895 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

Yes, he retconned away the possibility for the human noble PC to say they didn't believe in the Maker in DAO. However, Morrigan certainly hasn't been retconned out, and we know that plenty of humans have left Andrastianism for the Qun, an atheistic philosophy. Aveline seems to be teetering on the edge of it, which may be all that's necessary. Aldenon the Wise, he of the second mage item pack DLC, didn't believe in the Maker at all. And being exposed to numerous different beliefs, such as the Qun and Creators, could easily lead one to, if they seemed as convincing as Andrastianism did at first, decide to maintain a certain amount of skepticism about all, so there are quite a few possibilities here, and they wouldn't be at all hard to implement.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[slimgrin]

This should be good.

[Vandicus]

How is the Qun not a religion? The Qunari themselves refer to it as a religion.

They have the Ariqun, which are priests. They believe in the existence of souls as a tenet of their faith.

How does that speak atheistic philosophy to you?


Back OT, belief in a religion or lack thereof seems almost irrelevant to the character here. If the PC worships the default Andraste, how does that change his character? It largely seems that besides Qunari and actual members of the Chantry, religion is rarely if ever the guiding force behind people's actions in Thedas.

I'm personally of the belief that DA will take the "All religions are true" route. Not in the literal sense of the doctrine being accurate, but that the Creators will exist, the Maker will exist, and we already know the Old Gods do exist.

[Xilizhra]

How is the Qun not a religion? The Qunari themselves refer to it as a religion.

They have the Ariqun, which are priests. They believe in the existence of souls as a tenet of their faith.

How does that speak atheistic philosophy to you?

"God-lacking," if you will.

Back OT, belief in a religion or lack thereof seems almost irrelevant to the character here. If the PC worships the default Andraste, how does that change his character?

Um, a great deal? Especially when you begin talking about motivations for fighting in the mage-templar war.

[Sylvanpyxie]

How is the Qun not a religion?

The Qunari do not worship a deity or divine being of any sort. They worship the beliefs of the Qun and solidarity of their society. That doesn't mean they aren't a religion, but it does make them atheists.

I for one would like to see the opportunity to doubt the Maker's existence return again. Playing a Diplomatic Hawke and having every-other line of dialogue mention the Maker or Andraste was relatively irritating in some respects, especially when I was attempting to play a Level Headed Diplomatic Mage that had no belief in the Chantry's teachings or even the Maker's existence. Which, of course, I couldn't do.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:17 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Only if the next Mass Effect lets us show if we believe in God... problem?

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas.

Link?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Only if the next Mass Effect lets us show if we believe in God or not... problem?

In ME1 we got to tell Ashley whether we believed in God or not.

Anyway, I support an atheist player character. If Morrigan and Aveline get to doubt the Maker's existence, so should I.

Not really, all Shepard said was "You know that they say that you never find a athiest in a fox hole, I've been in a lot of foxholes".... what does that even mean? Not to mention Ashley's reply is "Uh huh" as if she doesn't even believe you.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[David Gaider]

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[Maclimes]

I only need the option if it's ever relevant. If my character's religion is never mentioned, I see no reason to shoe-horn in an option to express atheism.

But, if my character's beliefs are ever called out, or asked about, or generally referenced, then yes, I would want the option to say, "No."

In DA2, it seems like it was always assumed that Hawke was an Andrastian (if not a particularly devout one). And I don't actually have a problem with that, per se, since so much of Hawke was predefined anyway. It's just one more drop of sand on the ocean for that one.

But what I'm really looking for is not necessarily the option to be atheist, but the option to be the character I want to be. I don't want anything about my character just pre-written and assumed. Give us more control over our character's past, personality, outlook, and beliefs.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is the Qun not a religion? The Qunari themselves refer to it as a religion.

They have the Ariqun, which are priests. They believe in the existence of souls as a tenet of their faith.

How does that speak atheistic philosophy to you?

"God-lacking," if you will.

Back OT, belief in a religion or lack thereof seems almost irrelevant to the character here. If the PC worships the default Andraste, how does that change his character?

Um, a great deal? Especially when you begin talking about motivations for fighting in the mage-templar war.

Unless we actually are a templar or a member of the Chantry, again I'm not sure how this will impact our decisions. 

Most of the mages probably worship Andraste. Hawke worshipped Andraste. Does that keep them from being pro-mage? I guess from a roleplaying standpoint being Andrastian makes pro-templar a little easier, but it doesn't make being pro-templar required, nor does it make being pro-mage abnormal. To me, personally, the impact on a character's decision making process seems minor to irrelevant.

[Ryzaki]

Maclimes wrote...

I only need the option if it's ever relevant. If my character's religion is never mentioned, I see no reason to shoe-horn in an option to express atheism.

But, if my character's beliefs are ever called out, or asked about, or generally referenced, then yes, I would want the option to say, "No."

In DA2, it seems like it was always assumed that Hawke was an Andrastian (if not a particularly devout one). And I don't actually have a problem with that, per se, since so much of Hawke was predefined anyway. It's just one more drop of sand on the ocean for that one.

But what I'm really looking for is not necessarily the option to be atheist, but the option to be the character I want to be. I don't want anything about my character just pre-written and assumed. Give us more control over our character's past, personality, outlook, and beliefs.

This pretty much.

And no religious autodialogue please. got enough of that in ME3. made worse by the fact that my Shep was an atheist in ME1 so it looks like he found his faith when the Reapers hit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Dubozz]

I can't see world of Dragon Age without highly religious population. It's a part of the setting.

Modifié par Dubozz, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Cultist]

Just add option for every religion and pseudo-religion in the game to say "No!'". This way, everyone will be happy - those who support current religions can support them. Those who hate one of them - could say "no".

[Ryzaki]

@Dubozz  : Me either.

A religious PC on the other hand is a different matter. That should be a choice.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[DiebytheSword]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

That was well said sir. 


I'm very religious, but I hold no hate for things that wingnuts within my religion seem to hate.  In the context of this conversation, I would not use Andraste's teachings to hate my brothers and sisters in faith.  Magic not ruling over man is not keeping the mages in chains, but it is keeping them in check.  Both sides of the conflict are doing things wrong.  Mages cannot be totally free, yet they should not be mistreated because their gift can and does go wild.

Kirkwall was an abomination in every sense of the word.

Having a character that has doubt or straight out does not believe is one thing, but having a character that hates all belief systems and is actively trying to "enlighten" the world into secularism would not be my idea of fun.

[Il Divo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I only need the option if it's ever relevant. If my character's religion is never mentioned, I see no reason to shoe-horn in an option to express atheism.

But, if my character's beliefs are ever called out, or asked about, or generally referenced, then yes, I would want the option to say, "No."

In DA2, it seems like it was always assumed that Hawke was an Andrastian (if not a particularly devout one). And I don't actually have a problem with that, per se, since so much of Hawke was predefined anyway. It's just one more drop of sand on the ocean for that one.

But what I'm really looking for is not necessarily the option to be atheist, but the option to be the character I want to be. I don't want anything about my character just pre-written and assumed. Give us more control over our character's past, personality, outlook, and beliefs.

This pretty much.

And no religious autodialogue please. got enough of that in ME3. made worse by the fact that my Shep was an atheist in ME1 so it looks like he found his faith when the Reapers hit.

I could be forgetting, but when is your faith confirmed in ME3? I don't remember that dialogue.

[Vandicus]

Il Divo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I only need the option if it's ever relevant. If my character's religion is never mentioned, I see no reason to shoe-horn in an option to express atheism.

But, if my character's beliefs are ever called out, or asked about, or generally referenced, then yes, I would want the option to say, "No."

In DA2, it seems like it was always assumed that Hawke was an Andrastian (if not a particularly devout one). And I don't actually have a problem with that, per se, since so much of Hawke was predefined anyway. It's just one more drop of sand on the ocean for that one.

But what I'm really looking for is not necessarily the option to be atheist, but the option to be the character I want to be. I don't want anything about my character just pre-written and assumed. Give us more control over our character's past, personality, outlook, and beliefs.

This pretty much.

And no religious autodialogue please. got enough of that in ME3. made worse by the fact that my Shep was an atheist in ME1 so it looks like he found his faith when the Reapers hit.

I could be forgetting, but when is your faith confirmed in ME3? I don't remember that dialogue.

Yeah I'm aware of the conversation in ME1 with Ashley, but I don't recall anything in ME3. Was it an off hand comment or something, like a curse? (God Damnit Anders )

[Ryzaki]

Il Divo wrote...
I could be forgetting, but when is your faith confirmed in ME3? I don't remember that dialogue.

Shepard makes a number of comments regarding the afterlife and such. I haven't played ME3 in a while but I remember doing a double take in a conversation with Garrus. The final conversation I believe. It's not a confirmation of a specific faith (thank ra for that) but in a general belief.

I had no problem with ME1 and Ashley because a. obvious choices were obvious and b. choices. Could be religious could not be could also do the "no comment" thing.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[snackrat]

Vandicus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...And no religious autodialogue please. got enough of that in ME3. made worse by the fact that my Shep was an atheist in ME1 so it looks like he found his faith when the Reapers hit.

I could be forgetting, but when is your faith confirmed in ME3? I don't remember that dialogue.

Yeah I'm aware of the conversation in ME1 with Ashley, but I don't recall anything in ME3. Was it an off hand comment or something, like a curse? (God Damnit Anders )

It was probably in the final battle talking about all your old squaddies (and/or potentially yourself) looking down from a heaven you don't believe in.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

I get it, the pc is free to express doubt but not wear it on their sleeve as a religious extreme.That makes sense and that's all I was hoping for anyway.

[Wulfram]

All that I want is that expressions of religious belief aren't in dialogue that isn't under player control, and that when they are present, the paraphrases reflect that.

DA2 was pretty close to that, really. Just one of DiploHawke's battlecries was a bit of a pain.

[Vilegrim]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

So you setup an irredeemable organisation (and the Maker Cult in general is vile, being at the very least racist, expansionist and repressive, the Templars only being the worst part) and then say we can't do anything about them?

[Gibb_Shepard]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

That makes sense. I don't think anyone wants to be able to enlighten characters or create a new movement that could rival the Chantry; but being able to express doubt whenever the topic of the Maker comes up is really all i think people here want.