232 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

David Gaider wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...
lol, I love this topic. People who are uncomfortable flirting with a fictional character, but so narcissistic that they don't want to reject him.

I suspect there's also an element of powergamers who cannot conceive of getting "negative points" for anything, despite the fact that you can easily earn maximum Friendship with Anders three times over during the course of the game.

Or at least this is their professed reasoning. I've always found it interesting how some people characterize Anders' brief disappointment as akin to shooting him in the head, or suggest that he is angry at you for the rest of the game-- or, alternatively, that he hits on you for the rest of the game even if you turn him down-- neither of which are remotely true... though I guess that kind of justification sounds better than saying "it made me feel uncomfortable".

Hey Gaider, I just wanted to tell you my reaction to that particular scene with Anders.

I was uncomfortable flirting with Anders, and although that in itself didn't bother me (in a long term sense) so much I will readily admit that as soon as I rejected Anders and saw "rivalry" points I immediately wanted to reload and find a new way to handle the situation. I felt horrible when I got those rival points, and I felt horrible to Anders reaction. 

I'm personally not opposed to the way it was handled per se, but throughout my entire gaming career I have been "trained" to handle things in a certain way. When Anders reacted negatively I thought (read: instinctively reacted) that I had cut off content regarding Anders in some way down the line or that I had somehow "lost."

I felt the same way when I recieved rivalry points. I personally felt like rivalry points was "bad" for me in the game. That rivalry points means I did something wrong as I, the player, wanted to be friends with every companion in the game. Now rivalry points don't quite mean that you are not friends or allies of course (and I felt like the friend/rivalry system is a step in the right direction.) but as a player of DAO, and other games that have a "morality" system with party members... I felt like I lost and as such felt like I was playing wrong.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I am trying to say that I felt punished for being friendly to Anders, and I felt punished when I didn't want to be in a relationship with him, even if that wasn't necesarily true. I don't know if that is necesarrily bad or not, but it did feel liek an out of the blue wrist slap to me.

Maybe when I play more games that try to encorporate the "friendship/rivarly" system I might warm up to more moments like these. There are simply not that many games that give me this sort of reaction or situations though. I think that is a good thing, even if i'm not used to it.

[upsettingshorts]

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

[Dhiro]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

Pretty much. It's a good system, even with its flaws, in that it allows the player to experience content without having to force their characters to agree with all companions all the time.

I can't help but find most of the complains a bit silly, though. Both paths offer interesting content that often differs from eachother and show the same character in a different light... I'm not sure how that's supposed to be bad. Even if you're gunning for Friendship!Anders it's not like his, what, +15 rilvary is the end of the world.

[Harle Cerulean]

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character. 

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Dhiro wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

Pretty much. It's a good system, even with its flaws, in that it allows the player to experience content without having to force their characters to agree with all companions all the time.

I can't help but find most of the complains a bit silly, though. Both paths offer interesting content that often differs from eachother and show the same character in a different light... I'm not sure how that's supposed to be bad. Even if you're gunning for Friendship!Anders it's not like his, what, +15 rilvary is the end of the world.

No one said it was, but thats not the point, if you asked a person out in irl and they turned you down, you might feel a little hurt but you would not feel rivalry with that person because of it, there should be an option to let him down gently without earning points in either direction.
Besides if someone is hit on by a gay person, I find it hard to believe that the gay person would be upset because that person turned him down because he didn't have the same sexual orientation.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:17 .

[Nashiktal]

Dhiro wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

Pretty much. It's a good system, even with its flaws, in that it allows the player to experience content without having to force their characters to agree with all companions all the time.

I can't help but find most of the complains a bit silly, though. Both paths offer interesting content that often differs from eachother and show the same character in a different light... I'm not sure how that's supposed to be bad. Even if you're gunning for Friendship!Anders it's not like his, what, +15 rilvary is the end of the world.

The system is still somewhat flawed though. You can't have a middle ground with any of your companions. Agree with some things they do, and not others, and you might not get a filled out bar either way.

Also due to the rest of the industry, I feel an automatic kick in the gut whenever I see "rivalry" points as I feel they are negative, even though it isn't a negative thing in the grand scheme of the game.

[Nomen Mendax]

Dhiro wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

Pretty much. It's a good system, even with its flaws, in that it allows the player to experience content without having to force their characters to agree with all companions all the time.

I can't help but find most of the complains a bit silly, though. Both paths offer interesting content that often differs from eachother and show the same character in a different light... I'm not sure how that's supposed to be bad. Even if you're gunning for Friendship!Anders it's not like his, what, +15 rilvary is the end of the world.

An alternative is to not have the content be dependent on your relationship with the companion.  I don't see the rivalry scale as being any better than the like/dislike scale, since they both suffer from essentially the same problem. Just as the DAO like/dislike scale can't capture the fact that companions love you but hate your politics DA2s scale can't capture the fact that companions detest you and would rather sleep with an incontinent nug.

And as everyone else has pointed out making rivalry points big, red and scary was not a good plan.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:19 .

[Dhiro]

DinoSteve wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Friend/Rivalry was simply calculated under the hood, and the only cues we had as to which path we were on were context clues and banter.

But that might have unforeseen implications. Like... confusion and anger when Isabela leaves the party and doesn't come back.

Pretty much. It's a good system, even with its flaws, in that it allows the player to experience content without having to force their characters to agree with all companions all the time.

I can't help but find most of the complains a bit silly, though. Both paths offer interesting content that often differs from eachother and show the same character in a different light... I'm not sure how that's supposed to be bad. Even if you're gunning for Friendship!Anders it's not like his, what, +15 rilvary is the end of the world.

No one said it was, but thats not the point, if you asked a person out in irl and they turned you down, you might feel a little hurt but you would not feel rivalry with that person because of it, there should be an option to let him down gently without earning points in either direction.

I do think that we should have an option to turn Anders down gently, but I also think that you're exaggerating. When I get a + Rilvary I simply assume that the companion dislike what I did... and that's the case here. I turned down Anders, he disliked that, and his feelings were hurt.

That's also true for Zevran, though I personally think that the rejection hurts Anders more, on a personal level, than if you refuse Zevran's sex offer.

[berelinde]

It's a shame that people insisted on equating rivalry with hatred. The rivalry path with some of the characters is a lot of fun. It would be a shame to see that mechanic go away.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character. 

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

You are right I have never had to turn down a guy, but I have turned down girls and you know what, they still liked me afterwards.

[Renmiri1]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

QFT

I suspect me and other women taking the +15 rivalry in stride comes from us being used to reject people. Anders is pretty fine with it compared to some of the guys I had the "pleasure" to meet. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:20 .

[Nomen Mendax]

berelinde wrote...

It's a shame that people insisted on equating rivalry with hatred. The rivalry path with some of the characters is a lot of fun. It would be a shame to see that mechanic go away.

Except, as I mentioned above, that it can't capture hatred.

[Nashiktal]

berelinde wrote...

It's a shame that people insisted on equating rivalry with hatred. The rivalry path with some of the characters is a lot of fun. It would be a shame to see that mechanic go away.

I agree. However its just how most of us gamers are trained to react to BIG RED LETTERS OF DOOM. Rivalry might not necesarrily be bad, (and like you said some of the rivalry paths are fun and interesting.) But the way they are presented made me feel like the awarded points were negative.

I had to fight through my bias to enjoy any sort of rivalry path.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

QFT

I suspect me and other women taking the +15 rivalry in stride comes from us being used to reject people. Anders is pretty fine with it compared to some of the guys I had the "pleasure" to meet. 

Thats strange in my case and my mates when we have been turned down by girls we just moved on to the next one.



That sounds awful doesn't it.

[Dhiro]

DinoSteve wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character. 

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

You are right I have never had to turn down a guy, but I have turned down girls and you know what, they still liked me afterwards.

Anders is not a girl, dearheart. That said, I find that men take rejection way worse than women do, it's a little bit scary.

[holdenagincourt]

Oh look. It's this topic again.

Totally hasn't been done to death for two years or anything.

TheWout wrote...

Also, i stabbed him in the neck for being such a psycho all the time, but modern day journalism would have spun that into a hatecrime

You're an idiot.

[Leanansidhe]

I'm really hoping they don't get rid of the rivalry system.

My favorite romance is a rivalmance with Fenris, as a mage.  What can I say?  I like my irony thick on the ground.

That's something we just couldn't do in Origins.  If Alistair didn't like you, he didn't like you, and that was the end of it. 

In 2, one of the NPC's could disagree with everything you said, but you could still have a relationship with them.

I always wondered why they took the gifts out for the PC, though.  I did enjoy Alistair's rose, but Anders and Fenris had nothing for me, even though I could give them gifts.
Oh well, just keep doing what you're doing, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Dhiro wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character. 

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

You are right I have never had to turn down a guy, but I have turned down girls and you know what, they still liked me afterwards.

Anders is not a girl, dearheart. That said, I find that men take rejection way worse than women do, it's a little bit scary.

I disagree most guys I know take rejection rather well, they just move on to another girl. I know Anders is not a girl, but I don't know what its like to be hit on by a guy, but I have a friend who was hit on by a guy and he just simply said sorry pal I don't swing that way, and guess what he wasn't yelled at or anything.

[Vandicus]

Dhiro wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I think the problem with Anders is you can not just say no I'm sorry I don't swing that way. The only options you are given, is either to romance him or get 15 dislike or whatever it was.

+ 5 rivalry

Rivalry is not the same as dislike.

But the second part of your post contains the answer. You don't like the character. You're looking for a reason to be angry.

Call it what ever you want you still get +15 of it for not romancing Anders and irl someone would not become a rival because the other person would not date them, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with how I feel about the character. 

You have clearly never had to turn down a guy.  Anders' reaction is mild, to my experience. I turn down a guy, I get yelled at, told I need to "loosen up," that I have "sand in my vagina" and that I'm a wh*re, all in one breath.  All because I said no, I'm not interested.  And then they go right on trying to get me to change my mind, as if they didn't just insult me.  +15 rivalry and a mild, if slightly hurt response?  I see nothing to complain about.

You are right I have never had to turn down a guy, but I have turned down girls and you know what, they still liked me afterwards.

Anders is not a girl, dearheart. That said, I find that men take rejection way worse than women do, it's a little bit scary.

Guess it depends who you meet. Guys I know aren't bothered in the least, or they keep on pursuing them like some daft idiot until they get the picture and go emo for a bit. None of them ever reacted particularly nastily as far as I know. As for the girls I've rejected, most of them took it pretty well. On occassion they act passive aggressive for a loooong time(them ladies know how to hold a grudge amirite?) but they've all gotten over it so far. Just took some time.

[Withidread]

DreGregoire wrote...

Less Eager bromance?
A bromance is two males who do things together that are datelike and are close but are not sexually involved with each other... so, I'm not really sure how Anders wanting (by your statement) to be your closest bro has anything to do with him trying to get in your pants.

Definition aside, I would literally pay any amount of money to have the word "bromance" eliminated from the english vocabulary (and any other language it may exist in).

Do what you want with relationships... just please please please please.... use a different word to describe it.

[Vandicus]

Withidread wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Less Eager bromance?
A bromance is two males who do things together that are datelike and are close but are not sexually involved with each other... so, I'm not really sure how Anders wanting (by your statement) to be your closest bro has anything to do with him trying to get in your pants.

Definition aside, I would literally pay any amount of money to have the word "bromance" eliminated from the english vocabulary (and any other language it may exist in).

Do what you want with relationships... just please please please please.... use a different word to describe it.

Warping reality isn't easy. I charge a minimum of 200 grand for such jobs. 

[berelinde]

DinoSteve wrote...

Thats strange in my case and my mates when we have been turned down by girls we just moved on to the next one.



That sounds awful doesn't it.

Especially if they're standing in a row.

Seriously, I've known guys to go to pieces after a rejection, especially if they felt there was some kind of connection. It can literally destroy a friendship.

If I remember correctly, if you are involved with both Alistair and Zevran, you will eventually have to choose between them. The one not chosen racks up *massive* disapproval points.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Thats strange in my case and my mates when we have been turned down by girls we just moved on to the next one.



That sounds awful doesn't it.

Especially if they're standing in a row.

Seriously, I've known guys to go to pieces after a rejection, especially if they felt there was some kind of connection. It can literally destroy a friendship.

If I remember correctly, if you are involved with both Alistair and Zevran, you will eventually have to choose between them. The one not chosen racks up *massive* disapproval points.

I thought you could have a foursome with isabel and them two.

[berelinde]

DinoSteve wrote...

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Thats strange in my case and my mates when we have been turned down by girls we just moved on to the next one.



That sounds awful doesn't it.

Especially if they're standing in a row.

Seriously, I've known guys to go to pieces after a rejection, especially if they felt there was some kind of connection. It can literally destroy a friendship.

If I remember correctly, if you are involved with both Alistair and Zevran, you will eventually have to choose between them. The one not chosen racks up *massive* disapproval points.

I thought you could have a foursome with isabel and them two.

Nope. I tried it last playthrough. Hardened Alistair is on board with an Isabela threesome, but Zevran bows out.

Wow. Try reading *that* with your mind in the gutter!

[SamaraDraven]

berelinde wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Thats strange in my case and my mates when we have been turned down by girls we just moved on to the next one.



That sounds awful doesn't it.

Especially if they're standing in a row.

Seriously, I've known guys to go to pieces after a rejection, especially if they felt there was some kind of connection. It can literally destroy a friendship.

If I remember correctly, if you are involved with both Alistair and Zevran, you will eventually have to choose between them. The one not chosen racks up *massive* disapproval points.

For some reason, this line started Zazu, in my head, singing "I've a lovelly bunch of coconuts... dee de-de... there they are a-standing in a row.... Big ones, small ones, some the size of your head!"