895 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?

Some people hate the Andrastian Chantry. It has to do with this specific fictional religious organization.

Personally, I went through Origins with an atheist Surana Warden, but I also went through Skyrim with a Sithis worshipping Dunmer assassin (who was Moon-Born), and a Tribunal mage (of the Volkihar clan). Simply because my desire is to avoid playing as a protagonist who worships a fictional religion I detest doesn't mean that I hate all fictional religions, or all real life religions; I simply don't see why my mage protagonists need to follow a religion that vilifies them. I don't see why my apostate Hawke was forced to be religiously atheist when my Surana Warden wasn't forced to follow the Andrastian faith.

<_< I was refering to the ORIGINAL POSTER OF THE TOPIC as I already clarified a few posts before your's

[MichaelStuart]

Will being able to play as a Misotheist be allowed?

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] I was refering to the ORIGINAL POSTER OF THE TOPIC as I already clarified a few posts before your's

The same applies. Thinking that the Andrastian faith is vile doesn't mean that a person hates all real world religions, or all fictional religions. The OP seems to detest the Andrastian faith for a multitude of reasons.

[Last Vizard]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.
*snip*

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.

If the Chantry executes people who don't believe in their paritcualr "father figure in the sky" then I wouldn't follow such a cult, infact if the Maker is real then I'd say he is evil... any logical being wouldn't bow down to an evil god, unless they were cowards.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] I was refering to the ORIGINAL POSTER OF THE TOPIC as I already clarified a few posts before your's

The same applies. Thinking that the Andrastian faith is vile doesn't mean that a person hates all real world religions, or all fictional religions. The OP seems to detest the Andrastian faith for a multitude of reasons.

The origonal poster has also demonized real religion plenty of times as well so yes it was a legitimate question.

[aries1001]

Morrigan's view may at first seem to be atheistic, but actually to me it is not. It would be saying that people who believe In the Great Spirit are atheistic while they're clearly not - as I see it. Morrigan and FLemeth do not believe in the father figure in the sky - or in the heavens. As I see this doesn't make them atheists; they just believe in something else than the Chantry and the Maker. And Morrigan clearly believes in nature and the power of the moon. Flemeth and Morrigan believe in the power of nature, the power of herbs and the power of the magic seen in nature.

Edit:

a-theist: someone who doesn't believe in the Maker or someone who doesn't believe in a higher power (of being).
Just because someone in Thedas questions if the Maker exists or even the ways of the Maker, this doesn't mean they're atheist e.g don't believe there is not Maker. Even religious or spiritual people have doubts sometimes...

Modifié par aries1001, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[berelinde]

@Ellestor: Good post! Thanks!

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

I think it's interesting that people who dislike real world religion also do not like made-up video game religion.

I think it's disingenuous to say people hate the Andrastian Chantry because they hate real life religion. The issue (among most fans who dislike the Chantry of Andraste) is that some people have an issue with the Chantry of Andraste specifically, not with real life religion in general. People who find the actions of the Chantry repugnant when it comes to the plight of the elves, the treatment of the mages, or their view of non-Andrastians as "heathens" is why some of us view the Chantry with disdain.

Yes, it's probably a gross oversimplification to lump people who chafe at the idea of a unanimously universal Thedosian religion into one group, no matter what that group is. Some people hate religion. Others are actually quite devout (or not) in real life, but have a hard time accepting an Andrastian player character for any of a number of reasons (see above, but that's only a partial list). And another group simply doesn't want to be locked into playing the same "Maker have mercy upon us" character each and every time. Personally, I like to mix it up, alternating between believers and heretics across multiple playthroughs. Restricting that to a single option removes at least 50% of the game's enjoyment value. Possibly more, because the knowledge that one thing isn't available makes it harder to appreciate the thing that is. It's the reason I don't enjoy playing The Witcher. No matter what kind of character you want to play, it's always going to be Geralt. It's hard to appreciate the "choices and consequences" element when you're stuck in a toon you don't like.

Would it kill anybody to accommodate people who would prefer to decide their character's faith for themselves? It isn't tough. Leave Andraste and the Maker out of their barks and either avoid or provide alternatives to blatantly religious statements like "He's with the Maker." Assuming that the game really isn't about the life and times of an eager chantry initiate, that's about all you need to do. No alternate pathway required. Some players would enjoy the opportunity to tear down the chantry as an institution, but that is a little too big to work in as simple appeasement.

Anyway, I keep saying that I've said all I wanted to say on this subject.

[Last Vizard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

The frontal lobe of the brain doesn't finish developing until around 28-29, Being a mage in a fantasy setting where you are under attack by demons trying to enter your mind I doubt you'd follow any religion....  I heard this voice that said this or that, yeah any logical mage is going to start shooting fire at that guy.

[Aldaris951]

David Gaider wrote...

Either the insults and aggressiveness in some of the posts here are toned down or bans will be handed out. I have the power-- I will use it.

But do you have... UNLIMITED POWAH!!! 

[LobselVith8]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

Yet the Human Noble and the Elven Mage can both express atheist views, and neither one has the same background as Morrigan; in fact, they have dissimilar backgrounds from one another. A person doesn't need to come from a particular background to be an atheist of the Andrastian faith.

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.

Yet the PC in Origins could be one, so there is already a precedent for the protagonist to be an atheist.

[Shadow Fox]

Last Vizard wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.
*snip*

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.

If the Chantry executes people who don't believe in their paritcualr "father figure in the sky" then I wouldn't follow such a cult, infact if the Maker is real then I'd say he is evil... any logical being wouldn't bow down to an evil god, unless they were cowards.

Or they keep they're mouth shut about it out of fear of being tortured and killed Calling people cowards because they don't want to die a gruesome death speaks of offensive  ignorance of how such cultures actually work, a lack of empathy and  just general stupidity.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

There are a multitude of reasons for people to become atheists; they aren't clones of some specific person, who can only become atheist for a specific and narrow reason. Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, there are people who would prefer to have the choice to chose what their protagonist believes in, rather than having the choice made for them.

[Iakus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

Yet the Human Noble and the Elven Mage can both express atheist views, and neither one has the same background as Morrigan; in fact, they have dissimilar backgrounds from one another. A person doesn't need to come from a particular background to be an atheist of the Andrastian faith.

That's just it, Andrastrean faith.  Morrigan may not believe in teh Maker.  Or at least, the Maker as a deity.  But that doesn't mean she believes in nothing (though she celarly doesn't believe in an orderly supreme being)

She does, for example, believe in the Tevinter Old Gods.  Else she wouldn't be bothering with the ritual...

[LobselVith8]

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

Yet the Human Noble and the Elven Mage can both express atheist views, and neither one has the same background as Morrigan; in fact, they have dissimilar backgrounds from one another. A person doesn't need to come from a particular background to be an atheist of the Andrastian faith.

That's just it, Andrastrean faith.  Morrigan may not believe in teh Maker.  Or at least, the Maker as a deity.  But that doesn't mean she believes in nothing (though she celarly doesn't believe in an orderly supreme being)

She does, for example, believe in the Tevinter Old Gods.  Else she wouldn't be bothering with the ritual...

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[Last Vizard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.
*snip*

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.

If the Chantry executes people who don't believe in their paritcualr "father figure in the sky" then I wouldn't follow such a cult, infact if the Maker is real then I'd say he is evil... any logical being wouldn't bow down to an evil god, unless they were cowards.

Or they keep they're mouth shut about it out of fear of being tortured and killed Calling people cowards because they don't want to die a gruesome death speaks of offensive  ignorance of how such cultures actually work, a lack of empathy and  just general stupidity.

And yet there are those people who do have the courage to speak out, knowing that it will result in such a fate.  This being the internet anything you read should be taken lightly however I'm not a coward, infact I've been in several fights because some dick thought he'd feel like a man by picking on my nerd friends at clubs.

The majority of people are cowards, thats just he truth of it because we hide behind societies laws and allow ourselves to be walked all over.  I have a feeling being blunt and honest will result in me being banned so I'd like us to stop here before we derail the thread...

PS. You can have the last word is you wish.

[Shadow Fox]

Last Vizard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

The frontal lobe of the brain doesn't finish developing until around 28-29, Being a mage in a fantasy setting where you are under attack by demons trying to enter your mind I doubt you'd follow any religion....  I heard this voice that said this or that, yeah any logical mage is going to start shooting fire at that guy.

Except the Chantry teaches that the Maker only spoke to Andrastate so a religious Mage wouldn't believe a voice claiming to be the Maker. anyway. Yeah have fun trying to shoot fire at a psychic vision of the Archdemon without looking psychotic and endangering people or any Fade spirit*even ones trying to help you* and see how far you get in life.

[Fallstar]

Maclimes wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Don't play self-inserts.

Problem solved.

Your avatar (and comment) sums up my feeling on this entire thread.

Self inserts are pretty much irrelevant to this? I thought this was about wanting to be able to play an atheist. 

[Iakus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I can't help but suspect that Morrigan is iether screwing with Leliana, or the two of them have different definition of "higher power"

As I said, Morrigan tries to save the soul of one of the Old Gods.  It's clearly more than a corrupted high dragon to her.

Edit: Perhaps the difference is  between  "believing in" and "worship"?

Modifié par iakus, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Iosev]

Morrigan never struck me as an atheist (in the contemporary sense), as she seemed to talk about nature and chaos almost like divine forces. I personally think many of her arguments with Leliana were more of Morrigan being difficult and argumentative, rather than an honest confiding of her religious beliefs.

I personally think that Morrigan seeks the truth of the world, which she doesn't think is found within the Chantry. Instead, she seeks it out by exploring other religious and cultural phenomena, such as the Old Gods, or the Eluvian. Even at the end of Witch Hunt, she seems to hint that Flemeth is something much more ominous than an abomination (perhaps a God or divine being, it's anyone's guess at this point).

[LobselVith8]

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I can't help but suspect that Morrigan is iether screwing with Leliana, or the two of them have different definition of "higher power"

As I said, Morrigan tries to save the soul of one of the Old Gods.  It's clearly more than a corrupted high dragon to her.

Andrastians believe in the existance of the Old Gods as well, but there's a difference between acknowledging their existance, and worshipping them as gods.

[Iakus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Andrastians believe in the existance of the Old Gods as well, but there's a difference between acknowledging their existance, and worshipping them as gods.

That is definitely a distinction worth making, as ancient Tevinter believed in the Maker as well (they did invade the Golden City, after all)

See edit to my earlier post.

[Izhalezan]

iakus wrote...
 It's clearly more than a corrupted high dragon to her.

A chance to fight some coming great darkness? she seems to make it pretty clear that Flemeth has something horrible planned for the world and Morrigan seems to intend to fight that.

[LobselVith8]

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Andrastians believe in the existance of the Old Gods as well, but there's a difference between acknowledging their existance, and worshipping them as gods.

That is definitely a distinction worth making, as ancient Tevinter believed in the Maker as well (they did invade the Golden City, after all)

See edit to my earlier post.

Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.