232 réponses à ce sujet

[Calians]

So? I have a piercing on my right ear. Doesn't really mean anything.

Modifié par Calians, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[berelinde]

DinoSteve wrote...

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character.

You might want to check the walkthrough. There are ways to navigate that conversation, turn him down, and get no rivalry points at all. But that only works if you aren't looking for a reason to hate him.

[Alan Rickman]

Not read the entire thread yet, and I'm probably not the first, but:

Anders wanting to be the sausage in a Hawke hot dog =/= bromance.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I have saved before having that conversation with him and there is no way to come out of that conversation without romancing or flirting with him and the other option gets you rivalry points.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[brushyourteeth]

I still think you shouldn't have gotten friendship OR rivalry for rejecting or flirting with Anders.

If both reactions are just different expressions of the friend-dynamic, flirting with Anders (making him happy) shouldn't have ever made you closer to friendship, while rejecting him (making him sad or angry) brought you closer to rivalry.

Those emotions are much closer to approval and disapproval. Since we didn't have those in DAII, they probably shouldn't have been passed off as friendship or rivalry.

Because the truth is that Anders does get his feelings hurt if you reject him. And it hurts to be so harsh to him about it, with or without the rivalry points you earn.

[berelinde]

JobacNoor wrote...

Not read the entire thread yet, and I'm probably not the first, but:

Anders wanting to be the sausage in a Hawke hot dog =/= bromance.

I know. I came to this thread thinking it was about actual bromances, close platonic friendships Hawke can have with with Varric or any other male companion, but it was just the old "He's hitting on me!" thing again.

[CuriousArtemis]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I still think you shouldn't have gotten friendship OR rivalry for rejecting or flirting with Anders.

If both reactions are just different expressions of the friend-dynamic, flirting with Anders (making him happy) shouldn't have ever made you closer to friendship, while rejecting him (making him sad or angry) brought you closer to rivalry.

Those emotions are much closer to approval and disapproval. Since we didn't have those in DAII, they probably shouldn't have been passed off as friendship or rivalry.

Because the truth is that Anders does get his feelings hurt if you reject him. And it hurts to be so harsh to him about it, with or without the rivalry points you earn.

Wow this is all a really great point! I realize this is proof that I've thought of "rivalry" as "disapproval" all along because to me Anders' disapproval makes sense. You turned him down! Of course his feelings are hurt.

But why would this gain your rivalry? I dunno because to me the "rivalry" concept hasn't been fully realized by BW yet, ambitious as it is.

So, BW, I think this suggests you need to tweak the friendship/rivalry system, which I know you're already on to (I think). 

[Calians]

berelinde wrote...

JobacNoor wrote...

Not read the entire thread yet, and I'm probably not the first, but:

Anders wanting to be the sausage in a Hawke hot dog =/= bromance.

I know. I came to this thread thinking it was about actual bromances, close platonic friendships Hawke can have with with Varric or any other male companion, but it was just the old "He's hitting on me!" thing again.

I'd like a bromance like with the male shephard and garrus, that duo friendship is #1 in a game series for me.

[berelinde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I still think you shouldn't have gotten friendship OR rivalry for rejecting or flirting with Anders.

If both reactions are just different expressions of the friend-dynamic, flirting with Anders (making him happy) shouldn't have ever made you closer to friendship, while rejecting him (making him sad or angry) brought you closer to rivalry.

Those emotions are much closer to approval and disapproval. Since we didn't have those in DAII, they probably shouldn't have been passed off as friendship or rivalry.

Because the truth is that Anders does get his feelings hurt if you reject him. And it hurts to be so harsh to him about it, with or without the rivalry points you earn.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but Anders is kind of a special case. No other romanceable character has the Justice dynamic going on. It isn't *just* accepting or rejecting Anders's advances, it's accepting or rejecting his merger with Justice. Anders feels that because of his unique status, he has become unlovable. When Hawke goes ahead and flirts with him anyway or accepts his advances, it makes him feel better about himself and about his merger with Justice. When Hawke rejects him, it reinforces the idea that he has become an unlovable monster. So yeah, it really isn't about having nice eyes or a hot bod, it's about who Anders is as a person and it's about accepting or condemning the decisions he has made in his past.

[Cylan Cooper]

motomotogirl wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I still think you shouldn't have gotten friendship OR rivalry for rejecting or flirting with Anders.

If both reactions are just different expressions of the friend-dynamic, flirting with Anders (making him happy) shouldn't have ever made you closer to friendship, while rejecting him (making him sad or angry) brought you closer to rivalry.

Those emotions are much closer to approval and disapproval. Since we didn't have those in DAII, they probably shouldn't have been passed off as friendship or rivalry.

Because the truth is that Anders does get his feelings hurt if you reject him. And it hurts to be so harsh to him about it, with or without the rivalry points you earn.

Wow this is all a really great point! I realize this is proof that I've thought of "rivalry" as "disapproval" all along because to me Anders' disapproval makes sense. You turned him down! Of course his feelings are hurt.

But why would this gain your rivalry? I dunno because to me the "rivalry" concept hasn't been fully realized by BW yet, ambitious as it is.

So, BW, I think this suggests you need to tweak the friendship/rivalry system, which I know you're already on to (I think). 

But, it was pretty obvious rivalry was a substitute for disapproval that wouldn't lead to them calling you a complete, total monster and leaving you forever if they didn't support how you did things, but instead lead to a different cutscene where the character acted like they respected you and your methods.  I think they even stated that as the intent before release.

[Wulfram]

berelinde wrote...

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

If you're on the friendship path then it is.  And Anders only makes his move if you pick very friendshipy dialoguge choices.

[brushyourteeth]

motomotogirl wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I still think you shouldn't have gotten friendship OR rivalry for rejecting or flirting with Anders.

If both reactions are just different expressions of the friend-dynamic, flirting with Anders (making him happy) shouldn't have ever made you closer to friendship, while rejecting him (making him sad or angry) brought you closer to rivalry.

Those emotions are much closer to approval and disapproval. Since we didn't have those in DAII, they probably shouldn't have been passed off as friendship or rivalry.

Because the truth is that Anders does get his feelings hurt if you reject him. And it hurts to be so harsh to him about it, with or without the rivalry points you earn.

Wow this is all a really great point! I realize this is proof that I've thought of "rivalry" as "disapproval" all along because to me Anders' disapproval makes sense. You turned him down! Of course his feelings are hurt.

But why would this gain your rivalry? I dunno because to me the "rivalry" concept hasn't been fully realized by BW yet, ambitious as it is.

So, BW, I think this suggests you need to tweak the friendship/rivalry system, which I know you're already on to (I think). 

Thanks! I'm glad what I said actually made some sense to somebody - LOL!

To me, you ought to have had a rival flirt option AND a friend flirt option. Since we didn't have disapproval, when you reject him Anders could have just responded with a "You're right. Maybe it would be better if we didn't get involved." type of thing. No friendship points, no rivalry points.

Or maybe you could have had a rivalry rejection ("You're gross!") and a friendship rejection ("I would hate to complicate our friendship.")?

berelinde wrote...
Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but Anders is kind of a special case. No other romanceable character has the Justice dynamic going on. It isn't *just* accepting or rejecting Anders's advances, it's accepting or rejecting his merger with Justice. Anders feels that because of his unique status, he has become unlovable. When Hawke goes ahead and flirts with him anyway or accepts his advances, it makes him feel better about himself and about his merger with Justice. When Hawke rejects him, it reinforces the idea that he has become an unlovable monster. So yeah, it really isn't about having nice eyes or a hot bod, it's about who Anders is as a person and it's about accepting or condemning the decisions he has made in his past.

You have a great point! Personally, I've kinda always thought Anders' "I share my body with a spirit" conversation and his "I want to be your boyfriend but I'm afraid of hurting you" conversation should have happened at totally different times.

I mean, most people wouldn't expose their deepest secret when they first meet someone and then immediately start up with the flirting when they realize the other person isn't running away yet. In my Andersmances, I would have really loved the opportunity to validate him as a person first without flirting, since Hawke's flirts (in my opinion) kind of cheapened the moment and made light of his situation. Like his pain wasn't that important - "yeah, yeah - let's get to the flirting!!"

Merrill was similar - "I was just rejected by everyone I love!"   "You're so cute when you're depressing."
and really, so was Fenris - "I'm still being hunted by a man who used to torture me."   "You have a nice body!"
... ugh.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[SafetyShattered]

DinoSteve wrote...

I have saved before having that conversation with him and there is no way to come out of that conversation without romancing or flirting with him and the other option gets you rivalry points.

This. I tried so hard to navigate that scene as carefully as possible to refuse but still be nice about it. I still get rivalry points no matter how many times I try. Eventually I was just like screw it....go ahead....hate me.

[Renmiri1]

Shadowfang12 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I have saved before having that conversation with him and there is no way to come out of that conversation without romancing or flirting with him and the other option gets you rivalry points.

This. I tried so hard to navigate that scene as carefully as possible to refuse but still be nice about it. I still get rivalry points no matter how many times I try. Eventually I was just like screw it....go ahead....hate me.

And then 5 minutes later you got those rivalry points taken out on a next mission. 

I fail to see why the big drama.

[berelinde]

If it's any consolation, mages get rivalry points from Fenris just for existing. It's part of the joining dialogue and it's unavoidable (values range from 5 to 20, IIRC). They're rivalry points. If you're going for a rivalry relationship (romance or otherwise), rivalry points are good.

[philippe willaume]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I have saved before having that conversation with him and there is no way to come out of that conversation without romancing or flirting with him and the other option gets you rivalry points.

This. I tried so hard to navigate that scene as carefully as possible to refuse but still be nice about it. I still get rivalry points no matter how many times I try. Eventually I was just like screw it....go ahead....hate me.

And then 5 minutes later you got those rivalry points taken out on a next mission. 

I fail to see why the big drama.

that plus the fact that the rivalry path makes some sense of anders 5th of november experience

[daaaav]

Look I'd hate to wade into this quagmire again but this is a symptom of DA2 character relationship development in general rather than easy bromances.

Morrigan was a far more complicated character than any of the DA2 characters with what feels like a TON of dialogue. It was really tricky to figure her out and I really enjoyed it. In contrast, all DA2 characters felt simplistic due to reduced dialogue options and the dialogue symbols only compounded the problem.

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a slightly related note, and since David is here... Hey David, didn't you say at some point that you specifically wrote a male companion to be as subservient and agreeable as possible to the player, and he ended up being the most popular male character ever?

Not quite. I hypothesized whether making a character completely servile and supportive of every single thing that player does would, in fact, make him more popular-- based on the fact that many of our more popular characters, like Minsc or HK-47 or, heck, even Varric-- don't actually oppose the player in any fashion.

The result was Deekin. You can make of that what you like.

Seriously?  All that time I spent trying to help him be more assertive . . . 

Valen was definitely my favorite character in all of Neverwinter Nights and he's CERTAINLY not servile or supportive.  And Sten was by far my favorite in Origins.  Granted, Varric was probably my overall fave in DA2, but Fenris was a close second even though he was "angry emo anime boy" according to some.

I think Deekin, Minsc, HK-47 and Varric are popular due to the funny dialog more than the fact that they're easygoing.

[upsettingshorts]

I think it's more about proving a negative.

"If this character is servile and agreeable, nobody will hate them."

Characters that stand in opposition to the will of the protagonist in BioWare games are often controversial at best, and can often get disproportionately rough treatment (see Anora).

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Morrigian didn't agree with anything my warden done yet she was still my favorite character.

[upsettingshorts]

DinoSteve wrote...

Morrigian didn't agree with anything my warden done yet she was still my favorite character.

Let's not lose track of the point, here.  Of course there are and will be exceptions.  DG is talking about broad fandom impressions.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think it's more about proving a negative.

"If this character is servile and agreeable, nobody will hate them."

Characters that stand in opposition to the will of the protagonist in BioWare games are often controversial at best, and can often get disproportionately rough treatment (see Anora).

Yeah.  Female characters who conflict w/ PC are called *****es and male characters who conflict w/ PC are called "whiny."

[Lurklen]

daaaav wrote...

Look I'd hate to wade into this quagmire again but this is a symptom of DA2 character relationship development in general rather than easy bromances.

Morrigan was a far more complicated character than any of the DA2 characters with what feels like a TON of dialogue. It was really tricky to figure her out and I really enjoyed it. In contrast, all DA2 characters felt simplistic due to reduced dialogue options and the dialogue symbols only compounded the problem.

 I'd have to agree with this. Though I seem to be part of the minority on this one, I felt like every time I talked with my companions someone was either trying to get in my pants or there was a clear oppertunity to get in theirs. It just didn't feel very deep. Now I think part of this has to do with the time skips, which I think were a neat idea but didn't feel effective. So while I understand for the characters the last flirty dialougue might have been three years ago for me the player it didn't feel like much time past at all. Though to be fair off the top of my head i'm not sure how you would do this better, maybe have different seasons for some of the periods? 

[Dhiro]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a slightly related note, and since David is here... Hey David, didn't you say at some point that you specifically wrote a male companion to be as subservient and agreeable as possible to the player, and he ended up being the most popular male character ever?

Not quite. I hypothesized whether making a character completely servile and supportive of every single thing that player does would, in fact, make him more popular-- based on the fact that many of our more popular characters, like Minsc or HK-47 or, heck, even Varric-- don't actually oppose the player in any fashion.

The result was Deekin. You can make of that what you like.

Seriously?  All that time I spent trying to help him be more assertive . . . 

Valen was definitely my favorite character in all of Neverwinter Nights and he's CERTAINLY not servile or supportive.  And Sten was by far my favorite in Origins.  Granted, Varric was probably my overall fave in DA2, but Fenris was a close second even though he was "angry emo anime boy" according to some.

I think Deekin, Minsc, HK-47 and Varric are popular due to the funny dialog more than the fact that they're easygoing.

Pretty much. Not to say that never oppose to the player aren't popular among the fandom, but I feel that the characters in the list are popular because they're funny or snarky or both (or, in the case of HK, a psychopath).

[SamaraDraven]

I know I would feel angry towards someone I made an advance on if they turned me down. It usually doesn't kill the friendship but it smarts for a while. Anders would still feel hurt and angry no matter how nicely you put it. I think he finds it especially hurtful with a Hawke who hasn't outright condemned him because he thinks he's found a kindred spirit and if such a person can't love him, who can? He's not rational enough to convince himself that it's just because Hawke doesn't like him that way - even if he is, rejection hurts. I found it easy enough to earn back the points toward friendship that I lost when rejecting him. Hell when I wanted to rival him, I couldn't quite manage it unless I was unnecessarily cruel to all mages AND allowed blood magic options in the same playthrough! He's ridiculously easy to friend after you turn him down. I also discovered that you can flirt the once with him and still flirt with other people. Doing so a time or two before the second chat you have with Anders started a new romance with Fenris for me and flirting with Anders wasn't an option after that but it took most of Act 1 to pull off. I do think Anders' first romantic overtures are a bit sudden but as others have stated, Anders is a born flirt and it doesn't always have to mean anything. By that measurement, Hawke is worse! You can flirt with all potential companions in the first scene you can exchange dialogue - with exception to Aveline, I think. But there are flirt options for her and Varric later on too. The problem I see with dialogue sequences was how sometimes you could have multiple convo flags for the same character at a time. So when you finish one talk, you can immediately start the next. There's no way to avoid Anders' advances if you do that but he gets over Hawke's rejection pretty easily.