269 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry. It doesn't state that all. All the brat tells us is that it thought the plans were eradicated. It didn't tell who did that.

You are just being stubborn now. "We had thought the concept eradicated a few cycles ago" somehow opens the door for "maybe it wasn't the Reapers guys!"

Conspiracy theories are powerful, indeed.

You can try to add negative traits to my reasoning, like being stubburn or accuse me of dreaming up a conspiracy. It's a cheap attemp to invalidate the arguments. That doesn't work with me, sir. You have to do better than that

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...
Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

That's more believable than Gandalf not having the Eagles fly the Ring to Mount Doom.

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

That's more believable than Gandalf not having the Eagles fly the Ring to Mount Doom.

Maybe Sauron had AAA stationed at Mount Doom, and your argument is meaningless in the face of my point.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Plot armor exists in 95% of action based games/movies. It's unavoidable. Cinematic fight scenes are far more interesting than the real deal. Besides, Shepard got plot armor in ME1 and ME2. Why would be any different in ME3?

Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

1.
http://masseffect.wi..._Prothean_Ruins 

01/10/2011 - Scientists on Mars Assess New Chamber in Prothean Ruins[/i]“Controversy brews tonight as scientists on Mars assess the contents of a newly opened chamber in the Prothean ruins. The opening has been a dream of exoarchaeologists for decades, delayed by the many steps necessary to replicate Prothean code keys and crack the cryptography for entry. Critics say the Milky Way Foundation, which provided supercomputers for the cryptanalysis, could hoard any Prothean discoveries. Dr. Unira T'Lam, liaison from the Citadel Committee on Paleotechnology, says she's been kept in the dark. "Foundation personnel have orchestrated a security system that keeps out everyone except a select cabal," she accuses. "Anything could be taken from inside and we'd never know." Dr. Ilsa Warren, who heads the analysis unit, dismisses the allegation. "We've made it clear all technology stays in situ throughout the cataloging and analysis process, which could take years," she says. "Dr. T'Lam's fears would be more appropriate closer to the end of the decade."”



2. We well know the prothean layed many thing for use to find to help with the reapers. It not vague that we find info on a device that help use fight the reapers form them.

3. Lotsb hints at it anyway.
4.Javik comferms it.

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

No, it doesn't. And since you didn't bother to go any deeper than that, neither will I.

Unfortuantly it does, there's ample material on the Internet and on BSN that backs up my statement.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

That's more believable than Gandalf not having the Eagles fly the Ring to Mount Doom.

Maybe Sauron had AAA stationed at Mount Doom, and your argument is meaningless in the face of my point.

I'm sorry, you point countered by the fact you never made one.

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You can try to add negative traits to my reasoning, like being stubburn or accuse me of dreaming up a conspiracy. It's a cheap attemp to invalidate the arguments. That doesn't work with me, sir. You have to do better than that

I don't have to do better than that. You do, because you are the one positing an alternate take on an established fact. Explain who or what would be responsible for destroying the Crucible concept during the Reaper cycle if not the Reapers.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi..._Prothean_Ruins 

01/10/2011 - Scientists on Mars Assess New Chamber in Prothean Ruins[/i]“Controversy brews tonight as scientists on Mars assess the contents of a newly opened chamber in the Prothean ruins. The opening has been a dream of exoarchaeologists for decades, delayed by the many steps necessary to replicate Prothean code keys and crack the cryptography for entry. Critics say the Milky Way Foundation, which provided supercomputers for the cryptanalysis, could hoard any Prothean discoveries. Dr. Unira T'Lam, liaison from the Citadel Committee on Paleotechnology, says she's been kept in the dark. "Foundation personnel have orchestrated a security system that keeps out everyone except a select cabal," she accuses. "Anything could be taken from inside and we'd never know." Dr. Ilsa Warren, who heads the analysis unit, dismisses the allegation. "We've made it clear all technology stays in situ throughout the cataloging and analysis process, which could take years," she says. "Dr. T'Lam's fears would be more appropriate closer to the end of the decade."”

Contrived, Retcon.

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...


Maybe Sauron had AAA stationed at Mount Doom, and your argument is meaningless in the face of my point.

My argument is only meaningless if you do not believe Tolkien was a good writer. Many believe him to be one of the best, and yet there is a glaring contrivance in the narrative that is far more important than any single contrivance in ME3.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry. It doesn't state that all. All the brat tells us is that it thought the plans were eradicated. It didn't tell who did that.

You are just being stubborn now. "We had thought the concept eradicated a few cycles ago" somehow opens the door for "maybe it wasn't the Reapers guys!"

Conspiracy theories are powerful, indeed.

You can try to add negative traits to my reasoning, like being stubburn or accuse me of dreaming up a conspiracy. It's a cheap attemp to invalidate the arguments. That doesn't work with me, sir. You have to do better than that

But it does invalidates you arguement. You saying the reaper planned the crucible but the reaper them selve said they did not. Added you have no proof that they did plan it.

You have no proof to support you.

[AngryFrozenWater]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You can try to add negative traits to my reasoning, like being stubburn or accuse me of dreaming up a conspiracy. It's a cheap attemp to invalidate the arguments. That doesn't work with me, sir. You have to do better than that

I don't have to do better than that. You do, because you are the one positing an alternate take on an established fact. Explain who or what would be responsible for destroying the Crucible concept during the Reaper cycle if not the Reapers.

No I don't. I am trying to have a friendly conversation here. Don't make it unpleasant.

You assume that the brat and/or the reapers destroyed the plans for the Crucible. But there is no proof of that. We simply don't know who destroyed those.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

My argument is only meaningless if you do not believe Tolkien was a good writer. Many believe him to be one of the best, and yet there is a glaring contrivance in the narrative that is far more important than any single contrivance in ME3.

Except when it's the entire premise of the third game, and it's not the only thing.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi..._Prothean_Ruins 

01/10/2011 - Scientists on Mars Assess New Chamber in Prothean Ruins[/i]“Controversy brews tonight as scientists on Mars assess the contents of a newly opened chamber in the Prothean ruins. The opening has been a dream of exoarchaeologists for decades, delayed by the many steps necessary to replicate Prothean code keys and crack the cryptography for entry. Critics say the Milky Way Foundation, which provided supercomputers for the cryptanalysis, could hoard any Prothean discoveries. Dr. Unira T'Lam, liaison from the Citadel Committee on Paleotechnology, says she's been kept in the dark. "Foundation personnel have orchestrated a security system that keeps out everyone except a select cabal," she accuses. "Anything could be taken from inside and we'd never know." Dr. Ilsa Warren, who heads the analysis unit, dismisses the allegation. "We've made it clear all technology stays in situ throughout the cataloging and analysis process, which could take years," she says. "Dr. T'Lam's fears would be more appropriate closer to the end of the decade."”

Contrived, Retcon.

Do you even understand what a recon is? That's not it. More info coming up into a story is not a retcon. That like saying finding out the mass relays were build by the reapers instead of the protheans is a retcon.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

My argument is only meaningless if you do not believe Tolkien was a good writer. Many believe him to be one of the best, and yet there is a glaring contrivance in the narrative that is far more important than any single contrivance in ME3.

Except when it's the entire premise of the third game, and it's not the only thing.

No, you think that wahy because you ignaoring everything that prove you wrong.

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

No, it doesn't. And since you didn't bother to go any deeper than that, neither will I.

Unfortuantly it does, there's ample material on the Internet and on BSN that backs up my statement.

95% of that material deals with the original endings, not the entirety of ME3 which, perhaps you do not remember, many lauded as being "perfect" until the endings on this same board.

[Netsfn1427]

Fixers0 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Plot armor exists in 95% of action based games/movies. It's unavoidable. Cinematic fight scenes are far more interesting than the real deal. Besides, Shepard got plot armor in ME1 and ME2. Why would be any different in ME3?

Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

That's not plot armor. I'm referring to the fact that Shepard can have 20 collectors shooting at him/her and miraculously not get taken down. Scenes like the escape from the Collector base exist to build drama and look cool. But they're not realistic. The point is, I don't really care because I'm not expecting hyper-realism from a game where my character's decision to spare someone or not somehow affects their cybernetics and alters their appearence. 

And Shepard surviving everything he/she has been through, including being ressurrected, is even less realistic than finding the Crucible data. There's plenty of things that people have in musuems that are later found to have information not found before. That the alliance hadn't shifted through everything they'd found about the Protheans, especially when they may not have understood everything they'd found, is not that crazy. 

But I don't have a problem with most of the craziness in the game. Things that bother me are things that cannot be rationalized away, like the Illusive Man being able to control Shepard's actions in the final confrontation on the Citadel. 

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

My argument is only meaningless if you do not believe Tolkien was a good writer. Many believe him to be one of the best, and yet there is a glaring contrivance in the narrative that is far more important than any single contrivance in ME3.

Except when it's the entire premise of the third game, and it's not the only thing.

Even if you believe that, the LotR contrivance is the premise of the entire trilogy, so I'm still right.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you even understand what a recon is? That's not it. More info coming up into a story is not a retcon. That like saying finding out the mass relays were build by the reapers instead of the protheans is a retcon.

"Retroactive continuity (retcon for short)[1] is the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work"

Mass Effect 1: established a ''small data cache''
Mass Effect 3 changed this to ''archives''

What´s not to understand here.

And it´s still contrived.

Modifié par Fixers0, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You can try to add negative traits to my reasoning, like being stubburn or accuse me of dreaming up a conspiracy. It's a cheap attemp to invalidate the arguments. That doesn't work with me, sir. You have to do better than that

I don't have to do better than that. You do, because you are the one positing an alternate take on an established fact. Explain who or what would be responsible for destroying the Crucible concept during the Reaper cycle if not the Reapers.

No I don't. I am trying to have a friendly conversation here. Don't make it unpleasant.

You assume that the brat and/or the reapers destroyed the plans for the Crucible. But there is no proof of that. We simply don't know who destroyed those.

The is als noproof that they planned the crucible , yet your say they did. The only witness is the catalyst. Based on how the crucible is build and how the catalyst thinks, it clear they would never plann it.

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Even if you believe that, the LotR contrivance is the premise of the entire trilogy, so I'm still right.

No because it´s still contrived, which still makes it bad writing.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you even understand what a recon is? That's not it. More info coming up into a story is not a retcon. That like saying finding out the mass relays were build by the reapers instead of the protheans is a retcon.

"Retroactive continuity (retcon for short)[1] is the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work"

Mass Effect 1: established a ''small data cache''
Mass Effect 3 changed this to ''archives''

What´s not to understand here=

And it´s still contrived.

It an issue of finding more info , more data, and places. AKA, a chnaging world and universe.

Saying this is a retcon is like say the reaper built the mass relay is a retcon to the statement the prothean built it. They found more info on mars that lead to finding more chambers. That not a retcon, that just adding more info.

It would be like saying Mordin recons what Wrex stated in ME1.
Or the geth having two factions in ME2 retcon the fact the geth are enemies in ME1.

This called achanging universe and add info.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...


No because it´s still contrived, which still makes it bad writing.

I meant that the LotR contrivance is more important than the ME3 mars archive one.

And contrivance alone is not enough to make something bad writing, sorry.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

Saying this is a retcon is like say the reaper built the mass relay is a retcon to the statement the prothean built it. They found more info on mars that lead to finding more chambers. That not a retcon, that just adding more info.

Not seeing any arguments here, prestablished facts were changed in different work of fiction, namely Mass Effect 1 establishes and Mass Effect 3 changes.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Saying this is a retcon is like say the reaper built the mass relay is a retcon to the statement the prothean built it. They found more info on mars that lead to finding more chambers. That not a retcon, that just adding more info.

Not seeing any arguments here, prestablished facts were changed in different work of fiction, namely Mass Effect 1 establishes and Mass Effect 3 changes.

Let me be more clear for you,...
Saying this is a retcon is like say the reaper built the mass relay is a retcon to the statement the prothean built it. They found more info on mars that lead to finding more chambers. That not a retcon, that just adding more info.

It would be like saying Mordin recons what Wrex stated in ME1.
Or the geth having two factions in ME2 retcon the fact the geth are enemies in ME1.

This called a changing universe and add info. This happens all the time in real life.

Nothing in ME1 ever stated that it was not possible more archies were on mars, and more would not be found. And if the found more archives it does not retcon the fact they found more before.

Retcons conflict with previous stated lore. This doesnot conflict with anything because nothing states it was impossible to find any more prothean archives on Mars.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I meant that the LotR contrivance is more important than the ME3 mars archive one.

Conjecture.

CronoDragoon wrote...
And contrivance alone is not enough to make something bad writing, sorry.

Unfortuantly, it does.