9 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

Yes, he retconned away the possibility for the human noble PC to say they didn't believe in the Maker in DAO. However, Morrigan certainly hasn't been retconned out, and we know that plenty of humans have left Andrastianism for the Qun, an atheistic philosophy. Aveline seems to be teetering on the edge of it, which may be all that's necessary. Aldenon the Wise, he of the second mage item pack DLC, didn't believe in the Maker at all. And being exposed to numerous different beliefs, such as the Qun and Creators, could easily lead one to, if they seemed as convincing as Andrastianism did at first, decide to maintain a certain amount of skepticism about all, so there are quite a few possibilities here, and they wouldn't be at all hard to implement.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[David Gaider]

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[David Gaider]

Vilegrim wrote...
So you setup an irredeemable organisation (and the Maker Cult in general is vile, being at the very least racist, expansionist and repressive, the Templars only being the worst part) and then say we can't do anything about them?

Depends on whether context allows for you to "do something about them". Then we might consider it, as we'll consider any reasonable option at least as a possibility on a per-case basis. In terms of allowing you to consistently express the viewpoint you just did-- no, as I said that's not something we would support.

And to those who seem to be about to drag the thread into an argument about real-world religion-- please don't.

[David Gaider]

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

[David Gaider]

Maclimes wrote...
Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

Even reading the phrase "what is roleplay?" makes something vomit into the back of my throat. So I'd say that.

[David Gaider]

Either the insults and aggressiveness in some of the posts here are toned down or bans will be handed out. I have the power-- I will use it.

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

Ah yes. Because if my views on what Morrigan actually feels differ from your interpretation of her words then it must be a retcon.

As always, sir, you elevate the level of discourse on this topic.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

You can pretty much time the usefulness of any discussion of faith in Dragon Age to the point where certain posters show up and make the thread all about their personal interpretations and everyone else-- including me-- is simply wrong.

That point which has now been reached, I see. Which is too bad, really.

I've explained what I meant on the topic of atheists as honestly and as fully as I can, including my intention. If someone chooses to decide that's irrelevant, as if their views on the subject supercede the writing team's and that going "hurhurhur you forgot your own lines" somehow negates us... well, they've probably forgotten who's writing the game in the interest of scoring points. Hope it works out for them.

Thanks to everyone for the excellent thoughts contributed earlier.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[David Gaider]

Yeah, this thread has gotten out of hand-- predictably. It also doesn't have much to do with DA3 any longer. Should it appear again, I'd caution those people who like to show up and commandeer the entire thread to hammer them with their agenda. Take it elsewhere, folks-- there's a long thread on exactly this topic in the DA2 forum, with exactly the same arguments.