232 réponses à ce sujet

[DreGregoire]

Maria Caliban wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

I think this perspective is still limited to the lense of "rivalry = punishment" or "friendship = the "right" way to play"

There is no "right" answer to give Anders when he hits on the player. It is entirely subjective. The player can choose to engage or to reject and the rejection is a polite statement, its certainly not mean or insulting. But Anders still expresses his disappointment. It is clear that his feelings and his pride have been hurt, and that is an absolutely reasonable response for someone being rejected. (Have been rejected, can confirm)

Except 'you hurt my feelings' shouldn't give rivalry points.

Therein, lies the problem with a system that is based on a line that either gives you negative or positive points, or in this case points towards friendship or rivalry. Should it have given us friendship points? No points?  I think that to Anders being rejected is a negative so hence the negative (rivalry) points; however, with Isabela rejection of certain things gives you friendship (positive) points. It is not by any stretch a perfect system but it is simple. I would love to see a more complex system in DAIII.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[CitizenThom]

Renmiri1 wrote...

My experience in this kind of threads is the more rope you give to people who protest about being flirted by the same sex, the more they show their homophobia. I have yet to be pleasantly surprised.

You need your secret spy glass and code ring to spot them all...

[upsettingshorts]

CitizenThom wrote...

Is the word homophobia covered by Goodwin's Law yet?

References to the N@zis do not fall under Godwin's law when references to N@zis are appropriate responses to the subject at hand.

Same is true with homophobia.  

OP clarified himself so I don't feel the need to press the issue.  However, so many criticisms of Anders' romance in DA2 do fall under that umbrella, so using it as a starting assumption is appropriate, especially given the similar rhetoric in most cases.

[Masha Potato]

jlb524 wrote...

TheWout wrote...
I think the main reason why it is so overly easy to end up romancing Anders is because it would add a whole new level of drama and feels to his story arc.
Thereforce, it felt "forced"

I thought this thread was about not romancing Anders vs. finding it easy to get into a romance with him.

I didn't find it 'easy to end up romancing Anders' because I never chose that path.  I did find it pretty easy to avoid it though.

Anders is pretty much Dragon Age Liara

woe woe

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

Therin, lies the problem with a system that is based on a line that either gives you negative or positive points. Should it have given us friendship points? No points?  I think that to Anders being rejected is a negative so hence the negative points; however, with Isabela rejection of certain things gives you friendship points. It is not by any stretch a perfect system but it is simple. I would love to see a more complex system in DAIII.

The problem with DA2's Friend/Rivalry in this respect wasn't that it wasn't complex enough, it's that it wasn't entirely internally consistent.

Anders' core issue is mage freedom.  If you agree with it, you gain friendship, if you don't, you gain rivalry.  That's fine and how it should go.

Problem is when a character makes a romantic pass at the player, that doesn't have anything to do with the player character's opinion of their core issue, so it really shouldnt alter friend/rivalry at all.  It does though, because it wasn't really implemented consistently.

However, had the interaction gone down like this:

Anders:  "Hey you are attractive lets make out."
Hawke Option 1: "Awesome." (Begins romance)
Hawke Option 2: "Nah." (Anders is rejected, kind of put off, no Rivalry points)
Hawke Option 3: "Ew I don't like mages." (Anders is rejected, kind of put off, Rivalry points)

Then it might make more sense.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[CitizenThom]

@upsetting shorts: Fair enough. I myself didn't like Anders after what he did in the third chapter. On my first playthrough though, he was my preferred mage. (Which goes to the whole point of players being able to alter the details of the story, even if they can't prevent the outcome. Would've loved if on the second playthrough I had a way of preventing Anders from bombing that church).

Modifié par CitizenThom, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

TheWout wrote...
I think the main reason why it is so overly easy to end up romancing Anders is because it would add a whole new level of drama and feels to his story arc.
Thereforce, it felt "forced"

I'm not sure any romance felt "forced" in DA2, and certainly there was no ninja-mancing whatsoever. The big fat heart did its job remarkably well in this regard. I <3 it!

[Renmiri1]

Not necessarily.. Press on for rational explanation of why rejecting an advance is bad and insulting and you will see blatant and explicit hate. And a locked thread.

We women have to reject advances all the time IRL so maybe we are more used to it. Is amusing to see grown men cry like babies about having to do it once in a game. Why is like they are being forced to accept the flirt!

[CitizenThom]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Not necessarily.. Press on for rational explanation of why rejecting an advance is bad and insulting and you will see blatant and explicit hate. And a locked thread.

We women have to reject advances all the time IRL so maybe we are more used to it. Is amusing to see grown men cry like babies about having to do it once in a game. Why is like they are being forced to accept the flirt!

I thought the complaint was the dialogue options available. I have friends who are just fine being friends, Anders on the other hand, acts like a thirteen year old getting turned down rather than an adult, who being a grey warden, and going through adventures outside of Amaranthine ought to be a little more grown up by now... don't you think?

[upsettingshorts]

scyphozoa wrote...

On the other hand, if rejection isn't going to earn rivalry points, then should flirting earn friendship points? 

I would argue no.

Tracking more than one variable introduces issues just like we see with Anders, people thinking that rejecting his advances results in a "penalty."

CitizenThom wrote...

I thought the complaint was the dialogue options available. I have friends who are just fine being friends, Anders on the other hand, acts like a thirteen year old getting turned down rather than an adult, who being a grey warden, and going through adventures outside of Amaranthine ought to be a little more grown up by now... don't you think?

Anders has major issues with acceptance, or a lack of it.  It's completely in character for him to be, in that moment, upset. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[byzantine horse]

It isn't that bad to be hit on by a dude if you are a straight male, I think I'm being openly hit on by other guys than by girls (probably because men are more open about such things) and I don't flip no tables about it. I don't see why some think it's such a distressing part of the game, you do have the option to say no or not make any approaches yourself.

People are different and some will be more open or outright willing to get in your pants than others will, regardless of sex or preference.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts typed out exactly what I meant. I get that Anders is hurt when you turn him down. I felt bad for the guy. But rivalry, as I understood it, is more about ideals and personal philosophy - not feelings.

scyphozoa wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Except 'you hurt my feelings' shouldn't give rivalry points.

Hmm, I am torn on this. On one hand, I do agree. I think the cinematics and dialog are more than sufficient in displaying Ander's response to rejection. On the other hand, if rejection isn't going to earn rivalry points, then should flirting earn friendship points? I think my dissonance about this stems from the ambiguity of the friendship/rivalry scale. I wonder if any romance choices should be entirely indepedent of friendship/rivalry points?

I get that flirting with Isabela gets you friendship. Not just because she likes you hitting on her, but because 'having fun' is what Isabela is about.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Bromance...... sidekicks that take bullets for you when you don't want to die.

[Renmiri1]

CitizenThom wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Not necessarily.. Press on for rational explanation of why rejecting an advance is bad and insulting and you will see blatant and explicit hate. And a locked thread.

We women have to reject advances all the time IRL so maybe we are more used to it. Is amusing to see grown men cry like babies about having to do it once in a game. Why is like they are being forced to accept the flirt!

I thought the complaint was the dialogue options available. I have friends who are just fine being friends, Anders on the other hand, acts like a thirteen year old getting turned down rather than an adult, who being a grey warden, and going through adventures outside of Amaranthine ought to be a little more grown up by now... don't you think?

Anders + Justice is pretty passionate and jumps into situations without thinking much. He merges with a Fade spirit. He bombs a Chantry. He likes you, he goes after you. That has nothing to do with age, it has to do with character. Fade spirits are all about emotion and have little patience. Anders does hold Justice back a bit but not enough. 

I loved the fact that Anders took the initiative with my Hawke. Was refreshing. I can see your Hawke not liking Anders and saying no to his advances. I did that to Liara and Isabela. But you won't find a forum post from me or from most people complaining about Liara. Or Isabella. Gee, I wonder what is so different about them...

[TheWout]

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

[Renmiri1]

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

It is not

[Vandicus]

Masha Potato wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TheWout wrote...
I think the main reason why it is so overly easy to end up romancing Anders is because it would add a whole new level of drama and feels to his story arc.
Thereforce, it felt "forced"

I thought this thread was about not romancing Anders vs. finding it easy to get into a romance with him.

I didn't find it 'easy to end up romancing Anders' because I never chose that path.  I did find it pretty easy to avoid it though.

Anders is pretty much Dragon Age Liara

woe woe

I don't see the resemblance, but then its been a while since I played ME1. Liara is my typical LI for ME playthroughs, and I don't really recall her being an initiator type.

Speaking purely for myself here, the Anders rejection option is an uncomfortable one. I've rejected(even the word reject seems harsh) people irl that take it negatively, and some take it in stride. When they take it negatively it feels awkward between you for a long time. I haven't had even a hiccup in my friendships with the ones who took it in stride(no personal judgement/feelings of being offended). Thank the Maker that Anders didn't ask why you weren't interested. Hell is that awkward. 

As much as I enjoy the "human" feeling in Bioware characters, there are some things, like awkward rejections, I'd like to avoid. 

Fortunately one of the 'flirt' colored options as I recall doesn't face plant the player into a relationship like the other one. It allows the character to play more oblivious to it and avoid rivalry hits(*note this only works sometimes irl).

Of course this wasn't a problem for me after my first playthrough. Every time I pick up the man I just think "GOD DAMNIT ANDERS!" and I pretty much act hostile to him.

*EDIT

A good example of a much more comfortable rejection is Tali, if romanced in ME2. In ME3 she's very accepting if Shepard moves on to someone else like the original LI from ME1. That's how I'd prefer things to work in DA3. Course that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Vandicus, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Battlebloodmage]

I wonder if a romance meter or point system would be a good idea to implement. The way I see it, you can be romantically involve with that person or bromatically involved with that person depending on your choices.

[CitizenThom]

Renmiri1 wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Not necessarily.. Press on for rational explanation of why rejecting an advance is bad and insulting and you will see blatant and explicit hate. And a locked thread.

We women have to reject advances all the time IRL so maybe we are more used to it. Is amusing to see grown men cry like babies about having to do it once in a game. Why is like they are being forced to accept the flirt!

I thought the complaint was the dialogue options available. I have friends who are just fine being friends, Anders on the other hand, acts like a thirteen year old getting turned down rather than an adult, who being a grey warden, and going through adventures outside of Amaranthine ought to be a little more grown up by now... don't you think?

Anders + Justice is pretty passionate and jumps into situations without thinking much. He merges with a Fade spirit. He bombs a Chantry. He likes you, he goes after you. That has nothing to do with age, it has to do with character. Fade spirits are all about emotion and have little patience. Anders does hold Justice back a bit but not enough. 

I loved the fact that Anders took the initiative with my Hawke. Was refreshing. I can see your Hawke not liking Anders and saying no to his advances. I did that to Liara and Isabela. But you won't find a forum post from me or from most people complaining about Liara. Or Isabella. Gee, I wonder what is so different about them...

Isabella gets plenty of hate on these forums. I haven't seen you hate on her, but then again I don't tend to take notes or keep score.

Liara not so much. I didn't play ME1, but after Lair of the Shadow Broker and ME3, how can you not like her? She's a bigger sweetheart than Tali even.

People do complain about Merrill though, for being a sweetheart... they miss the part where she's a sweetheart blood mage. Perhaps the blood mage part of her identity didn't get enough exposure to sharpen the Jeckyl/Hyde thing.

[Battlebloodmage]

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

I'm starting to understand David's post more and more...

[Massa FX]

I remember unintentionally getting romance with Merrill as femHawke. I just restored a previous save and was mean to her. It wasn't homophobia or anything like that. I wanted the priest prince DLC guy. It didn't work out. Then I romanced Anders, but had to kill him cause he was nuts. FemHawke had no luck in romance.

Modifié par Massa FX, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Dutchess]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

On the other hand, if rejection isn't going to earn rivalry points, then should flirting earn friendship points? 

I would argue no.

When you've initiated a romance with a companion, you do get rivalry points for heart options if you're already headed for the rival path, so they have taken that into account. For the most part.

[DreGregoire]

The lack of a more complex relationship system, one that tracks more than just how a person views what you do and say, is where the problem is. If you had one line to show how well matched your ideas/views and actions are with a companion, and one line to determine how your personal/romantic relationship is progressing with a singular companion, then the system would likely work better. This makes a system that is more complex. One that makes you friends or rivals and one that determines if you are romantic or not and the degree of the romance. To make it even more complex the romance line should also use the frienship/rival line to determine if you are friend/inbetween/rival to determine how a LI relates to you. However DA2 utilizes the friendship/rivalry line in all interactions and then uses romantic choices/encouragements/rejections as a on or off valve for romance.

Edit: And if you tell Isabela that of course you aren't interested in a serious romance you get friendship points because you are agreeing with her view.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:50 .