269 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...
The reason why the specific example you gave isn't in the game, I imagine, is because it starts to tailor an ending based on an earlier choice. Like if the only way EDI or synthetics could live was if you saved the Geth. It could certainly be explained away in game.I'm not opposed to a decision you made at the 1/3rd point changing things.  But it does something Bioware's had shown no inclination of doing so far.  It's just not what they like to do.

Yep. From some of Gaider's posts, it's because a substantial majority of players don't replay the games. So Bio doesn't want to lock anyone out of major content because of early choices. This is what they've always done. In ME2, blow off someone's LM and... .well, maybe that character gets killed, and you don't get the post-SM conversation. In KotOR, nothing you do matters once you leave the planet, except for going DS which gives you a few different cutscenes and leaves the rest of the endgame exactly the same.

It isn't stated that the Crucible isn't operating at full strength.

Well, the Catalyst does say that the Crucible is "mostly intact"  or some such in high EMS situations. I don't know what the low EMS line is. But it's pretty clear that the thing can be fired on and damaged.

At low ems he says the crucible is damaged.

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

But the damage still does effect what the crucible does. That's my point.

[CronoDragoon]

LucasShark wrote...

1) spelling and gramar are your friends

Stop throwing stones, bro. It isn't even a typo since you've done it more than once.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

I think the same way, but in high EMS the Starbrat says the crucible is largely intacted, which means it either got damaged or its not complete. And it does sound like he scolds you in low EMS

it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

[Netsfn1427]

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

Unlikely. The Catalyst doesn't achieve it's directive in two of the three choices. In Destroy it's convinced that what it was designed to prevent will occur in the future, so it's failed. In Control, it's being replaced by someone it thinks will not do its job as effectively. The only ending choice the Catalyst approves of is Synthesis, which is the "hardest" option to get. If it were the easiest option, then maybe this might make sense. 

[Netsfn1427]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

I think the same way, but in high EMS the Starbrat says the crucible is largely intacted, which means it either got damaged or its not complete. And it does sound like he scolds you in low EMS

it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

I think it would make sense if it was capable of ending the cycle in the way the Catalyst wished. If the only choice was Synthesis, there might be something to it. The Catalyst doesn't care about survival, it cares about the fulfillment of it's programming. If it had to "die" to fulfill it's programming, it would. 

But since two of the three options involve the Catalyst failing in its directive and those two options are the easiest to get, it's highly unlikely the Catalyst approves of the Crucible.

[CronoDragoon]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Are people just upset that Bioware pulled back the curtain for ME3? Cause seriously, it's always been there. 

People are choosing to focus on the numbers instead of the story. There is a huge story difference in curing the genophage and not. By itself. Period. As for whether or not it wildly affects Earth....how could it? I hope no one is suggesting that one side gets punished for choosing something compared to the other.

[Vigilant111]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

I'm going to admit, I don't understand your point. EMS plays a role in the ending. You may not like the role it plays, but it does influence the ending. So Dreman is right in that regard. You can say that EMS doesn't do enough, but you can't say that EMS means nothing. It's factually incorrect. 

The game isn't replaced with numbers any more than most other Bioware games. The storylines involving Shep and his/her allies are there for emotional impact first and foremost. But it's a game too, so they had to reward your choices somehow. Hence, EMS. Bioware then went further and set it up so that you wouldn't be prevented from choosing a specific ending if you played Paragon/Renegade. As AlanC9 and I have said repeatedly, this is the exact same as every other Bioware game. The only difference is that it's shown in this game opposed to other games. 

Are people just upset that Bioware pulled back the curtain for ME3? Cause seriously, it's always been there. 

Now you are just confirming that none of the choices you made in the past mattered, its like you now have the golden key to open every door.

The ending of ME3 is supposed to reflect the choices you made throughout the whole trilogy, you bare only the consequences of what has occurred before, but now you are baring consequences of a decision made on a piece of information given to you at the last ten minutes, and you cannot even verify if this information is truthful since this information is not drawn from the game

The ending is done in this way because it is necessary, because it doesn't fit the story, they attached some extra issue of which your past decisions could not account for, that is why the ending is so open ended, and that is why a lot of things did not show up pre-EC

Modifié par Vigilant111, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

[Vigilant111]

dreman9999 wrote...
it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

Well, maybe it overestimated the attractiveness of synthesis. Look, logic is not Catalyst's best friend, we have no idea why the Catalyst does this or does that or why doesn't it activate security protocol when the Crucible is about to dock.

[dreman9999]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

I think the same way, but in high EMS the Starbrat says the crucible is largely intacted, which means it either got damaged or its not complete. And it does sound like he scolds you in low EMS

it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

I think it would make sense if it was capable of ending the cycle in the way the Catalyst wished. If the only choice was Synthesis, there might be something to it. The Catalyst doesn't care about survival, it cares about the fulfillment of it's programming. If it had to "die" to fulfill it's programming, it would. 

But since two of the three options involve the Catalyst failing in its directive and those two options are the easiest to get, it's highly unlikely the Catalyst approves of the Crucible.

I know it doesnot care about servival but it only care if theproblem is solved and nothing more. Adding in a destroy choice means adding a way for it's plans not to be solve. It even veiw destory as a choice that doesn't solve anythingbecause it points out the problem it will start again. If the reaper planned the crucible, it would not havea destoy opinion being that they want to perserve.

Added, the catalyst would not plan something it did not aprove of.

The crucible is pure organic being planning.

[Star fury]

Yeah, I'd rather agree. So I play renegade Shepard who hates batarians and has a grudge against Geth(and wants to wipe them out to make a house to his beloved Tali). But Geth are actually the most powerful faction and hold highest EMS.

It really influences our decisions and hinders roleplaying.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

Well, maybe it overestimated the attractiveness of synthesis. Look, logic is not Catalyst's best friend, we have no idea why the Catalyst does this or does that or why doesn't it activate security protocol when the Crucible is about to dock.

The catalyst is using logic. The problem here is that you not understanding the ground of it's logic. Think of it like a calulator that has an mistake for it make that has the number 2 button only cue 1's on the calulator. That would mean what was imputed into the calulator is an error.

It's a machine doing what it programed to do. It creators are the one that madethe error in it system, it just blindly fallowing the error.

It logic is one of a being thinking in absolutes. This means what it's doing is a difference of defination and translation.
It sees presering all life as one way, we see it as another. Just because how it see perserving life is differnt form how we see it does not make it wrong or lacking logic.
It just makes it different.

As Legions said:
We say" 2+2=4"
the heritics say "2+1=3"

[Netsfn1427]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Now you are just confirming that none of the choices you made in the past matter, its like you now have the golden key to open every door.

The ending of ME3 is supposed to reflect the choices you made throughout the whole trilogy, you bare only the consequences of what has occurred before, but now you are baring consequences of a decision made on a piece of information given to you at the last ten minutes, and you cannot even verify if this information is truthful since this information is not drawn from the game

The ending is done in this way because it is necessary, because it doesn't fit the story, they attached some extra issue of which your past decisions could not account for, that is why the ending is so open ended, and that is why a lot of things did not show pre-EC

I've never denied that at all. For gameplay purposes, it doesn't matter. For story purposes, it does. As for the ending, it matters indirectly. Again, this is the formula for every Bioware game I've ever played. KOTOR, Jade Empire, the ME games, both Dragon Age games. It's the exact same. The primary ending of the game does not change based on anything you do prior to that last fork in the road about 2 hours before the end. In ME 1 and 3, it's a choice made in the final 10 minutes of gameplay. The only difference is that your choice in ME1 is followed by a boss fight whereas in 3, it's followed by the ending. 

I feel the ending fits fine. You can argue that Synthesis has no real foreshadowing, which is fine, but Control and Destroy do. No, it isn't directly impacted by your decision to cure the Genophage, or how you handled Quarian Geth relations. But like I said, that's no different than anything else before it. So I guess I'm a bit confused as to what you wanted. Did you want to be locked out of a choice based on an earlier decision? Or did you want a single ending with many variations based on EMS and in game choices?

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

Well, maybe it overestimated the attractiveness of synthesis. Look, logic is not Catalyst's best friend, we have no idea why the Catalyst does this or does that or why doesn't it activate security protocol when the Crucible is about to dock.

The catalyst is using logic. The problem here is that you not understanding the ground of it's logic. Think of it like a calulator that has an mistake for it make that has the number 2 button only cue 1's on the calulator. That would mean what was imputed into the calulator is an error.

It's a machine doing what it programed to do. It creators are the one that madethe error in it system, it just blindly fallowing the error.

It logic is one of a being thinking in absolutes. This means what it's doing is a difference of defination and translation.
It sees presering all life as one way, we see it as another. Just because how it see perserving life is differnt form how we see it does not make it wrong or lacking logic.
It just makes it different.

As Legions said:
We say" 2+2=4"
the heritics say "2+1=3"

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

[AngryFrozenWater]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

[dreman9999]

Star fury wrote...

Yeah, I'd rather agree. So I play renegade Shepard who hates batarians and has a grudge against Geth(and wants to wipe them out to make a house to his beloved Tali). But Geth are actually the most powerful faction and hold highest EMS.

It really influences our decisions and hinders roleplaying.

What? the at not what the op is saying.
The op is say it doesn't matter if we kill the geth or not, we can get what ever ems ammount for the mp or some where else. And that make choice pointless.

He/she want it so that the choice you make have dramatic consiquences. AKA, Saving the geth would be the only to get the ems need to beat the reapers.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He didn't want it to dock.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:13 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
it makes no sense for the reapers to uild a divice that can change them or destroy them.

Well, maybe it overestimated the attractiveness of synthesis. Look, logic is not Catalyst's best friend, we have no idea why the Catalyst does this or does that or why doesn't it activate security protocol when the Crucible is about to dock.

The catalyst is using logic. The problem here is that you not understanding the ground of it's logic. Think of it like a calulator that has an mistake for it make that has the number 2 button only cue 1's on the calulator. That would mean what was imputed into the calulator is an error.

It's a machine doing what it programed to do. It creators are the one that madethe error in it system, it just blindly fallowing the error.

It logic is one of a being thinking in absolutes. This means what it's doing is a difference of defination and translation.
It sees presering all life as one way, we see it as another. Just because how it see perserving life is differnt form how we see it does not make it wrong or lacking logic.
It just makes it different.

As Legions said:
We say" 2+2=4"
the heritics say "2+1=3"

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

[Netsfn1427]

Star fury wrote...

Yeah, I'd rather agree. So I play renegade Shepard who hates batarians and has a grudge against Geth(and wants to wipe them out to make a house to his beloved Tali). But Geth are actually the most powerful faction and hold highest EMS.

It really influences our decisions and hinders roleplaying.

That's the point of the EMS system. I believe that you can still get the highest required EMS Post-EC without the Geth, though admittedly, I haven't looked this up to be certain. 

However, it gets harder to do it. So does your Shepard want to hold a grudge, or does he/she want to focus primarily on the war with the Reapers? You're free to continue your grudge with the Geth if you like. You'll just have to figure out a way to make up what they would have provided.

Though with Destroy, you can get the Geth to help and off them... so seems like you can still get what you want. 

[CronoDragoon]

dreman9999 wrote...

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Did or did not? Post seems to support "did not"?

[dreman9999]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Did or did not? Post seems to support "did not"?

Sorry, I mean didn't.

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

Everything you wrote is speculation of events with no stated goal or purpose. I have an actual quote from the Catalyst saying he thought he had eradicated the very concept of the Crucible but failed. That means he doesn't want it to dock.

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Nope. Look at space the next time you visit the brat's penthouse. There are reapers flying around there close nearby. Look at the end sequences. Reapers on Earth are hit by the waves, which suggest that more are nearby.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI