1034 réponses à ce sujet

[SamaraDraven]

I thought it was Brother Geniivi's codexes about his travels that stated the difference between Qunari and kossith?

[Giltspur]

PinkysPain wrote...

M25105 wrote...
What's a Kossith?

I don't know where the term originated, but the wiki links a twitter which suggests it's the name the writers have given to what we generally call Qunari (because supposedly they themselves use Qunari to describe every member of their culture including the captured slave labour).

Of course now David doesn't like the term ... so who the hell knows.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure I get why the writers have had some negative comments about the term.  Sometimes you want to talk about what the Tal-Vashoth and Qunari generally without saying "Tal-Vashoth and Qunari" and without including Tallis when you mention Qunari, and "Kossith" seems the only way to do all of that.  Maybe their contention is that people of Thedas don't make a distinction and out of ignorance or lack of regard conflate the two by calling them all Qunari and that Qunari themselves don't feel a need to include Tal'Vashoth or exclude Tallis when speaking of Qunari.  I could see such a contention (and I don't know if that's what the writers think or not)--for people that live in Thedas.  But BSN posters don't live in Thedas and aren't subject to the mindsets of people in Thedas.  So, given what I know, I like the term.

[CARL_DF90]

Wow! Glad to see this thread is still going strong! Keep it up my friends!

I know because of site rules and whatnot that I'll get flak for saying this but it needs to be said.

@ septembervirgin
You are a freaking idiot for the unhelpful patronizing BS you said to Mr.Gaider and derailed the whole point of this this. Unless you have something a little more constructive and/or positive to say, for the sake of everyone who likes to keep this a good place please keep your stupidity and BS to yourself. Thank you.

[PinkysPain]

Looking back through the forum it was the DA2 guide which used the term Kossith. From comments from Mr. Gaider it was clearly a term they used internally, which they for whatever reason didn't want to be used by us ... but then one of the other Bioware employees slipped up on Twitter and used it anyway in open communication.

Now Mr. Gaider is fighting windmills

I guess Mr. Gaider would really prefer us to say Qunari Kossith or Tal-Vashoth Kossith, but doesn't want to come right out and say that because he doesn't want to give anything away of the larger world ... presumably the Qunari were actually refugees from a rather different Kossith culture.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 22 octobre 2012 - 07:52 .

[Spedfrom]

Well, that escalated quickly!

In all honesty however, both Gaider and septembervirgin make good points I think, if you remove the spite inbetween the written lines.

[Argetfalcon]

I hope bioware listens

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I feel like all my condescension re: romances as wish fulfillment fantasies in video games has been justified several times over after reading this thread.

Thank you, BSN.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Fraq Hound]

David Gaider wrote...

HereticDante wrote...
Please Mr. Gaider include a Female Kossith for companion and love interest.

For a companion, it's a possibility.

As for a romance, I certainly hope the origin of such a request is that there's some aspect of qunari culture which someone finds appealing in a romance character. The alternative is too fetishistic to be appealing to me-- that they don't really care for any aspect of personality or temperament beyond the character being a tall, muscular woman. The idea that such a character should exist solely to indulge such a fetish is, in fact, exactly the sort of thing that would make a writer like myself disinclined to ever provide the option.

Having only read Mr. Gaider's posts and nothing else...

I can only speak for my own tastes but personally I find the Qunari to be the most interesting thing about this universe. Their culture is entirely foreign to us and from an outsider's perspective, most of it seems kinda unpleasant.

The Kossith are (from what I understand) the originators of this culture and also the only race that isn't generic, par for the course, fantasy 101.

Having a Kossith companion that was not only born into this culture but has rejected it, is endlessly facinating in my opinion. All we've really seen of the Kossith are those who still function within the Qun. They talk to the PC about what makes the Qun great.

However the PC's interactions always tend to mirror my own thoughts. "It's all very interesting and some of it makes perferct sense, but I sure wouldn't want to live that way."

I would love to meet a Kossith who can not only tell us of the problems that arise trying to live this way but the difficulties that arise when trying to leave this culture. I have to imagine it's not an easy thing to walk out on.

A person who has the strength to survive leaving such a culture is very intriguing to me. The concept art of female Kossith thus far do come off as "Pretty" to me. They are certainly the most exotic race shown thus far (which I spoke about earlier).

So Yes, I would very much so like to see a female Kossith, romancable companion and no it isn't just a fetish thing. I thought Tali was the best romance in Mass Effect (even though it ended craptasticly) and I would have to cite alot of the same reasons that I did for the Kossith above.

1. The least Generic and most interesting Sci-fi culture in the game.

2. The most exotic species (We never got to see what they looked like so, yes, I consider them the MOST exotic.)
   Also if somebody says I'm wrong and points to the infamous photoshop picture, they can go *&^) themselves. That is not what anybody wanted to see and as such it does not count!

3. She was beautifully written and perfectly cast.


You've got the first two ingredients already, the third is on you.

Most likely we will get some unattractive/off-putting romances (Isabella/Morrigan) or some terribly boring ones (Merrill/Leliana).  Again I can only speak for myself and honestly I'm probably a bad person to listen to.

I'm already committed to not buying this game until I hear from real fans that it's worth the $60 but as someone who used to love your games to the point of unhealthy obsession, that's my 2 cents.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Filament wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

I feel like all my condescension re: romances as wish fulfillment fantasies in video games has been justified several times over after reading this thread.

Thank you, BSN.

But what if the BSN is just a juvenile wish fulfillment fantasy for cynical bastards like yourself?

xzibityodawg.jpg

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

Say it with me now: Kossith. 

Qunari don't have romance, Kossith might. 

Ah, but I read through the past few pages and it turns out that Qunari don't have romance.  Besides, Morrigan already tried and was shot down pretty hard.  Sten is master troll.

[Imp of the Perverse]

I think I'd like to see a female tal vashoth mage. It seems like female qunari mages would have it particularly tough - the qunari don't even seem comfortable having a chained and gagged mage around to point at their enemies, let alone having one in a populated area tending shop or whatever. And they're not ok with female warriors, according to Sten's dialog. So maybe have a character that escaped, or was rescued by a parent, to avoid the whole serabaas treatment. Bonus points for setting up some serious tension with any qunari squadmates or NPCs you encounter.

[Josielyn]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I think I'd like to see a female tal vashoth mage. It seems like female qunari mages would have it particularly tough - the qunari don't even seem comfortable having a chained and gagged mage around to point at their enemies, let alone having one in a populated area tending shop or whatever. And they're not ok with female warriors, according to Sten's dialog. So maybe have a character that escaped, or was rescued by a parent, to avoid the whole serabaas treatment. Bonus points for setting up some serious tension with any qunari squadmates or NPCs you encounter.

---
This... totally this.  LI or no, would be an incredible character.  The Anti-qunari!

[Vestua]

^ Would also add another perspective for pro/anti mage scenes.

[Imp of the Perverse]

Josielyn wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I think I'd like to see a female tal vashoth mage. It seems like female qunari mages would have it particularly tough - the qunari don't even seem comfortable having a chained and gagged mage around to point at their enemies, let alone having one in a populated area tending shop or whatever. And they're not ok with female warriors, according to Sten's dialog. So maybe have a character that escaped, or was rescued by a parent, to avoid the whole serabaas treatment. Bonus points for setting up some serious tension with any qunari squadmates or NPCs you encounter.

---
This... totally this.  LI or no, would be an incredible character.  The Anti-qunari!

She could have some great squad interactions, depending on who returns. Sten would hate her, Morrigan would love her, and depending on her personality seeing varric or zevran trying to flirt could be pretty funny. She probably wouldn't like Fenris too much (neither would Morrigan.)

[Fraq Hound]

David Gaider wrote...

septembervirgin wrote...
I think you know you write pulp and porn.  I think you should be pleased to have such popularity and gather such wealth from your words.  Steven King should welcome you as a potential peer.  With time and practise?

And now we're onto patronizing BS.

Well, enjoy your argument. I've said all I care to on the subject-- I have pulp and porn to write.

You know, given the way that constructive posts get buried around here. I'd be better off walking away from these boards right now.

However, I'm going to (perhaps idiotically) contribute one more post.

I remember when Dragon Age: Origins was still in development, lots of Bioware developers and gaming media claiming that this would be a universe that drew heavily off of dark themes and undertones found in George R.R. Martin's, "The Song of Ice and Fire," novels.

I'm currently re-listening to the audiobooks for this series and recently persuaded several of my colleagues at work to check it out.

SPOILERS AHEAD

While listening to the first novel in the series, "A Game of Thrones." I was quickly reminded (To my embarrassment) of how sexually graphic some of the scenes are (Especially those centering around the Characters Daenerys and Tyrion).

Given that these novels were, supposedly, inspiration for the Dragon Age series; I'd be very curious if the developers (Especially Mr. Gaider.) Consider these scenes to be pornographic?

Of the five colleagues that are listening to these novels along with me, only one was turned off of the novels because of the graphic nature of these scenes. He told me that, "It's just a bit to graphic for me."

I'm happy to report that the other four were not bothered by it.

I did a bit of self reflection because of all this and I've come to realize that some of these scenes play a big part in what makes these novels so enjoyable to me. Not because of their graphic nature (Though admittadly I like a little bit of Naughty in my literature.) but because of their importance in establishing these characters.

Daenerys scene centers around her wedding night with a particularlly fearsome character named Khal Drogo. The build up to this scene paints him as a vicious barbarian. A hard man who gets off on brutality and domination.

It's horrifying for Daenerys, who was sold to this man after having already lived a pretty crappy life, under the thumb of her abusive brother.

However, during this REALLY graphic sexual scene between Daenerys and the Khal. You see a completely different side of this man. He turns out to be a really tender and caring person, going so far as to become the best thing that ever happens to this scared little girl.

It's very beautifully written and very important to the development of these two characters.

Tyrion's graphic scenes portray that while he is a logical, cautious man. He is unable to help himself when confronted by a woman who accepts (or at least appears to accept) him for what he is. He throws caution to the wind and does some truly idiotic things because of this weakness.

How did he develop this weakness? Well the answer to that comes later in yet another graphic scene. Wherein Tryion is forced by his own father into helping a barracks full of soldiers rape his own wife.

Now, I find myself wondering. What would have happened if George R.R. Martin had decided that he wanted to try and bring my turned off colleague into the fold with the sequel, "A Clash of Kings;" by shying away from the graphic content?

It's hard to speculate though I tend to think that the series wouldn't be the, "Apex of Modern Fantasy" that many, including myself, consider it to be.

*******************

Finally I wanted to bring some of David Gaider's own work into this post.

I read his Dragon Age Novel, "The Stolen Throne." Back in March 2009.

I don't remember much, other then that I did find it quite enjoyable and I would recommend it to anyone who enjoys fantasy literature (Kudos to you Mr. Gaider.)

However I feel obligated to say that there is one theme in this book that stuck with me.

MORE SPOILERS AHEAD

I remember there being a love triangle of sorts, and please forgive me if I get the names wrong. It's been three years since I've had to think about these characters.

Maric, Logan, Rowan, and Katriel. (Thanks Wikipedia.)

Maric and Katriel fell in love. Logan and Rowan fell in love. However Maric and Rowan had to get married for the good of the realm. It was a powerful example of how duty can sometimes trump personal desire.

I remember that there was some really emotional scenes near the end of the book, where Logan and Rowan spent a night together. I don't remember if these scenes were very graphic or if they were; I don't remember to what extent.

However I think it's worth mentioning that it is the only thing that stick's with me from that book and that in my personal opinion it's the best thing that Mr. Gaider has written.

**************

In closing, I'm just continually surprised at the hostility the developers at this company show towards graphic depictions of sex and nudity. Especially when they cite "A Song of Ice and Fire," a series jam packed with graphic sex and nudity as a key inspiration for their creation.

I realize that they are two different mediums.

However, to think of gaming as a hobby belonging exclusively to children is selling this industry short. I grew up playing video games and they are a huge part of my life. At some point I hope that video games will grow up as well.

Appealing to all audiences does not make for compelling stories. Ask George Lucas, the man who created and then effectively destroyed Star Wars. It was once a Modern day Odyssey. Now it's a saturday morning children's cartoon. Well played Mr. Lucas.

Modifié par Fraq Hound, 23 octobre 2012 - 01:48 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Hey Fraq Hound, I enjoyed reading your post.

I share your dismay at how much and how often the potential of the video game format is underestimated. I have a book of the 1000 greatest films ever made, listed in chronological order. There are all sorts of early classics in that book, like the Melies films. In 2100 there will likely be a book of the greatest video games ever made, with some 'early' classics like Bioshock and Half Life appearing in it.

If Bioware want their name stamped on 21st century history, like Melies has his name stamped on the 20th, then they really ought to be taking storytelling risks as great as those made by someone like George RR Martin. They don't have to be the greatest video game developers, they just have to be the first great video game developers. If they aren't, someone else will be.

It is disappointing , then, to see that David Gaider doesn't appear to realise that when people ask for a different raced companion as a love interest, and they ask for this option solely in order to get some kind of exotic titillation out of it, then that is not the worst reason, nor even a bad reason to provide the option, as DG claims it to be. It is in fact the best reason to do so: to create a deep, well-written, multi-faceted and different raced romanceable companion - to turn the exotic, objectified 'other' into someone real, complex, beautiful and flawed.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:04 .

[ThisIsZad]

septembervirgin wrote...
I think you know you write pulp and porn.  I think you should be pleased to have such popularity and gather such wealth from your words.  Steven King should welcome you as a potential peer.  With time and practise?

EAT SH#T!

[Abramis brama]

I would love a female Kossith companion and LI. I'm quite bored at the normal bioware stereotypes and didn't even romance anyone in DA2. Though I wish that the female Kossiths would be much more muscular  . They just seem tall models now.

[Kidd]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I think I'd like to see a female tal vashoth mage. It seems like female qunari mages would have it particularly tough - the qunari don't even seem comfortable having a chained and gagged mage around to point at their enemies, let alone having one in a populated area tending shop or whatever. And they're not ok with female warriors, according to Sten's dialog. So maybe have a character that escaped, or was rescued by a parent, to avoid the whole serabaas treatment. Bonus points for setting up some serious tension with any qunari squadmates or NPCs you encounter.

From my understanding of qunari culture, I doubt female mages would be treated worse (not better either btw).

The women are not considered oppressed in qunari culture, they are relegated to certain jobs where they will be of most benefit according to the Tamassran. This mirrors the men's role in qunari society, who take on other roles instead. The two form society together, and although there indeed are gender roles, neither gender is seen as lesser compared to the other. A soldier can only fight if the blacksmith has made weapons. A blacksmith can only forge weapons if they have been fed. The farmer can only grow crops if they have been relegated to their role by the Tamassran. And to seal the circle, the Tamassran are vulnerable if the soldiers aren't there to protect them.

Everybody are needed and everybody is equal. There might be strict roles to fulfill, but the lack of freedom is not necessarily outright oppression. This is all according to my views of qunari society from the DA media I've taken in, I'm certainly no BW writer =)

[Imp of the Perverse]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I think I'd like to see a female tal vashoth mage. It seems like female qunari mages would have it particularly tough - the qunari don't even seem comfortable having a chained and gagged mage around to point at their enemies, let alone having one in a populated area tending shop or whatever. And they're not ok with female warriors, according to Sten's dialog. So maybe have a character that escaped, or was rescued by a parent, to avoid the whole serabaas treatment. Bonus points for setting up some serious tension with any qunari squadmates or NPCs you encounter.

From my understanding of qunari culture, I doubt female mages would be treated worse (not better either btw).

The women are not considered oppressed in qunari culture, they are relegated to certain jobs where they will be of most benefit according to the Tamassran. This mirrors the men's role in qunari society, who take on other roles instead. The two form society together, and although there indeed are gender roles, neither gender is seen as lesser compared to the other. A soldier can only fight if the blacksmith has made weapons. A blacksmith can only forge weapons if they have been fed. The farmer can only grow crops if they have been relegated to their role by the Tamassran. And to seal the circle, the Tamassran are vulnerable if the soldiers aren't there to protect them.

Everybody are needed and everybody is equal. There might be strict roles to fulfill, but the lack of freedom is not necessarily outright oppression. This is all according to my views of qunari society from the DA media I've taken in, I'm certainly no BW writer =)

I didn't really get the impression that the sarabaas were seen as equals, more like an unclean, dangerous thing. Maybe they aren't even considered qunari, so the usual gender roles wouldn't apply, but if they do, what I was saying was that female mages wouldn't really have a place. They can't be chained up and shipped off to war, and away from the rest of the population, like the males, so whatever role they play is likely to include a great deal of isolation. It'd be miserable either way - the ones we've seen basically get  mutilated, their horns cut off and their mouths sealed shut, and they're subject to enough mental conditioning (I'm pretty sure they mention some sort of brain washing if you ask the arishok what would happen to Isabella) to make them accept a role that's not much above "war dog", complete with leash and master.

[Dhiro]

Sarabaas aren't considered people, but tools (dangerous ones). So, in light of that, I doubt that the Qun cares about their gender as much as their uses, so females would probably be shipped off to war just like males are.

[Kidd]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I didn't really get the impression that the sarabaas were seen as equals, more like an unclean, dangerous thing. Maybe they aren't even considered qunari, so the usual gender roles wouldn't apply, but if they do, what I was saying was that female mages wouldn't really have a place. They can't be chained up and shipped off to war, and away from the rest of the population, like the males, so whatever role they play is likely to include a great deal of isolation. It'd be miserable either way - the ones we've seen basically get  mutilated, their horns cut off and their mouths sealed shut, and they're subject to enough mental conditioning (I'm pretty sure they mention some sort of brain washing if you ask the arishok what would happen to Isabella) to make them accept a role that's not much above "war dog", complete with leash and master.

Sorry, rushed reading and writing made me lose my own point in there somewhere. I meant more like, once you're born a mage, you cease being male or female in a way. Since being saarebas is a different role altogether, different from any role a man or a woman can live in, your gender is completely meaningless. It will not define who you are or just how hard your mouth will be sewn together - you're a mage, end of story =)

I suppose I could be wrong, but it sounds like an awfully inefficient way of using resources, and qunari tend to be everything but ineffcient in putting their people to good use. Only having men in the army probably comes from the idea that men are generally stronger, and even if a woman very well can become strong enough to be a proper warrior that's a waste of resources in qunari eyes. When it comes to mages however, you couldn't really let a mage of either gender become anything but saarebas, but they'd both fill that role quite neatly without one requiring more time and effort than the other.

What happens to saarebas is incredibly inhumane, I'm just saying gender likely doesn't matter when it's time to save the saarebas from themselves imho.

Darn, some writer input would be awesome here =D

[garrusfan1]

I want to have KOSSITH LI bioware PLEASE