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[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Women have asked for big, strapping manly men on these forums and no one has batted an eye. It's only when someone asks for big, strapping women that people comment on it being odd, unusual, or a fetish. 

There's plenty of eye batting when women make requests for manly men, especially when they start categorizing their current selection of guys as "whiny."  There's much in the way of borderline-gross stuff going on when it comes to romance options, no matter what gender of player or subject of desire.  I wouldn't say it's a rule, and it isn't in this thread, but it's certainly common enough to be a thing.

Fetish, I'd argue, need not apply as a term exclusively to something someone finds deviant or unusual, only arousing, unless we're at a psych conference.  That's how I interpreted the use of the term in this case.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that David has previously made remarks about not getting the appeal of a dwarf romance, I think it's safe to say that he prefers a certain narrow range of bodies and sees expressions of desire for bodies outside of that range as 'weird.'

Orrrr we can read what he actually wrote, which is to draw a distinction between a desire to write a romance based on cultural or dramatic potential and writing a romance based on the fact some folks thinks a particular body type is hot.  

That isn't a judgmental statement, it just means it's not exactly an appealing invitation creatively. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 octobre 2012 - 12:22 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Read again.

You like garrus because you got to know him. I wasnt saying that personality cant win someone over, In fact i think personility is key to people finding interest in eachother. However, to deny that attraction isnt a key component to being interested in someone is absurd. Getting to know a romanceble Kossith is what people are asking for. Why are they asking? Because they found her attractive. Is that wrong? That is subjective.

So what i am saying is Physical Attraction draws intrest in personality. Maybe you found Kaidin was more atttractive then Garrus, but as you got to know both you realized you liked Garrus more.

We do not know how a Female Kossith actually feels (inside her mind) about romance, getting to know her as a companion might provide that information. Essentially, beyond being attracted, that is what players are asking for. If that's a fetish, then I guess i have a fetish for women, in particular, women who i want to know more about because I like how they looked.

[garrusfan1]

Freshlstay well said

[upsettingshorts]

@FreshIstay I don't think anyone is saying that position is inherently unreasonable.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 octobre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Blastback]

I'd be happy to have one as a companion. The Qunari are intresting, and I would like to interact with them more, to see other elements of their culture. Other sides.

[KainD]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

KainD wrote...

I like horny women.

Not helping.

i just won't lie, I like Kossith appearence, and I would find such a romance sexy, I sure don't want to romance a QUNARI, I don't like Qunari at all. I want to romance a KOSSITH, as this thread suggests. I also like mages, so if she would be a Tal'Vasho Saarebas it would be perfect. 

This doesn't NOT however mean in any way that I don't care for her to character. I want her to be interesting and well written. 

[bloodmage13]

I think a Kossith romance option would bring something new to the series. It irritates me that so many companions look like anime characters

[Versus Omnibus]

KainD wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

KainD wrote...

I like horny women.

Not helping.

i just won't lie, I like Kossith appearence, and I would find such a romance sexy, I sure don't want to romance a QUNARI, I don't like Qunari at all. I want to romance a KOSSITH, as this thread suggests. I also like mages, so if she would be a Tal'Vasho Saarebas it would be perfect. 

This doesn't NOT however mean in any way that I don't care for her to character. I want her to be interesting and well written. 

Be sure to make your posts sound more legit next time. Gaider already appears to be against a female Kossith LI and if we really want such a character, we have to show him that's indeed what we want: a female Kossith with a backstory that can be romanced; not eye candy.

[BlueMagitek]

Do Qunari even have romance?

Now, I wouldn't mind a Qunari for a companion, but we need more dwarves first.

[PinkysPain]

Versus Omnibus wrote...
Be sure to make your posts sound more legit next time. Gaider already appears to be against a female Kossith LI and if we really want such a character, we have to show him that's indeed what we want: a female Kossith with a backstory that can be romanced; not eye candy.

Do we have to lie now just so Mr. Gaider doesn't feel too self conscious? You can take pandering too far but however you cut it making a big horned beautiful humanoid women from a matriarchal society a LI is fan service ... and there is nothing wrong with that. I loved my little blueberry in ME1 and the fanservice as well.

There is no shame in a little fan service and DA3 can only become a better game when Mr. Gaider gets over himself in that respect ... we have seen what writers who fancy themselves a little too much like artists have wrought ... I'd rather they didn't do that again.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Do Qunari even have romance?

Now, I wouldn't mind a Qunari for a companion, but we need more dwarves first.

Say it with me now: Kossith. 

Qunari don't have romance, Kossith might. 

[David Gaider]

Tancred Of The Chantry wrote...
I think Gaider's point is that ultimately, from a creative standpoint, he is against a love interest that exists solely as an object of desire for the player.

My point is that if your objective is to make us want to create such a romance, then espousing an interest that obviously goes no deeper than their race isn't the way to do it. That's no different than someone asking for a big, muscular male character to romance, or "a dwarf"... or saying "I'd like a black woman to romance."

In fact, I'd use the word "romance" rather loosely in that context, because what you're really asking for is a sex scene. And if you think BioWare romances are all about getting it on with a character of your choice, that's great-- but it wouldn't entice me or any other writer to want to make it happen for you. If the alternative is someone accusing me of being prudish or "arty", then so be it. Having the romance be reduced to the equivalent of some body parts is about as artless as I can imagine.

If that's not your stance, or why you want the romance, then great. You've nothing to worry about, so long as you think about what you're saying. That is what I see in a number of these requests, however... so to that I'll simply say that if you're expectation is that we developers should be thrilled to become your virtual pimps, that's simply not the case. The fixation on romance displayed in these forums is borderline distasteful as it is, and certainly not limited to requests for female qunari-- I'd rather not encourage such requests if people actually believe they'll have results that aren't the opposite of what they intend.

Modifié par David Gaider, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:33 .

[KainD]

@David Gaider

I have a question.

It seems you are trying to say that romance-able characters are firstly there for the story, and a romance is just an extra little content. But it seems that it is not always the case.

Like if you take a look at DA:O for example, if you look at Alistar, than he clearly follows this logic - he is there as a wardens "teacher", comrade in arms, and plays quite a big role through out the whole plot, so you probably have written him as a character for a specific story and THEN added romance as something extra.

But there are characters like Zevran out there, which really play no key role in the main plot, and could even be killed off. So Zevran's main goal seems more like a personal relationship one, where the most important part about him ( unlike Alistar ) is not what role he plays, but the interaction with the PC, to make the journey more interesting as a whole.

So basically what I am asking is when you make characters like Zevran, which are basically made for interactions, and romance, and to generally spice up the PC surrounding, THEN how do you decide who that character is going to be?

Because it seems like a female Kossith could be one of those characters, if such a character is not one of the characters that move the main arc.

[David Gaider]

KainD wrote...
It seems you are trying to say that romance-able characters are firstly there for the story, and a romance is just an extra little content. But it seems that it is not always the case.

Generally we create characters to fill roles in the party and the story first, and decide later which ones offer romance possibilities. We have never created a character solely to provide a romance, just as we've never created a character solely to be the member of a race with nothing else attributed to them. Those are really terrible places to begin making a character.

So basically what I am asking is when you make characters like Zevran, which are basically made for interactions, and romance, and to generally spice up the PC surrounding, THEN how do you decide who that character is going to be?

Zevran was created to be a rogue. That was it. His story was fleshed out later, as well as his romance. If it all looks like it was intended right from conception, that's good. That's intentional.

Because it seems like a female Kossith could be one of those characters, if such a character is not one of the characters that move the main arc.

Whether a character is part of the "main arc" has no influence on whether or not we make them romanceable. At some point after we have our character list, we'll decide which ones offer romance possibilities... and it will generally change several times before we start actually writing the characters.

A female qunari (I really hate using the word 'kossith' like that's a term we should be tossing around and not simply something mentioned in a few select places prior to now) could indeed be an interesting romance for a number of reasons. Few of which, to me, would have anything to do with her being qunari. Indeed, we'd need to alter quite a few things about such a character in order to make a romance even plausible. People have expressed a few interesting reasons of their own, and that's cool. All I'm saying is that when someone makes it obvious all they want is a tall, muscular woman with horns that makes me want to create such a romance less and not more.

I imagine many people don't care what I (or another writer) would find interesting to write, or what I as Lead Writer would be interested in authorizing. You want what you want, whether it's sex or whatever. I could simply let it go without comment, and not speak my mind, but that's certainly not going to get you a wanted romance any faster. Forum threads do not write characters.

Modifié par David Gaider, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

Forum threads do not write characters.

Hey now, thread!Cullen is amazing.

[Xilizhra]

A female qunari (I really hate using the word 'kossith' like that's a term we should be tossing around and not simply something mentioned in a few select places prior to now) could indeed be an interesting romance for a number of reasons. Few of which, to me, would have anything to do with her being qunari. Indeed, we'd need to alter quite a few things about such a character in order to make a romance even plausible. People have expressed a few interesting reasons of their own, and that's cool. All I'm saying is that when someone makes it obvious all they want is a tall, muscular woman with horns that makes me want to create such a romance less and not more.

Waitwaitwait. "Few of which would have to do with her being qunari?" Didn't you just ask about what about qunari culture would make one interested in exploring such a romance? I assume you didn't want to use the "kossith" species term, but it's sort of vital here when there's a fairly sharp divide between race and culture.
In any case, I suspect it's more likely that we'd have a Tal-Vashoth LI than a qunari one.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, I suspect it's more likely that we'd have a Tal-Vashoth LI than a qunari one.

That'd be my suspicion as well.

Xilizhra wrote...

I assume you didn't want to use the "kossith" species term, but it's sort of vital here when there's a fairly sharp divide between race and culture.

Especially when Mary Kirby (IIRC) said that we would never be able to romance a Qunari, because that's not something the Qunari do. Romance really has no place in Qunari society.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Women have asked for big, strapping manly men on these forums and no one has batted an eye. It's only when someone asks for big, strapping women that people comment on it being odd, unusual, or a fetish.

I absolutely hate it when stuff like that happens, where one gender's odd and unusual for requesting something -- sometimes culminating them in being called sexist -- but the other isn't. It's one of the main reasons that I feel the idea of sexism has rapidly begun to lose its meaning and is just tossed around willy-nilly by most people.

That's not to say women aren't asking for big, strapping Kossith LIs. I'm sure there are some doing that. But what I'm addressing mainly -- since your post made me think of it, but really isn't too related to your post -- is the idea that only one side is berated for saying something while the other side -- who said much the same thing -- often isn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Direwolf0294]

I feel like I'm stepping on thin ice here, arguing with a dev and all that, but I have to disagree with what you've said David. It sounds to me like you're trying to vilify people for having a sexual preference, for finding certain physical traits more attractive than others. There is nothing wrong, absolutely nothing, with having a preference and wanting that preference to be included in the game. As I said earlier in this thread, those preferences extend to personality, and I think it's quit the double standard that you're okay with people asking for certain personality types to be romanceable because they like that personality type but it's not okay for people to ask for characters with certain physical traits to be romanceable because they like those physical traits.

In the specific case of a romancable female Kossith, we know very little what circumstances would have a Kossith outside the Qun, since most are asking for Kossith the race, not Qunari the ideology, to be romancable as a Qunari romance seems impossible, and as such it's hard to pin down exactly what sort of personality we should be asking for her to have with in the constraints of the story. Many would presumably say strong, though I don't know if you can call strong a personality, but it could be that the writters of DA3 decide that any Kossith outside the Qun would be weak willed and cowardly. All we can do is ask for something we'd like to see and than leave it up to you guys to flesh out the details.

I also take issue with the idea that because someone finds female Kossith sexually attractive the only reason they want them in the game is for a sex scene. I've said before that I didn't think the sex scenes in previous games were very good and would like to see them improved for DA3, but that doesn't mean I just want a female Kossith so I can watch a sex scene featuring her. If I was that desperate to see a naked female Kossith I'd just head to google and have images of it within seconds (rule 34 strikes again). Can not a sexual attraction to a character simply translate into it being aesthetically pleasing to have them wondering around my Castle (which will presumably function as some sort of companion hub), fighting alongside me in combat and taking a part in the overall story, in the same way someone may ask for a character to have a really badass piece of armour or weapon?

Having said all that, I'm not saying I am sexually attracted to female Kossith, after all I've only seen a picture of one from a comic and that's it, they could look completely different ingame, or that the only reason I'm requesting a female Kossith in DA3 is because of their apperance, but I think what I've said above is something that needed to be said as an opposing view to the stance you've taken and maybe help you see things from different perspectives instead of just straight up dismissing the idea of including a female Kossith out of spite (you did sound a bit spiteful in your post).

Edit: this was specifically written as a reply to David's second last comment, not the last comment before this post. I think my point still stands, however. Just wanted to add a bit of context.

Modifié par Direwolf0294, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:29 .

[Darkstorne]

Xilizhra wrote...

A female qunari (I really hate using the word 'kossith' like that's a term we should be tossing around and not simply something mentioned in a few select places prior to now) could indeed be an interesting romance for a number of reasons. Few of which, to me, would have anything to do with her being qunari. Indeed, we'd need to alter quite a few things about such a character in order to make a romance even plausible. People have expressed a few interesting reasons of their own, and that's cool. All I'm saying is that when someone makes it obvious all they want is a tall, muscular woman with horns that makes me want to create such a romance less and not more.

 I suspect it's more likely that we'd have a Tal-Vashoth LI than a qunari one.

i suspect it's more likely we won't have a Kossith LI at all if the writers have no desire to create one. Forcing an artist to create something he has no current interest or inspiration to create won't lead to good results, no matter how eager we are.

I would like to see it happen, because I always find it fascinating to see Bioware introduce characters who aren't stereotypically attractive like Tali and Jack from Mass Effect, and then slowly capture player's attention through interesting and relatable personalities. That's far more impressive to me than characters who spark attraction from the get go with their looks, like Isabella and Miranda.

[TEWR]

Honestly, I wonder what's going to happen to Maraas going forward. I liked him, and I'd like to see more of him.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I have a feeling they're going to include a character who keeps using the word "kossith" to the great annoyance of any kossith nearby leading to his eventual gruesome demise if we keep this up.

I'd laugh at that, honestly.

Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith  Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith 
 

 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:35 .

[KainD]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I have a feeling they're going to include a character who keeps using the word "kossith" to the great annoyance of any kossith nearby leading to his eventual gruesome demise if we keep this up.

Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith  Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith Kossith 
 

 

Ripped the post right out of my "submit".