he's not that great a warrior.  The likely hood of anyone suggesting it is so far remote as to be impossible.  Besides, this point has already been debated.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

The other thing to remember is, Howe wouldn't accept it, all he craved about was power, whereas Loghain would especially if he knew it would save Ferelden.



To some extent you could say Loghain is the epitomy of the Grey Warden motto.



In war, victory - He helped overthrow the Orlesians and ensured they were pushed out and kept out of Ferelden

In peace, vigilance - Ok so he got a bit paranoid but he was always vigilant of any potential attempts for them to reclaim what the Orlesians had lost.

In death, sacrifice - He was just like his dad, he would sacrifice himself for Ferelden, so having him join the group and make that sacrifice to some extent is the perfect choice in hindsight

[kormesios]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
To some extent you could say Loghain is the epitomy of the Grey Warden motto.

And, to a greater extent, you could say he's the antithesis of it.

In war, victory - He helped overthrow the Orlesians and ensured they were pushed out and kept out of Ferelden

Got himself mired in an unnecessary and unwinnable civil war.  Ultimately lost to a Grey Warden recruit who started with no resources and no army.

In peace, vigilance - Ok so he got a bit paranoid but he was always vigilant of any potential attempts for them to reclaim what the Orlesians had lost.

And was so obsessed by his internal demons that he missed the real threat, the Darkspawn, out in the real world, who marched over the southern province after he withdrew his army, even reaching the capital.

In death, sacrifice - He was just like his dad, he would sacrifice himself for Ferelden, so having him join the group and make that sacrifice to some extent is the perfect choice in hindsight

Well, in my games he's always been executed after being exposed as a traitor, so he never had that 'sacrifice' opportunity. :innocent:  But Ferelden doesn't seem short on people willing to do so, happily (one of my PC's, Alistair, Riordan and Loghain are all willing to step up.)

Modifié par kormesios, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[Series5Ranger]

Endurium wrote...

He's not my favorite guy, for sure. In the game I just finished I did the right thing by bringing Loghain in to redeem himself. Meanwhile Anora had Alistair executed. Ah, satisfaction. (Please don't hate me ladies.)

Man I almost went there on my Playthrough, I did spare Loghain because I had promised Anora I would, and all of a sudden Alistair has to get a crybaby moment. Yes Anora shouldn't of had the option to kill him cause I seriously wanted to.

[Wrathra]

double post.

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[Wrathra]

robertthebard wrote...

Arl Howe killed my family, not some figure that I decided to adopt as a father figure.  Alistair did not walk into his brother's room and find his nephew dead on the floor.  Please do not try to compare the two.  That said, yes.  As a Cousland, who's duty is first and foremost to Ferelden, I would.  I would be angry, and I would put as much distance between him and myself as I could, and I would be sure to be the one to kill the Archdemon to escape from how dirty I would feel, but I would.

It's interesting to note that while my father was bleeding out on the floor, Alistair's father figure was blackmailing him into allowing me to become a Grey Warden.  I'll save your offspring, but it's going to cost you.  If the Grey Wardens are willing to stoop to that to gain a recruit, and this isn't some fairy tale about how saintly the Wardens are from Alistair, but my actual experience as a human noble, then who am I to judge that we shouldn't take Howe, if the only experienced Grey Warden in Ferelden thought he was going to be a worthwhile addition.  For all of Howe's manipulation of circumstance, however, he's not that great a warrior.  The likely hood of anyone suggesting it is so far remote as to be impossible.  Besides, this point has already been debated.

You're right. Howe killed your family (and my noble's as well).

This point seems to be ignored by alot of people though - Alistair considered Duncan and the wardens his family. Whether you think that is ridiculous or I think it is ridiculous is irrelevent.  Loghain was responsible for the death of HIS family.  His loss and grief could be just as real as my own.

Alistair's "tantrum" when you or I spare Loghain is completely understandable.  He acted out of anger, after he was betrayed by someone he trusted and possibly loved (you/me/the PC/whoever), which is human.  Have you never, ever, EVER done something out of anger that you later regretted?  (I'm not directing this at you specifically, robert, but people saying Alistair is a wimp/whiny/out of character/traitor/etc  ) I know I have. 

And considering how forthright Duncan had been - and I consider Duncan to be a deplorable character - I had no reason to take a perfect stranger's word that "We need Loghain for a mysterious reason I don't feel like sharing right now" (warden or not) over someone that I had been travelling with for months, whom I had a relationship with - be it a friendship or something more.  I had absolutely no reason to trust Riordan.  Hell, I got more info about the wardens from Alistair.  Duncan didn't tell me crap, he just dragged me off.

Alistair lopped Loghain's head off at the Landsmeet, with my blessing.  I'd hand him the damned sword.

edit: for clarification

Modifié par Wrathra, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:37 .

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Arl Howe killed my family, not some figure that I decided to adopt as a father figure.  Alistair did not walk into his brother's room and find his nephew dead on the floor.  Please do not try to compare the two.

I don't think anyone is really in position to talk authoritatively about possible strength of another person't emotional attachment, let alone try to make comparisons like this. You don't know how Alistair feels, only how your character feels. To declare he can't possibly feel as strong about someone he doesn't have blood bond with as your character does about their own family is incredibly arrogant. It's also a slap in the face of any person who chooses to adopt another.

Just don't do it.

[jmp0505]

Apophis2412 wrote...


Redemption, honor, betrayal and vengeance.. I found these four words in your post, but what do these matter to a Grey Warden?

Why wouldn't they matter to a Gray Warden?  Yes, yes, yes... anything to justify their goal... in theory. In practice, human behavior and emotions always factor in.  Always.  The entire party, except for maybe Wynne all have their quirks, hang-ups and agendas.  Including the player character, depending on how you role-play.

My roleplay, in this single player game- Loghain's actions are too difficult to just let go for all of my characters thus far, and that is regardless of Alistair's wants or wishes through out the game, as it happens.  I will eventually play through and let Loghain join the fun at the end, if for nothing else, to get the silly achievement block colored in.  But from a story telling perspective  - my storytelling perspective - , mind you...  meh.  He went too far.  I understand and accept Alistair or even Anora, better than I can Loghain.

And again, as I said in my original post, I do wish they had not had Alistair run off after throwing a hissy fit though - that does break the character for me.  They could have done things to have him massively disapprove, dump a romantic interest, whatever, but quitting in a huff was a poor choice on Bioware's part, when they had done a pretty freaking stellar job on the character to that point.

Modifié par jmp0505, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
Actually he is not that capable and determined. That is the whole point. He is older in the Grey Wardens than you, so by rights he should be the leader. The fact that he abdicates it all to you proves that he really isn't much of a leader. If he was all you make him out he would be the leader and, as you point out it wouldn't be much of a game. The developers even said that originally they envisioned Alistair as a tougher Grey Warden veteran, but they dropped it because then it wouldn't make sense for him not to take charge and then it would ruin the game. The game pretty much demands that he is a follower and not a leader. 

You're equating the capabiltiy with desire. Being a capable leader when required and wanting to be one are two different things. Alistair is quite capable of leading (didn't he lead a squad of templars before? ), as king he proves he has it in him. He doesn't want to lead, and that's why he LET'S you do it.
He is determined, try talking with him and picking up all the "we're lsot, it's hopeless" options. He will not quit.
Him abdicating the leadership doesnt  prove anything really.

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

No if the PC Warden hadn't have been there, he probably would be dead, either killed by the Ogre in the Tower of Ishal or killed by Morrigan and/or Flemeth after he continued to act like a snivelling cry baby that he was acting like when you go out to talk to Flemeth.

Ok, maybe they would have talked some sense in to him to escort him out of the wilds, he probably would have told Morrigan to get lost at Lothering and made his way to Redcliffe where he then would've ended up dead along with the rest of the Redcliffe villagers.

Yes, because Alistiar CLEARLY wouldn't take any companions himself.
So many baseless assumptions.

As far as Alistair surviving? Who knows. But in order for the whole thing to come together a leader is needed, not just warriors. Apparently the PC is so charismatic and such a strong leader that even as an elf, humans who barely know her are willing to follow her. And it would take a leader that strong to get it all together, and somehow I doubt that Alistair is that leader.

NPC's follow the PC because thegame tells them so. Games like this are filled wiht ego-boosting, which is something I hate when it's overdone. You raise a good point. Do you really think the armies of Ferelden will follow an elf general?
But they have to. Cause he's the PC and he's so AWESOME. and everybody else is nothing compared to his wonderfull glory. He/she is a monster in baed, a warrior wihtout equal, a leader of the ages, a impsing figure who cna sweetalk anyone into anything. I hate it when the games ignore others that contributed.

When Sten get's back and mentions he only met one who is worthyon his travles. ONE. the PC naturally. I guess, Wynne, Morri, Leli, Al, Zev, Oggy, Shale - they're all window dressing, unworthy of anyone's attention. The only one worthy of praise is the PC...naturally. ... where's a smoking mad smiley when you need one?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LynxAQ wrote...

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.

But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...

Stay Tuned!!!

Hehe...funny that you should mention "fanatics" when it's you and robertthebeard that can't go on two seconds withot  "I have anthing out of Alistairs mouth"...."I so enjoyed executing Alistair"..."we need an option to kil lhim sooner", comments....every...two...seconds. Everywhere you can squeeze it.
You're burning hate is fascinating.

[Sabriana]

jmp0505 wrote...

<snip>

And again, as I said in my original post, I do wish they had not had Alistair run off after throwing a hissy fit though - that does break the character for me.  They could have done things to have him massively disapprove, dump a romantic interest, whatever, but quitting in a huff was a poor choice on Bioware's part, when they had done a pretty freaking stellar job on the character to that point.

Yes, I agree. After my first playthrough and my severe disappointment in the Alistair character I usually just dump him into camp as soon as I can. That's my choice to make, and I'm making it. However, in my eyes Alistair betrays Ferelden in an even worse way than Loghain in his paranoia does. He runs away knowing perfectly well that GW are all that stand between the darkspawn and the people. Ferelden faces total and utter destruction, and he runs off and hides.

Whether the joining is blood-magic or not is debatable. There is no mention anywhere that the magic, lyrium, having mages involved, etc is simply to preserve the blood or not. In my eyes it is blood magic, it is dark magic at that. However, we also hear that the Grey Wardens do not forbid blood magic. Anything it takes to beat the blight, after all.

In the final battle I see familiar faces fighting for Ferelden all over the place, with one notable exception. The GW who worshipped the ground Duncan walked on for reasons entirely in his head. I've never had the feeling that Duncan felt anything more for Alistair than for Daveth, the PC, or even Jory.

This is not the time for pschological couch games. He is a Grey Warden and the welfare of the whole county is at stake. He swore to never foreswear his duty in  his oath, yet he does. Like I said numerous times: Yes, be upset to the point of losing all respect, love, friendship for the PC. Leave the group, I can understand that having to fight beside Loghain is utterly repulsive. But be there when it counts. Be there when you fight the entity that is responsible for the deaths of Duncan, other GWs, your half-brother, and countless.

Yes, Loghain quit the battle, but it is definitely not a given that he and his men could've prevented the massacre. The only given thing is that the darkspawn attacked. Alistair  has seen first hand the devastation those creature can wreak, no one knows better than him and the PC. Yet, he walks away, no make that, stomps off in a huff.

[seraphymon]

Sorry but i totally disagree. Swearing oaths, and assuming this and that doesnt quite cut it. Such as him storming off but how do we know what he does?



Also one can swear 2 oaths in his life, but when a choice has to be made which is right.



That all aside. the choice is the PC in turn mine. Alistair aside, what loghain did was unforgiveable. Even when the majority of the nobles are against him he refuses to give up power, at this point how would one know he wouldnt backstab us again? If it were up to me being locked up forever is a much harsher punishment then a quick, i feel the same in RL too. Do whatever it takes to stop the blight, but not be blinded by it. If i was alistaiir i woulda stormed off as well. A person can only take soo much, grey warden or no, so in a sense it only hurts a person when they have emotions, I believe anyone woulda done the same except for maybe a tranquil.

[robertthebard]

Wrathra wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Arl Howe killed my family, not some figure that I decided to adopt as a father figure.  Alistair did not walk into his brother's room and find his nephew dead on the floor.  Please do not try to compare the two.  That said, yes.  As a Cousland, who's duty is first and foremost to Ferelden, I would.  I would be angry, and I would put as much distance between him and myself as I could, and I would be sure to be the one to kill the Archdemon to escape from how dirty I would feel, but I would.

It's interesting to note that while my father was bleeding out on the floor, Alistair's father figure was blackmailing him into allowing me to become a Grey Warden.  I'll save your offspring, but it's going to cost you.  If the Grey Wardens are willing to stoop to that to gain a recruit, and this isn't some fairy tale about how saintly the Wardens are from Alistair, but my actual experience as a human noble, then who am I to judge that we shouldn't take Howe, if the only experienced Grey Warden in Ferelden thought he was going to be a worthwhile addition.  For all of Howe's manipulation of circumstance, however, he's not that great a warrior.  The likely hood of anyone suggesting it is so far remote as to be impossible.  Besides, this point has already been debated.

You're right. Howe killed your family (and my noble's as well).

This point seems to be ignored by alot of people though - Alistair considered Duncan and the wardens his family. Whether you think that is ridiculous or I think it is ridiculous is irrelevent.  Loghain was responsible for the death of HIS family.  His loss and grief could be just as real as my own.

Alistair's "tantrum" when you or I spare Loghain is completely understandable.  He acted out of anger, after he was betrayed by someone he trusted and possibly loved (you/me/the PC/whoever), which is human.  Have you never, ever, EVER done something out of anger that you later regretted?  (I'm not directing this at you specifically, robert, but people saying Alistair is a wimp/whiny/out of character/traitor/etc  ) I know I have. 

And considering how forthright Duncan had been - and I consider Duncan to be a deplorable character - I had no reason to take a perfect stranger's word that "We need Loghain for a mysterious reason I don't feel like sharing right now" (warden or not) over someone that I had been travelling with for months, whom I had a relationship with - be it a friendship or something more.  I had absolutely no reason to trust Riordan.  Hell, I got more info about the wardens from Alistair.  Duncan didn't tell me crap, he just dragged me off.

Alistair lopped Loghain's head off at the Landsmeet, with my blessing.  I'd hand him the damned sword.

edit: for clarification

If you do something that you later regret, then the action you took was wrong.  Otherwise you wouldn't regret it.  It may not be wrong in society's view, or it may be, depends on what you did, but if you personally regret it, then it was wrong in your eyes.  The only reason Alistair goes to get drunk, where he can, isn't because he regrets what he did, unless we postulate that what he feels he did wrong was to be a follower, instead of leader, and allowed the PC to lead for the whole game.  There is nothing in the epilog to suggest otherwise, other than claiming he was once a Warden.  Which is amusing in and of itself.  The "...duty that cannot be forsworn" from the Joining ritual means absolutely nothing.  Afterall, it can be forsworn simply because you didn't get to kill one man.

Regarding Alistair's emotional state regarding Duncan's death, and the comparison to cheapening adoption, people adopt children because they want to love the children.  If they are successful at it, the children will feel loved, and will reciprocate that love.  Duncan did not recruit Alistair to be his daddy.  As Alistair explains, Duncan recruited Alistair because his Templar abilities would be useful against darkspawn magic.  This whole adoption theory is a strawman.  Now, if Duncan had adopted Alistair instead of Alistair being sent to the Chantry, we might have something to discuss.  Duncan recruited a grown man into the Wardens, and that grown man assigned emotional attachments that, in any other circumstance, would be viewed as unhealthy.  You see, I don't see giving somebody a 30 year death sentence as being the same thing as adopting.

[robertthebard]

seraphymon wrote...

Sorry but i totally disagree. Swearing oaths, and assuming this and that doesnt quite cut it. Such as him storming off but how do we know what he does?

Also one can swear 2 oaths in his life, but when a choice has to be made which is right.

That all aside. the choice is the PC in turn mine. Alistair aside, what loghain did was unforgiveable. Even when the majority of the nobles are against him he refuses to give up power, at this point how would one know he wouldnt backstab us again? If it were up to me being locked up forever is a much harsher punishment then a quick, i feel the same in RL too. Do whatever it takes to stop the blight, but not be blinded by it. If i was alistaiir i woulda stormed off as well. A person can only take soo much, grey warden or no, so in a sense it only hurts a person when they have emotions, I believe anyone woulda done the same except for maybe a tranquil.

We know he storms off to get drunk in one ending because it's mentioned in the epilog.  In the rest of the endings he's a puppet to either Anora, Eamon, or the PC, or dead at the Archdemon.

I agree, Loghain was wrong to go against the Landsmeet.  So how is Alistair right to go against the Landsmeet some 5 minutes later?  Because if you decide to spare Loghain, this is exactly what he does.  The funny thing here is that the Human Noble origin is the one that should really be the most offended by his outburst, especially if it's not metagamed to be queen/chancelor to Alistair.  So the only reason to forgive his outburst, and support Alistair isn't for justice, or even vengence, it's to get on the throne, the same thing that Loghain did.  Male nobles can, of course, get there by either road, allowing Alistair to kill Loghain, and letting Alistair die at the Archdemon, or by allowing Alistair to storm off or die.  Again, manipulating the situation to get on the throne.  Seems to me that it's doing the exact same things that Anora is accused of being just like her father for doing.

[Cybercat999]

LynxAQ wrote...

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.

But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...

Stay Tuned!!!

/popcorn

Can I has robertthebard as my next companion instead of Alistair plx?

Modifié par Cybercat999, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:21 .

[Finiffa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.

But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...

Stay Tuned!!!

Hehe...funny that you should mention "fanatics" when it's you and robertthebeard that can't go on two seconds withot  "I have anthing out of Alistairs mouth"...."I so enjoyed executing Alistair"..."we need an option to kil lhim sooner", comments....every...two...seconds. Everywhere you can squeeze it.
You're burning hate is fascinating.

Yes that makes me laugh as well.....there can't be a thread about Alistair and they pop in to express their hatred for him and now anyone disagreeing is a fanatic  very funny.

Tbh it's a tribute to the game that everyone gets so emotionally involved . I don't think I ever had similar discussions for ANY RPG game I played (and thats a LOT of games).

[Kohaku]

Cybercat999 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.

But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...

Stay Tuned!!!

/popcorn

Can I has robertthebard as my next companion instead of Alistair plx?

Pass the popcorn! This board always has alot going for it. No matter what time you're on.

[robertthebard]

Finiffa wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

Ah, robertthebard still fighting the good fight (Loghain's cause). Singlehandedly fending off the evil Alistair fanatics.

But who knows how many more Alistair fanatics will crawl from the evil dark wet place...

Stay Tuned!!!

Hehe...funny that you should mention "fanatics" when it's you and robertthebeard that can't go on two seconds withot  "I have anthing out of Alistairs mouth"...."I so enjoyed executing Alistair"..."we need an option to kil lhim sooner", comments....every...two...seconds. Everywhere you can squeeze it.
You're burning hate is fascinating.

Yes that makes me laugh as well.....there can't be a thread about Alistair and they pop in to express their hatred for him and now anyone disagreeing is a fanatic  very funny.

Tbh it's a tribute to the game that everyone gets so emotionally involved . I don't think I ever had similar discussions for ANY RPG game I played (and thats a LOT of games).

I resent this implication.  I have never posted in the Alistair love thread, the most recent one anyway, despite permission from the OP to post how I love Alistair('s guts on the floor of the Landsmeet).  Really, you can run through the thread if you want, I have never posted there.  In fact, I don't think I've read past the first 5 or 6 posts, having looked in it when it was first posted, but not again since.  I for sure don't waffle on my position though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The whole Landsmet thing is stupid. Why in the HELL would the landsmeet let YOU decide what happens to Loghain?

If anything they should decide... or Alistair or Anora...ESPECIALLY if he turned agaisnt the landsmeet.





Regarding Loghains punishment, I missed the option to just throw him in a dungeon and deal with him later. Making him a Warden is IMO, not really an option. As a punishment is not fitting, since he doesn't deserve the honor of being called a Grey Warden (since wardens are considered a honorable position).

If I want to be cruel, throwing him in the dungeon wihtout a chance for redemption, and forever staining his name is a better option.

If I want to be mercifull, a quick death is better than wasting in a cell or slowly dying on the gallows.





Two things to consider about Al robert:

1) that it doens't have to do with love for Duncan in the first place. People don't need to love a person as a sole motive for huge and extreeme actions. People have killed for less. There can be other reasons too.



2) How much you love/respect someone isn't propertional to how much someone else loves/respects you...or how long and how well you know that person. So saiyng that Al couldn't possibly be really outraged is redicolous. It happens in real life too.

If someone were to assasinate John Paul 2nd, sell slaves, betray people and commit attrocities, you can bet your ass I'd want him dead. And I haven't even met the Pope.

[Vergil_dgk]

I thought Alistair's reaction was a weak moment in an otherwise strong end-game, though I do understand why he hates Loghain and would never trust him. It was more the way it was handled... him sounding like a whiny kid after all we had been through. It didn't work for me.

[Sabriana]

It's a fallacy to assume that everyone's dislike for the Alistair character is groundless. In my very first play-through as a human mage, my PC was smitten with him from the get-go. She even understood his obsession with Duncan, although she felt it was rather one-sided.

The first wrong tone crept in when he calmly watched her having a nightmare. Now that might not be true for everyone, but when I see someone having a nightmare, I usually wake her/him up, friend or no. However, my PC explained it away with "maybe I'm supposed to have it for some reason".

But then we go on, an she shrugs it off. He's charming, sweet, and all that jazz. But now we reach Redcliffe,and he springs a great surprise on her. He's the heir to the throne. He didn't deign it necessary to tell my PC that beforehand. All his reasons are invalid and soppy, he is a danger to the usurper, who in all likelihood knows of his origin. His background makes everything so much more dangerous, not only for him, but for everyone in the company. So our greatest enemy (beside the Blight) at that point knows more than the PC. Super.

But my mage is still smitten, he's so charming, and so attentive, she forgives him. But the downhill slide has begun.
The castle and the village are on the verge of total anihilation, but we manage to circumvent it. Reaching the castle, we find out various things, including the fact that Isolde is the initial instigator of all this death and destruction. We give into her wailing, heed Jowan, and go to the tower, even though it is highly illogical. Leaving the demon-boy to his own devices even for a few hours can spell disaster, let alone at least two days. My mage finds her former home in total disarray and on the verge of destruction. Nothing fast going on here. Now she has to hurry, to a)get rid of demon-boy without the mages, and return to the tower asap to help her mates. Time has become an enemy.

She yields to Isolde's plea to sacrifice herself, and to right the wrongs she inflicted on castle and village alike. Yeah, it's blood magic, but as far as my PC knows, she's all out of choices.
Alistair blows up at her like no tomorrow. He berates her for using blood magic, for letting Isolde die, tells her that he owes Eamon more than that. Pardon me? What the heck was she supposed to do? He had nothing to say about it, he made no decisions. It was also he who told my mage that Isolde whined at Eamon so long that he finally dumped his "foster son" into the Chantry in favor of his wife. He also says that Isolde made sure the castle didn't feel like home anymore and that she despised him. What? Hello? What is it that I missed here? Eamon's behavior at finding out is as different from Alistair's as day is from night.

All through the rest of the game, things deteriorate. Alistair is not the man she thought he was, in places, he doesn't act like a man at all, but like a child. But my mage tries to keep the romance going, tries to support him, build him up, etc.

We come to the end. She makes him king and he has nothing better to do than to dump my mage. For idiotic reasons at that. She's a commoner? So is Anora. Kids? Anora was married for 5 years and has none. Could be her fault, could be Cailan's, but the odds of conceiving with her are as bad/good as they are with my mage. She's a mage. So what, so was Isolde's uncle. To top it off, up comes the "persuade" option of her talking him into being his piece on the side. Say what? Put it where the sun don't shine, dude. Others might be perfectly fine with that, but that's not what my mage envisioned the so-called love of her life would act like.

I'm po'd at that point, so I reload and see what would happen if I defied his wish and let Loghain live. The disappointment was even greater. He betrays everything and everyone. That, in this wall of text, is what completely and utterly turned me off the character to the point that he's minding the campfire for the whole game and nothing else.

Modifié par Sabriana, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The whole Landsmet thing is stupid. Why in the HELL would the landsmeet let YOU decide what happens to Loghain?
If anything they should decide... or Alistair or Anora...ESPECIALLY if he turned agaisnt the landsmeet.


Regarding Loghains punishment, I missed the option to just throw him in a dungeon and deal with him later. Making him a Warden is IMO, not really an option. As a punishment is not fitting, since he doesn't deserve the honor of being called a Grey Warden (since wardens are considered a honorable position).
If I want to be cruel, throwing him in the dungeon wihtout a chance for redemption, and forever staining his name is a better option.
If I want to be mercifull, a quick death is better than wasting in a cell or slowly dying on the gallows.


Two things to consider about Al robert:
1) that it doens't have to do with love for Duncan in the first place. People don't need to love a person as a sole motive for huge and extreeme actions. People have killed for less. There can be other reasons too.

2) How much you love/respect someone isn't propertional to how much someone else loves/respects you...or how long and how well you know that person. So saiyng that Al couldn't possibly be really outraged is redicolous. It happens in real life too.
If someone were to assasinate John Paul 2nd, sell slaves, betray people and commit attrocities, you can bet your ass I'd want him dead. And I haven't even met the Pope.

Actually, in Ferelden, Wardens are known as traitors to the crown, courtesy of Sophia Dryden.  The only reason they are welcomed at this Landsmeet has to do with a large portion of Ferelden succumbing to the Blight.  This illusion, created largely by Jory and Alistair that being a Grey Warden is some kind of honor is delusional at best.  Wardens are not knights at Arthur's Round Table.  This is made obvious by Duncan's recruitment methods at Highever.  Again, if you want to say that Duncan isn't the quintessential Warden, why the hero worship from Alistair?  Alistair evidently believes he is.

Regarding your points, the biggest argument for killing Loghain is that he allowed Alistair's father figure to die.  This suggests a love relationship.  This is the foremost excuse put forth for excusing his outburst at the Landsmeet.  The only reason we are given, through Alistair, is the death of Duncan.  This is all that matters to Alistair, as can be seen through his dialog.  It's funny too, because Loghain's outburst if the Landsmeet decides against him is bad, but Alistair's outburst, if the Landsmeet decides against him is justified, since he didn't get to kill Loghain.  I submit that Loghain didn't get to kill the Grey Wardens, so his outburst is justified too.  If all that's required is not getting to commit murder to justify an action, how is this wrong, other than I really don't see it as being exactly right either.  The decision, after the duel, is left up to the PC.  If the PC decides to spare Loghain, and Alistair tries to take the crown to kill him, which he does, he's only doing it to commit murder, since Loghain's fate has already been decided.  How does this make him any different than Loghain?

Perhaps, but, in a reciprocal relationship, the attachment will be stronger, after all the object of your affection is returning those feelings, thus allowing them to grow.  Now, we don't know how Duncan really felt about Alistair, but I have seen nothing to suggest that he adopted him.  Alistair put him on a pedestal, and feels that he can do no wrong, as can be evidenced by his blind acceptance of the recruitment of the PC from the Human Noble origin.  It's perfectly acceptable to blackmail a dying man for one of their offspring.