232 réponses à ce sujet

[turtled]

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

So...did you also feel the Isabela romance was forced when, in accepting her recruitment quest, Hawke flirts with her? "I could manage watching your back," I think the line was, despite not being denoted by the heart icon.

[Renmiri1]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

I'm starting to understand David's post more and more...

Indeed.. To hear people whinning is like this is what happens. It is not. It is very easy to sidestep Anders' advances. A foolprof way for people who can't resist clicking on his heart icon is to romance someone else.

http://www.popmatter...ectic-of-dragon   

Take your damn rivalry points like a man and stop whinning 

[Maria Caliban]

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

Anders suddenly hitting on my PC made me uncomfortable. When it felt like my options were 'flirt back or break his heart,' that made me feel worse.

And that's okay. Video games can sometimes make you feel uncomfortable or that the situation isn't fair. DA II actually does this a number of times.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I didn't know that it's mandatory for people to click on the heart icon.

Alternatively: "Oh no a man made a pass at me, the horror!" 

Just tell him you aren't interested and resume being friends.  Not.  That.  Hard.

Unless you're dealing with Zevran. The jerk decided to betray me just because I told him I wasn't interested in him... Then I had to run my sword through his back... And I didn't hate him... 

Back on the main topic though. It is actually very easy to avoid the heart icon. The only time I've ever clicked on all the heart icons was when I was playing my very flirtatious Lady Hawke... Ah, fun times...

[Maclimes]

 The solution, as you say, is more complex. Perhaps instead of the polarized Friendship/Rivalry meter, we have two meters, 0-100 (DAO style).

Those two meters are Respect and Affection.

Respect is earned (and lost) by actions that affect the party member's beliefs and strongly-held morals. So if you let a mage go free, you would gain Respect with Merill and Anders, but lose it with Fenris. If you sided with a blood mage, you would gain Respect with Merill, but lose it with Anders and Fenris.

Affection, on the other hand, is gained and lost on a more personal level. Direct interaction, gifts, conversation choices, attitude, etc. Bear in mind that Affection does not always mean Romance. I am quite affectionate towards my children, but I'm not about to romance them. Affection can lead to romance, if angled properly, or simply to close friendship/sibling-style relationship.

Modifié par Maclimes, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Vandicus]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

TheWout wrote...

The problem was never that Anders makes a pass, it's about how it's forced on the player by a lack of options

I'm starting to understand David's post more and more...

Indeed.. To hear people whinning is like this is what happens. It is not. It is very easy to sidestep Anders' advances. A foolprof way for people who can't resist clicking on his heart icon is to romance someone else.

http://www.popmatter...ectic-of-dragon   

Take your damn rivalry points like a man and stop whinning 

It very easily seems that way. One of my friends who plays DA2(and always cross gender roleplays so the romance would've been 'straight' before anyone here makes more accusations of homophobia) complained about it thinking the only options were pursue romance or rejection. Superficially there did not seem to be a "let him down easy" option. I didn't even realize this myself even though I had passed through it already without rejecting Anders OR pursuing a romance. Turns out the let him down easy option was colored with a heart, even though it does not lead to a romance(as later conversations to that effect can easily be sidestepped), and I had chosen it without realizing that it was an alleged romance option. 

Realistically there should be a "let him down easy" or "pretend to be oblivious to advances" option, as it exists in real life(and works too, although acting oblivious only works until they're up in your face about it or if they lose interest). There does not seem to be one, although there actually is. Its existence is a good thing I think. That it was heart colored was a bad thing. 

[berelinde]

Beerfish wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

bigbad1013 wrote...

Less eager? Anders came on to my male Hawke, once, and I turned him down. I don't see the problem with that. OP, have you never had someone come on to you WITHOUT you first telling them that it's okay? I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

That is not really the issue, it's that it was a departure from the way most other romances had progressed in the past.  It's not a big issue in the grand scheme of the whole game but it felt forced.

Did it? I thought it felt quite natural. Your character was supportive. Flirting happened. I found it to be a refreshing realistic, and a pleasant change from having to make the first move.

I never had a chance to be supportive, it was pretty well in the 1st converstaion you have with the dude.  It would feel just as forced if the 1st convo I had with Merril or Isabela after a one line convo they gave me the old heart dialogue option.

It feels forced to you when an NPC flirts with your character, but it does not feel forced when you click on "Accept Quest" with Isabela and your character flirts with her? It does not feel forced to you when, after involuntarily flirting with her in accepting her quest, your character leers lustfully at her upon completing it with no input from you? Right.

Don't get me wrong. I adore Isabela and do enjoy flirting with her, but I would really, really have preferred to be the one initiating those flirts. After all, my character was the one doing the talking.

[marshalleck]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a slightly related note, and since David is here... Hey David, didn't you say at some point that you specifically wrote a male companion to be as subservient and agreeable as possible to the player, and he ended up being the most popular male character ever?

Not quite. I hypothesized whether making a character completely servile and supportive of every single thing that player does would, in fact, make him more popular-- based on the fact that many of our more popular characters, like Minsc or HK-47 or, heck, even Varric-- don't actually oppose the player in any fashion.

The result was Deekin. You can make of that what you like.

That's pretty sad. My favorite Bioware characters have always been the ones that aren't afraid to disagree with the PC and state in clear terms when they think I'm wrong. Viconia, Morrigan, Sten, Wynne, (can't remember any from KOTOR, didn't like JE) Wrex, Garrus, Jack etc. I can't stand companions with no backbone.

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Maclimes wrote...

 The solution, as you say, is more complex. Perhaps instead of the polarized Friendship/Rivalry meter, we have two meters, 0-100 (DAO style).

Those two meters are Respect and Affection.

Respect is earned (and lost) by actions that affect the party member's beliefs and strongly-held morals. So if you let a mage go free, you would gain Respect with Merill and Anders, but lose it with Fenris. If you sided with a blood mage, you would gain Respect with Merill, but lose it with Anders and Fenris.

Affection, on the other hand, is gained and lost on a more personal level. Direct interaction, gifts, conversation choices, attitude, etc. Bear in mind that Affection does not always mean Romance. I am quite affectionate towards my children, but I'm not about to romance them. Affection can lead to romance, if angled properly, or simply to close friendship/sibling-style relationship.

Conceptually, I'd be fine with that.  However think about what it would mean to implement it to the level that it actually had an impact on anything.

Let's take any given conversation, it would have to be checked to make sure it accounted for:

• Low Respect Low Affection
• Low Respect Normal Affection
• Low Respect High Affection
• Normal Respect Low Affection
• Normal Respect Normal Affection
• Normal Respect High Affection
• High Respect Low Affection
• High Respect Normal Affection
• High Respect High Affection 

That's... a lot. 

For what it's worth I think Friend/Rivalry and a romance "flag" is fine, and DA2 comes fairly close to pulling it off. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Come to think of it, I imagine most conversations would only need to check Respect or Affection, though some would have to check both. It still means 3x the work for 2x the depth, though.

[upsettingshorts]

scyphozoa wrote...

I do think its a bit difficult to imagine an NPC with low respect and high affection. Though I suppose no more difficult to imagine than rivalmances.

I don't respect my dog's opinions, but we do like to hug.

(Unpleasant implications as to what I'm saying about such a romance in hypothetical DA game are intentional.)

[Masha Potato]

Anders is a great example of low respect and high affection for me

[Wulfram]

I don't think Respect is a good term for whether you agree or disagree with them.

[Battlebloodmage]

scyphozoa wrote...

I do think its a bit difficult to imagine an NPC with low respect and high affection. Though I suppose no more difficult to imagine than rivalmances.

I feel like with 2 meters, it should work. Like, even with high love meter, that person wouldn't jump into the sack with you unless their friendly meter also pass a certain amounts. The friendship is mainly to determined whether or not they betray you while the romance meter is more like a flag system in which the romance scene won't happen unless it fills up to a certain amount.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

Where as irl if you ask a girl out and she says no, it doesn't automatically mean you have to hate her.


That aside God! he is a ****ty character, he was grand in DAO awakening, but in dragon age 2 I just want to keep replaying that part where you kill him.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...
Not quite. I hypothesized whether making a character completely servile and supportive of every single thing that player does would, in fact, make him more popular-- based on the fact that many of our more popular characters, like Minsc or HK-47 or, heck, even Varric-- don't actually oppose the player in any fashion.
The result was Deekin. You can make of that what you like.

Well, a full picture is needed here: Deekin is a Bard/Disciple of the Dragon KOBOLD. That alone, regardless of personality, earns him a lot of popularity points. Kobolds are derpy and adorable.
And I would disagree that Minsc doesn't oppose Charname. Maybe not directly, but trying to juggle Minsc and Edwin results in slaughter, and the aggresor is usually Minsc.
But I see the point you're making.

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TheWout wrote...
I'd also like to add that i was annoyed that i was pretty much dependent on Anders in my team since he is the only reliable healer if you are playing a warrior/rogue
so i had to listen to his whining throughout my whole gameplay

I used healing potions. They worked very well, and the game is designed to drop them if you are below a certain number. There's also the ability to order Elfroot potions too.

It would have been nice if the game told me this.

 
Not having skill trees randomly removed from characters (and thus having Merril with Creation tree without having to resort to mods) would've been good too. More party composition options (which in this case, didn't even require increase the amount of party members, only access to skills they should naturally have) are always nice.

Modifié par Xewaka, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[berelinde]

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

[Maclimes]

High Affection, High Respect: Inseperable. Best buds. Agree with each other, and get along great. Normal loving romance possible. Could end with marriage and kids. Or if not a romance, certainly would be the best man at yout wedding.

High Affection, Low Respect: The sort-of Rivalmance option. Romance possible, but doomed to failure in the long run due to philosophical differences. The sex is better, though. In non-romance situations, they enjoy hanging out with you, but man, don't bring up politics around this guy. He's a frikkin' lunatic.

Low Affection, High Respect: Think Sten from DA:O, if you max his friendship. He totally respects you, and digs what you do. He's glad you're on his side. But he doesn't actually LIKE you. Alternative interpretation: Fear. Think of a powerful general or leader, in relation to his troops. They greatly respect him, and would follow him to hell and back. But they sure as hell don't LIKE him.

Low Affection, Low Respect: Hate you. No reason to like you at all. Either leave party or, potentially, attack you outright.

************

Again, this is all just brainstorming here. I'm not 100% tied to the idea.

[Calians]

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

Where as irl if you ask a girl out and she says no, it doesn't automatically mean you have to hate her.


That aside God! he is a ****ty character, he was grand in DAO awakening, but in dragon age 2 I just want to keep replaying that part where you kill him.

I don't think there was not a playthrough that I didn't give him good old fashion justice. He was awesome in DA:A but..it's like he was a happy/sarcastic and a (jokster?) in DA:A then became a zealous(depressed maybe?Might need a different word to describe him) guy and it felt kinda wrong/different to me. Not to mention in DA:A he was constantly hitting on Velenna. I had a vibe coming off from DA:A thinking Anders was a player amongst the women he comes in contact, I was a bit suprised when he would swing both ways in DA:2 . I wasn't mad or anything I just think it's not his character. I don't know but thats what I have to say.

[Eternal Phoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a slightly related note, and since David is here... Hey David, didn't you say at some point that you specifically wrote a male companion to be as subservient and agreeable as possible to the player, and he ended up being the most popular male character ever?

Not quite. I hypothesized whether making a character completely servile and supportive of every single thing that player does would, in fact, make him more popular-- based on the fact that many of our more popular characters, like Minsc or HK-47 or, heck, even Varric-- don't actually oppose the player in any fashion.

The result was Deekin. You can make of that what you like.

Deekin for DA3.

[Renmiri1]

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

QFT

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character.

Calians wrote...

I don't think there was not a playthrough that I didn't give him good old fashion justice. He was awesome in DA:A but..it's like he was a happy/sarcastic and a (jokster?) in DA:A then became a zealous(depressed maybe?Might need a different word to describe him) guy and it felt kinda wrong/different to me. Not to mention in DA:A he was constantly hitting on Velenna. I had a vibe coming off from DA:A thinking Anders was a player amongst the women he comes in contact, I was a bit suprised when he would swing both ways in DA:2 . I wasn't mad or anything I just think it's not his character. I don't know but thats what I have to say.

I got the feeling from awaking that he was bisexual.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[Calians]

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character.

Calians wrote...

I don't think there was not a playthrough that I didn't give him good old fashion justice. He was awesome in DA:A but..it's like he was a happy/sarcastic and a (jokster?) in DA:A then became a zealous(depressed maybe?Might need a different word to describe him) guy and it felt kinda wrong/different to me. Not to mention in DA:A he was constantly hitting on Velenna. I had a vibe coming off from DA:A thinking Anders was a player amongst the women he comes in contact, I was a bit suprised when he would swing both ways in DA:2 . I wasn't mad or anything I just think it's not his character. I don't know but thats what I have to say.

I got the feeling from awaking that he was bisexual.

Really? I didn't have him in my party a lot but when I did he was hitting on Velenna and talked about girls so I must have missed something. But regardless I liked him more in DA:A than in DA:2

[Battlebloodmage]

Calians wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character.

Calians wrote...

I don't think there was not a playthrough that I didn't give him good old fashion justice. He was awesome in DA:A but..it's like he was a happy/sarcastic and a (jokster?) in DA:A then became a zealous(depressed maybe?Might need a different word to describe him) guy and it felt kinda wrong/different to me. Not to mention in DA:A he was constantly hitting on Velenna. I had a vibe coming off from DA:A thinking Anders was a player amongst the women he comes in contact, I was a bit suprised when he would swing both ways in DA:2 . I wasn't mad or anything I just think it's not his character. I don't know but thats what I have to say.

I got the feeling from awaking that he was bisexual.

Really? I didn't have him in my party a lot but when I did he was hitting on Velenna and talked about girls so I must have missed something. But regardless I liked him more in DA:A than in DA:2

He has piercing on his right ear, just saying.