269 réponses à ce sujet

[Netsfn1427]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

Nothing in game backs up what you're saying. In fact, everything we're told in game contradicts it. There's no proof that the Reapers could just blast through the largest fleet the galaxy has ever assembled instantaneously. They'll win eventually, but it still takes some time to ground them down.

Besides, what you're really arguing against is plot armor. That's like trying to argue Shepard survives Harbinger's beam because Harbinger wanted him to succeed. No, Shepard survived the beam because story said he/she had to. The Crucible docks because the story said it had to. It's really not any more complex than that. 

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

But it means that strictly speaking he IS an AI, going by his own metaphor. It just so happens that the things that make him distinguishable from other AI are very significant.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Nope. Look at space the next time you vist the brat's penthouse. There are reapers flying around there close nearby. Look at the end sequences. Reapers on Earth are hit by the waves, which suggest that more are nearby.

Yes, blowing up a divice that can genorate a massive amount of energy near something that works like a mass reaper is a great idea. 
I mean it would not blow up th entire system if the reapers did that.

[dreman9999]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

But it means that strictly speaking he IS an AI, going by his own metaphor. It just so happens that the things that make him distinguishable from other AI are very significant.

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only person to see that.

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

But it means that strictly speaking he IS an AI, going by his own metaphor. It just so happens that the things that make him distinguishable from other AI are very significant.

I'm not saying he isn't an AI, I'm saying he's might be capable of doing more than what he led on

[AngryFrozenWater]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

Exactly. If "just an animal" wasn't sarcasm then the attitude probably came from its creators, who thought that the other organics were just thralls from which tribute flows. The so called lesser races.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

But it means that strictly speaking he IS an AI, going by his own metaphor. It just so happens that the things that make him distinguishable from other AI are very significant.

I'm not saying he isn't an AI, I'm saying he's might be capable of doing more than what he led on

Not with the crucible. It's clear he has no control over what it does out side of synthesis. 

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

"I'm as much an AI as you are an animal"

We are animals...Just advanced animals. Your point?

really? The Catalyst states in a metaphor that Shepard is more than just an animal which means he's more than just an AI

Exactly. If "just an animal" wasn't sarcasm then the attitude probably came from its creators, who thought that the other organics were just thralls from which tribute flows. The so called lesser races.

That is not what it means. We are animals.

[Fixers0]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Besides, what you're really arguing against is plot armor. That's like trying to argue Shepard survives Harbinger's beam because Harbinger wanted him to succeed. No, Shepard survived the beam because story said he/she had to. The Crucible docks because the story said it had to. It's really not any more complex than that. 

We've actually got a brilliant word for that: Contrivance, it's something a writer better should avoid. 

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Besides, what you're really arguing against is plot armor. That's like trying to argue Shepard survives Harbinger's beam because Harbinger wanted him to succeed. No, Shepard survived the beam because story said he/she had to. The Crucible docks because the story said it had to. It's really not any more complex than that. 

We've actually got a brilliant word for that: Contrivance, it's something a writer better should avoid. 

Plot armor is something no writer can avoid.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Nope. Look at space the next time you vist the brat's penthouse. There are reapers flying around there close nearby. Look at the end sequences. Reapers on Earth are hit by the waves, which suggest that more are nearby.

Yes, blowing up a divice that can genorate a massive amount of energy near something that works like a mass reaper is a great idea. 
I mean it would not blow up th entire system if the reapers did that.

Nah. You don't know that. But even if that was the case then my other points still stand.

Edit: Another possibility would be to destroy part of the Citadel. Just enough to make docking impossible. The brat is smart enough. It would have found a "solution". Ghehe.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Besides, what you're really arguing against is plot armor. That's like trying to argue Shepard survives Harbinger's beam because Harbinger wanted him to succeed. No, Shepard survived the beam because story said he/she had to. The Crucible docks because the story said it had to. It's really not any more complex than that. 

We've actually got a brilliant word for that: Contrivance, it's something a writer better should avoid. 

Plot armor is something no writer can avoid.

They could've at least attempted to do.

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nah. You don't know that. But even if that was the case then my other points still stand.

None of your points matter so long as you don't deal with the fact that the Catalyst flat-out tells us he has been trying to destroy the Crucible, and even thought he succeeded a few cycles ago.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

But it means that strictly speaking he IS an AI, going by his own metaphor. It just so happens that the things that make him distinguishable from other AI are very significant.

I'm not saying he isn't an AI, I'm saying he's might be capable of doing more than what he led on

Not with the crucible. It's clear he has no control over what it does out side of synthesis. 

what does that has to do with him being able to lie?

[AngryFrozenWater]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nah. You don't know that. But even if that was the case then my other points still stand.

None of your points matter so long as you don't deal with the fact that the Catalyst flat-out tells us he has been trying to destroy the Crucible, and even thought he succeeded a few cycles ago.

Sorry. It doesn't state that all. All the brat tells us is that it thought the plans were eradicated. It didn't tell who did that.

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

They could've at least attempted to do.

Well yeah, they could have done better. That doesn't mean they aren't good writers. Every writer has room to improve.

[Netsfn1427]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Besides, what you're really arguing against is plot armor. That's like trying to argue Shepard survives Harbinger's beam because Harbinger wanted him to succeed. No, Shepard survived the beam because story said he/she had to. The Crucible docks because the story said it had to. It's really not any more complex than that. 

We've actually got a brilliant word for that: Contrivance, it's something a writer better should avoid. 

Plot armor is something no writer can avoid.

They could've at least attempted to do.

Plot armor exists in 95% of action based games/movies. It's unavoidable. Cinematic fight scenes are far more interesting than the real deal. Besides, Shepard got plot armor in ME1 and ME2. Why would be any different in ME3?

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sorry. It doesn't state that all. All the brat tells us is that it thought the plans were eradicated. It didn't tell who did that.

You are just being stubborn now. "We had thought the concept eradicated a few cycles ago" somehow opens the door for "maybe it wasn't the Reapers guys!"

Conspiracy theories are powerful, indeed.

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well yeah, they could have done better. That doesn't mean they aren't good writers. Every writer has room to improve.

The Narrative of Mass Effect 3 contradicts the bolded statment.

[AngryFrozenWater]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

They could've at least attempted to do.

Well yeah, they could have done better. That doesn't mean they aren't good writers. Every writer has room to improve.

I don't accept that argument. It is brought into the discussion whenever it suits the poster's reasoning. Therefor I have to take the writers seriously.

[Fixers0]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Plot armor exists in 95% of action based games/movies. It's unavoidable. Cinematic fight scenes are far more interesting than the real deal. Besides, Shepard got plot armor in ME1 and ME2. Why would be any different in ME3?

Any writer should do their best to avoid obvious contrivance in their narrative, if Shepard is able to surive many firefights because s/he's one of the most competent marines in the Systems Alliance then so be it, If vague device that could eradicate the Reapers is extracted after 30 years from "a small data cache", in " biosciences observation post", then that's a lot harder to make it believable.

Modifié par Fixers0, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[CronoDragoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't accept that argument. It is brought into the discussion whenever it suits the poster's reasoning. Therefor I have to take the writers seriously.

Plot armor exists as a legitimate reason for things to happen in stories. Your acceptance of this literary term is not needed.

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well yeah, they could have done better. That doesn't mean they aren't good writers. Every writer has room to improve.

The Narrative of Mass Effect 3 contradicts the bolded statment.

No, it doesn't. And since you didn't bother to go any deeper than that, neither will I.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the crucible is damaged regardless of EMS, but not severely damaged in high EMS

Does this confirm my suspicion that the Crucible is really a reaper device designed to serve Catalyst's purpose rather than to serve the people who built it? Because it looks like reapers have deliberately let it through

There is more to suggest just that. If I look at the Crucible the three devices, to interface with the Crucible and an organic, are standing on a plaform specifically created for docking. The moment the three options become available, i.e. just after the talk with the brat, you'll notice that the left and right bridges slowly connect to the left and right input devices. Those massive bridges are part of the Citadel and are not an integral part of the Crucible. That suggest that the brat was planning the docking of Crucible.

This doesn't mesh with what the Catalyst says. Shepard asks him why they didn't try to destroy the Crucible, and he responds that he had thought the Reapers succeeded in eradicating the concept a few cycles prior, but that organics are more resilient than he realized. He doesn't want the Crucible to dock.

Nah. The brat wants the Crucible to dock. There are a huge number of reapers out there and all the brat had to do was whistle to order a couple of reapers to destroy it. The brat didn't do so. It's not that the Crucible entered Sol by surprise. As a matter of fact the brat helped Shepard upstairs with an elevator and the brat also connected the two bridges on time, just after they finished their talk. It's all very convenient. That makes it really hard to argue that the brat was a victim of the Crucible. Besides, a weapon does not need the consent of the victim to fire it.

You do understand the crucible came into the system afterharbinger pulled out and the allied forces are holding the reaper at bay , right?
He did want it to dock.

Nope. Look at space the next time you vist the brat's penthouse. There are reapers flying around there close nearby. Look at the end sequences. Reapers on Earth are hit by the waves, which suggest that more are nearby.

Yes, blowing up a divice that can genorate a massive amount of energy near something that works like a mass reaper is a great idea. 
I mean it would not blow up th entire system if the reapers did that.

Nah. You don't know that. But even if that was the case then my other points still stand.

Edit: Another possibility would be to destroy part of the Citadel. Just enough to make docking impossible. The brat is smart enough. It would have found a "solution". Ghehe.

Yes, we do. We know the citadeal is a mass realy. And you not gettingthatthe reapers don't want to damage the citael.

[Netsfn1427]

Fixers0 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well yeah, they could have done better. That doesn't mean they aren't good writers. Every writer has room to improve.

The Narrative of Mass Effect 3 contradicts the bolded statment.

Opinion. My opinion is that the writing in ME3 is better than the first two. Better character development, better dialogue and more interesting and impactful storylines. Of course, you could be saying the writing isn't great in the first two games either. Which again is opinion. 

If you're arguing that the writing is technically flawed in some way, I'll point back to the fact that it merely follows the formula of all the Bioware games that have come before it.