1034 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkysPain]

Double post, board is acting up.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:14 .

[PinkysPain]

David Gaider wrote...
My point is that if your objective is to make us want to
create such a romance, then espousing an interest that obviously goes
no deeper than their race isn't the way to do it.

Well the main attraction is that the on the nose way to write it is so obvious, Viconia redux, that anything you do to deviate from that is going to come like a complete surprise ... especially if you make the player think initially it's going to play out like that. Now I've ruined the surprise though, so does that really entice you to write it? I seriously doubt it.

My trying to write an outline of the romance for you would be dishonest to the reason I'm initially attracted to the concept (the slight alienness of appeance and emotion, the physical strength, the matriarchy) and ultimately make you even less likely to want to write it AFAICS. To me it seems more like you were ready to do the Qunari romance any way and now you're just trying to talk yourself out of it because it was suggested here and you realize that there is just no way around it, it's slightly fetish bait ...

If that's not your stance, or why you want the romance, then great.
You've nothing to worry about, so long as you think about what you're
saying. That is what I see in a number of these requests, however... so
to that I'll simply say that if you're expectation is that we developers
should be thrilled to become your virtual pimps, that's simply not the
case. The fixation on romance displayed in these forums is borderline
distasteful as it is, and certainly not limited to requests for female
qunari-- I'd rather not encourage such requests if people actually
believe they'll have results that aren't the opposite of what they
intend.

Intentionally trying to buck our expectations because you start to hate your audience is not a healthy demeanor ... you'll just grow to hate yourself after you realise that even with that small deviation you'll still be forced to include romances we will fetishize any way.

It's just the sick ****s we are ... deal with it, or you could ban romance threads I guess (no skin off my nose despite my participation in this one).

Modifié par PinkysPain, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:17 .

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

KainD wrote...
It seems you are trying to say that romance-able characters are firstly there for the story, and a romance is just an extra little content. But it seems that it is not always the case.

Generally we create characters to fill roles in the party and the story first, and decide later which ones offer romance possibilities. We have never created a character solely to provide a romance, just as we've never created a character solely to be the member of a race with nothing else attributed to them. Those are really terrible places to begin making a character.

So basically what I am asking is when you make characters like Zevran, which are basically made for interactions, and romance, and to generally spice up the PC surrounding, THEN how do you decide who that character is going to be?

Zevran was created to be a rogue. That was it. His story was fleshed out later, as well as his romance. If it all looks like it was intended right from conception, that's good. That's intentional.

Because it seems like a female Kossith could be one of those characters, if such a character is not one of the characters that move the main arc.

Whether a character is part of the "main arc" has no influence on whether or not we make them romanceable. At some point after we have our character list, we'll decide which ones offer romance possibilities... and it will generally change several times before we start actually writing the characters.

A female qunari (I really hate using the word 'kossith' like that's a term we should be tossing around and not simply something mentioned in a few select places prior to now) could indeed be an interesting romance for a number of reasons. Few of which, to me, would have anything to do with her being qunari. Indeed, we'd need to alter quite a few things about such a character in order to make a romance even plausible. People have expressed a few interesting reasons of their own, and that's cool. All I'm saying is that when someone makes it obvious all they want is a tall, muscular woman with horns that makes me want to create such a romance less and not more.

I imagine many people don't care what I (or another writer) would find interesting to write, or what I as Lead Writer would be interested in authorizing. You want what you want, whether it's sex or whatever. I could simply let it go without comment, and not speak my mind, but that's certainly not going to get you a wanted romance any faster. Forum threads do not write characters.

So youre saying that you dont think female kossith should be objectified. I think those of us who are mature would agree.

What I do not understand is how you feel you would need to alter "quite a few things" about a Female Kossith?

The misunderstanding comes from the lore, You can be Kossith and seperate from the Qun. and to me Seperate from the Qun doesnt nescessarily mean that your Tal-Vasoth. (maybe a orphan somewhere raised by humans)

So the real question becomes, Do all kossith view romance, love, or sex  the same way inheritly even if they are not raised within the Qun?

And Why did you just attach a Negative connotation to the word kossith? This troubles me.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Foolsfolly]

I'm glad I stepped into this thread. I always wondered if BioWare created certain characters merely to be romancable or not (shut up, it's a word). So that was all very interesting to read.

As for the topic.... I don't know. I kinda thought the qunari didn't have love. I mean they don't even keep their children. I imagine reproducing is just a demand of the qun and then the child is sent off to the priests to be assigned roles. I never got the idea that qunari had 'romance.'

So... that's quite the cultural barrier to overcome. Not insurmountable, by any means... but... I doubt there's a happy ending there. And if inter-species mating doesn't produce qunari off-spring you may never get the qunari girl to even consider it (what would be the point of such behavior?).

...I don't know OP.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:27 .

[septembervirgin]

David Gaider wrote...
If that's not your stance, or why you want the romance, then great. You've nothing to worry about, so long as you think about what you're saying. That is what I see in a number of these requests, however... so to that I'll simply say that if you're expectation is that we developers should be thrilled to become your virtual pimps, that's simply not the case. The fixation on romance displayed in these forums is borderline distasteful as it is, and certainly not limited to requests for female qunari-- I'd rather not encourage such requests if people actually believe they'll have results that aren't the opposite of what they intend.

Gaider, Gaider, Gaider.

I know you're being asked to fume, but don't pretend that you've not the slightest idea that your games are selling on violence and sex.  It's not your stories nor your dialogue, don't fool yourself.  Let's have a test.  Make a game for children set in the same world.  Why haven't you so far?  I don't know, it's not like you can't approach issues of power dialectic otherwise.  Literature would prove you wrong if you claimed that children's books don't talk about slavery and tyranny, war and sacrifice, insanity and fear.  The only things you can't talk so much about in a children's book is sex and violence.  And children's games can be just as complex, Gaider.

Your consumer audience is on to your shenanigans.  They don't need a sly wink nor a nod.  If sex in games bothers you, if your audience asking for more sex in a future game bothers you, ask yourself, "Why do I work on a game where the past two iterations featured brothels as a portion of gameplay?"

Does it bother you that people would want to love a Qunari, something you meant to be an honorable foe, a challenging foe?  A foe with potential superiority?  If we love that foe, we can't be utterly intimidated by it, perhaps?  No, you're hardly upset in reality, scowling all the way to the bank.  

You could have simply ignored some of the requests people make; they'll keep making these requests, both snidely and earnestly.  Instead, you're expressing anguish, clumsy arguments, but your typing remains impeccable.  Why not write Kossith?  Alot of people are aware that the name of those horned beings is Kossith.  Are you trying to make us believe you don't believe in Christian-Muslim romance?  You want us to argue with you, saying, "Oh Gaider, please let us romance the very poetic image of our supposed enemies!"  Yet the Christians and Muslims are not formally enemies.

No, I think you're just grumbling so that we focus on the issue, so that it looks like we've forced your hand, so we feel as if it's our great act, as if we won a gift through our strength as a mindless mob of pervs.  Actually, I don't care and most people here don't care enough to even make a statement (most users remain silent).  Qunari are interesting so much as Thedas is interesting -- to me, and to me Thedas is only interesting because it comes upon us like a vulture along a wide wastelands.  

Anais Nin writes better romances and so does George Sand.  Gertrude Stein's poem Lifting Belly is far more encouraging and loving.  Ray Bradbury has a talent for striking love into the heart; Clarisse McClellan you've not invented better than.  Yet do we have many role-playing games that skirt Grand Strategy gameplay, that permit political interactions, that draw on popular horror motifs, zombies and demonic possession?

I think you know you write pulp and porn.  I think you should be pleased to have such popularity and gather such wealth from your words.  Steven King should welcome you as a potential peer.  With time and practise?

If you wanted to write romance without pandering, you should have oriented the title towards a younger audience.  But now there's Kickstarter.  So we will be expecting edutainment titles from your hand any time now, Gaider?

Of course not.  Neither should we expect love from a Kossith, male nor female, within this game any time ever.  I only seek computer role-playing games of fair quality.  Dragon Age Origins fit that bill, a computer role-playing game of fair quality.  Now we turn to Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, and we hope other alternatives will appear.

But worry not, we will seek out Dragon Age 3, without hoping for Kossith girls even.  We're that devoted, yes?  Maybe.  Maybe.  If we liked Dragon Age 2, then maybe...

Modifié par septembervirgin, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

[PinkysPain]

Well, that was fun while it lasted.

[septembervirgin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

As the Beloved Author is wont to say, "Don't eat the cheese."

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

I call them checkers!

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

My point is that if your objective is to make us want to create such a romance, then espousing an interest that obviously goes no deeper than their race isn't the way to do it. That's no different than someone asking for a big, muscular male character to romance, or "a dwarf"... or saying "I'd like a black woman to romance."

Maybe some people do want a black woman to romance.
Isabela was great. (Race Bending panel Mr. Gaider participated in from his own mouth he says she's black) 
I dont see what's so wrong about saying that you have personal preference, I think Black character's should be represented more in variations of their apperance throughout Dragon Age, like Redgaurds in Skyrim. At least you could actually create a black person in Skyrim if you wish. In Dragon Age trying to create a black person is like asking a Frog to talk.

I like women with large bottoms and wide hips, id like to have a character in dragon age like that. Is that somehow distasteful? In fact, most people choose who to romance by what  looks visually appealing to them. If someone's Personality was the sole deciding factor in the Standard of Attraction, Kim Kardashian would be SOOOO ugly to me. 

Before the Women jump on me, Id rather have a 6 that loved me as opposed to a 10 that just wanted me for the money, personality is huge in my book. (but we dont know anything about Female Qunari).

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

a Little Beer and a balonga sandwich over here

[septembervirgin]

I somewhat wonder why Dragon Age just isn't very hip, but I'll probably end up buying a copy anyway, unless critical reviews and user reviews bode poorly. I don't think a Kossith would change my opinion. I've always gone for limber girls my own height that are gentle and artistic, not for highly critical and philosophically problematic women that tower over me.

[AlexanderCousland]

septembervirgin wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If that's not your stance, or why you want the romance, then great. You've nothing to worry about, so long as you think about what you're saying. That is what I see in a number of these requests, however... so to that I'll simply say that if you're expectation is that we developers should be thrilled to become your virtual pimps, that's simply not the case. The fixation on romance displayed in these forums is borderline distasteful as it is, and certainly not limited to requests for female qunari-- I'd rather not encourage such requests if people actually believe they'll have results that aren't the opposite of what they intend.

Gaider, Gaider, Gaider.

I know you're being asked to fume, but don't pretend that you've not the slightest idea that your games are selling on violence and sex.  It's not your stories nor your dialogue, don't fool yourself.  Let's have a test.  Make a game for children set in the same world.  Why haven't you so far?  I don't know, it's not like you can't approach issues of power dialectic otherwise.  Literature would prove you wrong if you claimed that children's books don't talk about slavery and tyranny, war and sacrifice, insanity and fear.  The only things you can't talk so much about in a children's book is sex and violence.  And children's games can be just as complex, Gaider.

Your consumer audience is on to your shenanigans.  They don't need a sly wink nor a nod.  If sex in games bothers you, if your audience asking for more sex in a future game bothers you, ask yourself, "Why do I work on a game where the past two iterations featured brothels as a portion of gameplay?"

Does it bother you that people would want to love a Qunari, something you meant to be an honorable foe, a challenging foe?  A foe with potential superiority?  If we love that foe, we can't be utterly intimidated by it, perhaps?  No, you're hardly upset in reality, scowling all the way to the bank.  

You could have simply ignored some of the requests people make; they'll keep making these requests, both snidely and earnestly.  Instead, you're expressing anguish, clumsy arguments, but your typing remains impeccable.  Why not write Kossith?  Alot of people are aware that the name of those horned beings is Kossith.  Are you trying to make us believe you don't believe in Christian-Muslim romance?  You want us to argue with you, saying, "Oh Gaider, please let us romance the very poetic image of our supposed enemies!"  Yet the Christians and Muslims are not formally enemies.

No, I think you're just grumbling so that we focus on the issue, so that it looks like we've forced your hand, so we feel as if it's our great act, as if we won a gift through our strength as a mindless mob of pervs.  Actually, I don't care and most people here don't care enough to even make a statement (most users remain silent).  Qunari are interesting so much as Thedas is interesting -- to me, and to me Thedas is only interesting because it comes upon us like a vulture along a wide wastelands.  

Anais Nin writes better romances and so does George Sand.  Gertrude Stein's poem Lifting Belly is far more encouraging and loving.  Ray Bradbury has a talent for striking love into the heart; Clarisse McClellan you've not invented better than.  Yet do we have many role-playing games that skirt Grand Strategy gameplay, that permit political interactions, that draw on popular horror motifs, zombies and demonic possession?

I think you know you write pulp and porn.  I think you should be pleased to have such popularity and gather such wealth from your words.  Steven King should welcome you as a potential peer.  With time and practise?

If you wanted to write romance without pandering, you should have oriented the title towards a younger audience.  But now there's Kickstarter.  So we will be expecting edutainment titles from your hand any time now, Gaider?

Of course not.  Neither should we expect love from a Kossith, male nor female, within this game any time ever.  I only seek computer role-playing games of fair quality.  Dragon Age Origins fit that bill, a computer role-playing game of fair quality.  Now we turn to Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, and we hope other alternatives will appear.

But worry not, we will seek out Dragon Age 3, without hoping for Kossith girls even.  We're that devoted, yes?  Maybe.  Maybe.  If we liked Dragon Age 2, then maybe...

You didnt have to go so hard on Gaider like that
good points though

[septembervirgin]

Heavens, he sounded like his daughter wanted to date the only Kossith at her high school.

[ademska]

septembervirgin wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If that's not your stance, or why you want the romance, then great. You've nothing to worry about, so long as you think about what you're saying. That is what I see in a number of these requests, however... so to that I'll simply say that if you're expectation is that we developers should be thrilled to become your virtual pimps, that's simply not the case. The fixation on romance displayed in these forums is borderline distasteful as it is, and certainly not limited to requests for female qunari-- I'd rather not encourage such requests if people actually believe they'll have results that aren't the opposite of what they intend.

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you make salient points, my pal

i know i for one would appreciate more pulp and porn in my narratives

[Kidd]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Can not a sexual attraction to a character simply translate into it being aesthetically pleasing to have them wondering around my Castle (which will presumably function as some sort of companion hub), fighting alongside me in combat and taking a part in the overall story, in the same way someone may ask for a character to have a really badass piece of armour or weapon?

This line of thinking just made you compare a person to a piece of armour or a weapon. Don't you see what's wrong with that?

That said, I would welcome a female kossith - Qunari or Tal-Vashoth. We don't know a great deal about the Tal-Vashoth yet and getting some insight there would be nice, although my personal geekheart longs more for a "proper" female Qunari. I mean sure, we got Tallis, but considering her difficulty accepting the Qun whole-heartedly to begin with I still feel I haven't gotten the perspective I'd like.

Ugh, all right, I'll come out and say it, I simply love everything we've seen of the Qunari so far that I'd love an entire game being about them and any minute of more Qunari content has me happy. Whoever came up with the Qunari on the writing team deserves huge cookies. I'll spare this writer my own baking, but some humongous cookies should be had nontheless!

[Kerilus]

If a romanceble qunari involves her ultimately killing herself in tears rather than to abandon the Qun, I'm in. Preferably after a failed attempt to kill the protaganist to get rid of such infidel concerns

[TEWR]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

It's times like this I wish I had my preferred Subway sub in hand. So delicious, it is.

How long do you predict before things start falling to hell in this thread? Or have they already?

[Kerilus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If anyone happens to be wondering if I'm lurking this thread with popcorn in hand, I absolutely am.

Just kidding, it's cheese and crackers.

It's times like this I wish I had my preferred Subway sub in hand. So delicious, it is.

How long do you predict before things start falling to hell in this thread? Or have they already?

It has gone to hell thoroughly then brought back to a reasonable degree of seriousness by David's divine intervention.
Personally, i think such romance must not have a happy ending in the Thedas universe. The beginning and the development should be very interesting, but the end should be a tragedy.

[MerAnne]

I'm going with 'already have'.

[paptschik]

David Gaider wrote...

A female qunari (I really hate using the word 'kossith' like that's a term we should be tossing around and not simply something mentioned in a few select places prior to now) could indeed be an interesting romance for a number of reasons. Few of which, to me, would have anything to do with her being qunari. Indeed, we'd need to alter quite a few things about such a character in order to make a romance even plausible. People have expressed a few interesting reasons of their own, and that's cool. All I'm saying is that when someone makes it obvious all they want is a tall, muscular woman with horns that makes me want to create such a romance less and not more.

But many people have brought up reasons, good reasons, OTHER than just looks. First and foremost it being something unique, something entirely new. More fantasy in a fantasy world.
Make a fat, ugly woman from another race for all i care, but just...something different, inherently different - THAT is interesting. It it's not an elf or a human, it's already more enticing than many other options, just because of the "unique" factor. Sure, personality is also hugely important (and the main reason I still mourn that we never got Varric or Sigrun as dwarf options simply because they are much more likable and interesting than most romancable characters we've had so far, in my opinion of course), but even there, like I previously said, are certain expectations that make people want THIS particular kind of character as an option. And if it's not a female, then put in a male of the species, also good, the point that people would expect a serious, strong, mature kind of character still stands and that's something we didn't REALLY get in a romance yet. Zevran, Isabela, they're just outgoing and fun, Merrill is the cute type, Morrigan was sarcastic, Leliana and Alistair had a certain seriousness to them, but mostly hid that with their lighthearted attitude, Anders was less serious and more melodramatic and Fenris, he was probably the closest we got, but even he was more like an angry puppy lashing out at anything than a serious warrior-type. So...a new kind of romance, THAT could also be gained from this. Sure, you could also give it to us with a human and we'd probably like it too. But it doesn't make us bad people to appreciate it if you go the more unconventional route.
I mean, in the end, isn't sticking just to humans and elves basically making sure that all the romance options we get are characters that "the majority of people will find hot"? Humans and elves are the vanilla of romance options - physically attractive to virtually anyone, bam, you got your audience even before you work on the personality. Now romances of other races - it has been said in several threads by several people that they don't find dwarves or qunari or whatever have you (again, there's plenty more options, it's fantasy after all) attractive, so here making them appealing would actually be MORE of a challenge and LESS about just bodies.

Plus, you mention having to change things - just that is also something that makes it interesting. The question of "how can it be done". It creates conflict. Maybe even drama. Could have characters question their very being, that very concept is what drove me and certainly many others to romance Fenris with a Mage Hawke (and that was done well, but could've been explored a LOT more).

I'm not saying "WE DEMAND THIS AT ALL COSTS YADDAYADDADINGDONG!". I'm just saying that those of us who want something less common, something more unique, those of us who were all over the idea of romancing aliens in Mass Effect just because they were different, those who like to explore the fantasy aspect even in the romances more than has been done befoe - we're not all a bunch of perverts (even if we find some characters attractive). We're just people with a different opinion. So what if our opinion is different from yours, Mr. Gaider. It still deserves to be respected and heard. Doesn't have to be put in the game, but just because some people just wanna bang a chick with horns doesn't mean all our opinions should be discarded as worthless.
Just saying and with all due respect.

[septembervirgin]

I think Gaider shouldn't include kissing with Kossith. Just saying. I think he's done more than enough so far. Maybe romance in the game should remain pretty words, if anyone can write pretty romance at all now. Is there even an anima mundi, out of several of these, that wishes love for us? I don't think so.

[GloriousDame]

PinkysPain wrote...

-snip-
Do we have to lie now just so Mr. Gaider doesn't feel too self conscious? You can take pandering too far but however you cut it making a big horned beautiful humanoid women from a matriarchal society a LI is fan service ... and there is nothing wrong with that. I loved my little blueberry in ME1 and the fanservice as well.

There is no shame in a little fan service and DA3 can only become a better game when Mr. Gaider gets over himself in that respect ... we have seen what writers who fancy themselves a little too much like artists have wrought ... I'd rather they didn't do that again.

Oh, of course there is shame, don't you know the writers are not in this for the money gain in the slightest and that fans hardly pay a dime for these games? Whether DA is with EA (a major publisher) has absolutely nothing to do monetary gain, but rather for artistic integrity.

<_<

Dragon Age is first a work of art (and a great one, at that) and part of a business second... But part of a business nonetheless. Respectfully, surely writers expected fans to make some demands or ask for compromises that  may or may not agree with them, when going into the RPG gaming industry. Edit: This isn't to say they should give in to every little demand, of course. I understand that there needs to be a degree of appeal for some writers to write on any given topic, but no modern company is run by completely ignoring the demands of the customer just because the customer's reasonings for the demands aren't reasons that the company desired. 

Modifié par ArinTheirinCousland, 22 octobre 2012 - 12:05 .