895 réponses à ce sujet

[Last Vizard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

The frontal lobe of the brain doesn't finish developing until around 28-29, Being a mage in a fantasy setting where you are under attack by demons trying to enter your mind I doubt you'd follow any religion....  I heard this voice that said this or that, yeah any logical mage is going to start shooting fire at that guy.

Except the Chantry teaches that the Maker only spoke to Andrastate so a religious Mage wouldn't believe a voice claiming to be the Maker. anyway. Yeah have fun trying to shoot fire at a psychic vision of the Archdemon without looking psychotic and endangering people or any Fade spirit*even ones trying to help you* and see how far you get in life.

Doesn't Leliana claim she got visions from the maker?

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

[Wulfram]

Last Vizard wrote...

Doesn't Leliana claim she got visions from the maker?

Yes.  She's not exactly orthodox in her beliefs - an aspect of her character which I would like to see explored if she continues to play a role working for the Chantry.

[berelinde]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

Morrigan was trolling Leliana? I knew there was a reason I liked her!

I kid, I kid.

[Fallstar]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Andrastians believe in the existance of the Old Gods as well, but there's a difference between acknowledging their existance, and worshipping them as gods.

This. Equally, non Andrastians can acknowledge that the black city exists, and that there is something special there, whether it's the Maker or something more sinister. (If the magisters were tainted upon entering the black city, perhaps the city is in fact the origin of the darkspawn taint and has always been tainted).

To address another point that has been raised; the Andrastian chantry is a fictional organisation. People can come to their conclusions about it without bringing real world religion into it.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

[Fallstar]

David Gaider wrote...
I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

Would it be correct to say that Morrigan doesn't worship any entities as deities? Exactly what you classify as a 'higher power' is a bit of a grey area in a fantasy universe.

[Shadow Fox]

Last Vizard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.
*snip*

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.

If the Chantry executes people who don't believe in their paritcualr "father figure in the sky" then I wouldn't follow such a cult, infact if the Maker is real then I'd say he is evil... any logical being wouldn't bow down to an evil god, unless they were cowards.

Or they keep they're mouth shut about it out of fear of being tortured and killed Calling people cowards because they don't want to die a gruesome death speaks of offensive  ignorance of how such cultures actually work, a lack of empathy and  just general stupidity.

And yet there are those people who do have the courage to speak out, knowing that it will result in such a fate.  This being the internet anything you read should be taken lightly however I'm not a coward, infact I've been in several fights because some dick thought he'd feel like a man by picking on my nerd friends at clubs.

The majority of people are cowards, thats just he truth of it because we hide behind societies laws and allow ourselves to be walked all over.  I have a feeling being blunt and honest will result in me being banned so I'd like us to stop here before we derail the thread...

PS. You can have the last word is you wish.

Yeah and they die for nothing the thing that ended the witch hunts wasn't speaking out about it*as it did no good* but the King himself finding out about it and putting a stop to it that's generally how it went in religous societies unless you had a higher power willing to help you you tried to not give the Church the wrong idea about you.

being willing to fight doesn't make you brave infact most of the time it will make you look foolish for  escalating a conflict to physical violence.

or it's the knowledge that without laws and people to enforce them  there would be anarchy.

Try living in such a world where people can be burned at the stake and stoned to death for being heretics and see if speaking out about it makes you think you're brave and not just a fool with a death wish.

[Shadow Fox]

Last Vizard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

The frontal lobe of the brain doesn't finish developing until around 28-29, Being a mage in a fantasy setting where you are under attack by demons trying to enter your mind I doubt you'd follow any religion....  I heard this voice that said this or that, yeah any logical mage is going to start shooting fire at that guy.

Except the Chantry teaches that the Maker only spoke to Andrastate so a religious Mage wouldn't believe a voice claiming to be the Maker. anyway. Yeah have fun trying to shoot fire at a psychic vision of the Archdemon without looking psychotic and endangering people or any Fade spirit*even ones trying to help you* and see how far you get in life.

Doesn't Leliana claim she got visions from the maker?

You mean the same Leliana who's personal friends with the Divine and got laughed out of her Chantry cloistor?

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

The point is that Morrigan takes a very explicitly atheistic view (and saying that great powers exist ==/== worshipping them as gods btw) and does so multiple times.  That says that such beliefs (or lack of) exist.  That's backed up with both the Human Noble Warden and the Dalish Warden who both can be open atheists and say so.

-Polaris

[Izhalezan]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

She doesn't really lie about much to you in game, the old god baby making thing is a lie of omission and when it comes time she tells you a bit of it and for the most part seems to be holding back out of fear of you getting involved and thereby killed by something you can't handle like she can.

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

Ah yes. Because if my views on what Morrigan actually feels differ from your interpretation of her words then it must be a retcon.

As always, sir, you elevate the level of discourse on this topic.

[IanPolaris]

Izhalezan wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

She doesn't really lie about much to you in game, the old god baby making thing is a lie of omission and when it comes time she tells you a bit of it and for the most part seems to be holding back out of fear of you getting involved and thereby killed by something you can't handle like she can.

Indeed.  Morrigan is deceptive but she seldom (if ever) lies.  She usually phrases or puts herself in positions where she doesn't have to (or deflects).

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

Ah yes. Because if my views on what Morrigan actually feels differ from your interpretation of her words then it must be a retcon.

As always, sir, you elevate the level of discourse on this topic.

With all due respect,  I think it is pretty clear that Morrigan expresses a very Athiestic view point and it's one that the Noble Warden and Dalish Warden can do as well.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point. Morrigan is an example of an atheist in Thedas; she proves that atheism exists in Thedas. The Cousland and Surana Warden can be atheist as well, and they were raised in Andrastian society; the former among the nobility, the latter in the Circle Tower (for the most part).

People who are raised on religion but become atheist do so later in life because they see things that cause them to question their beliefs a mage Warden being atheist I can buy but A HN,Dwarven,Elven Warden  or Hawke would have little to no reason to be atheist at the begining of the game as they haven't seen anything to make make them question it yet.

There are a multitude of reasons for people to become atheists; they aren't clones of some specific person, who can only become atheist for a specific and narrow reason. Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, there are people who would prefer to have the choice to chose what their protagonist believes in, rather than having the choice made for them.

Except that happens to be the most documented cases for religious folk who turn atheist  they wholeheartedly believe in their religion untill something happens that shakes that belief then they start to question it.*unless they're rebelious teens who just want to ****** off their parents by "claiming" to have no faith* so tell me why a HN,Elven or Dwarf Warden would be atheist at the start of the game?

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

Ah yes. Because if my views on what Morrigan actually feels differ from your interpretation of her words then it must be a retcon.

As always, sir, you elevate the level of discourse on this topic.

You're inclined to be sarcastic, I suppose, but I'm not the one who claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas, and that none of the mages in Kirkwall were insane and stupid.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

I have ears.  I can use them.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

I know right?

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

If it contradicts the game, I have the right to address what a character explicitly says, which is the same reason people did when this was said:

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

Also, considering Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, it makes sense that some fans feel that Hawke was a believer in the Maker.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

I know right?

I am reminded that I should take my own advice.  From last year.  The longer this goes on, the more true that post gets.

Already said my piece here anyway, come to think of it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except that happens to be the most documented cases for religious folk who turn atheist  they wholeheartedly believe in their religion untill something happens that shakes that belief then they start to question it.*unless they're rebelious teens who just want to ****** off their parents by "claiming" to have no faith* so tell me why a HN,Elven or Dwarf Warden would be atheist at the start of the game?

In the case of Morrigan, I expect she was raised that way.  As for the human noble, rebelious teenager is probably not a bad guess given he (or she) is the second child of a very high ranking noble family but in the shadow of the Teryn of Cousland and his eldest son.  In fact the implictation I got in the HN background was that you were considered to be rather 'wild'.  As for the Dalish Warden, apparently the Dalish Warden is young and tends to be a rebellious sort as well and there is a shadow over him/her that few talk about.

My take on the background in DAO at any rate.

-Polaris