895 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

When said writer openly admits to forgetting facts from years ago and says there's no atheists in Thedas despite previous player characters blatantly stating such...well yeah I'll say he might've gotten some things wrong. He's human not a god and the game is a group effort.

He might not have intended Morrigan to come across as atheistic...but she did to me and apparently others.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:09 .

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

You can pretty much time the usefulness of any discussion of faith in Dragon Age to the point where certain posters show up and make the thread all about their personal interpretations and everyone else-- including me-- is simply wrong.

That point which has now been reached, I see. Which is too bad, really.

I've explained what I meant on the topic of atheists as honestly and as fully as I can, including my intention. If someone chooses to decide that's irrelevant, as if their views on the subject supercede the writing team's and that going "hurhurhur you forgot your own lines" somehow negates us... well, they've probably forgotten who's writing the game in the interest of scoring points. Hope it works out for them.

Thanks to everyone for the excellent thoughts contributed earlier.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except that happens to be the most documented cases for religious folk who turn atheist  they wholeheartedly believe in their religion untill something happens that shakes that belief then they start to question it.*unless they're rebelious teens who just want to ****** off their parents by "claiming" to have no faith* so tell me why a HN,Elven or Dwarf Warden would be atheist at the start of the game?

In the case of Morrigan, I expect she was raised that way.  As for the human noble, rebelious teenager is probably not a bad guess given he (or she) is the second child of a very high ranking noble family but in the shadow of the Teryn of Cousland and his eldest son.  In fact the implictation I got in the HN background was that you were considered to be rather 'wild'.  As for the Dalish Warden, apparently the Dalish Warden is young and tends to be a rebellious sort as well and there is a shadow over him/her that few talk about.

My take on the background in DAO at any rate.

-Polaris

True but you can tell that lady in Ostagar you don't believe in the maker regardless of origin (or get into an arguement with her about it as an elf that results in her pretty much telling you to shut up as she huffs and turns away ).

[Shadow Fox]

Izhalezan wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

Because taking what Morrigan says at face value is a good idea.

She doesn't really lie about much to you in game, the old god baby making thing is a lie of omission and when it comes time she tells you a bit of it and for the most part seems to be holding back out of fear of you getting involved and thereby killed by something you can't handle like she can.

That she thinks she can they're a lot of ways that her plan can backfire*like say her child grows to hate her and the world in general because of how she raises it t.* oh and she has no problem sending us to kill her mother*whom she even admits isn't human or an abomination*.

[2leggywillow]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan tends to voice her opinions, like she does about her view on the Circle mages capitulating to the templars. I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect.

Ah yes. Because if my views on what Morrigan actually feels differ from your interpretation of her words then it must be a retcon.

As always, sir, you elevate the level of discourse on this topic.

Look, Gaider, you just wrote her.  As if that gives you any kind of authority on the subject!  Get outta here with crazy talk like that.

[SmokePants]

As an atheist, I can't imagine what kind of a moron could live in Thedas, where you can't walk 4 steps without encountering magic, spirits, or demons and remain an atheist the way I think of atheism. In the real world, none of that exists, so it is very unlikely that there's a deity pulling magic strings. But in a fantasy world the likes of Thedas, all bets are off. If there are "old gods" trapped underground giving rise to Blights, it is logical to conclude that something greater put them there.

Now, I certainly don't have my player characters indulge in the Chantry's dogma when the option presents itself, but that's because my characters are agnostic, not atheists. Because, again, being an atheist in Thedas is ignoring everything you experience in Thedas. That's bad role-playing and I don't see why they should have to indulge your real-world beliefs in a setting to which they simply do not apply. There would be no point other than said indulgence.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

She wanted to resurrect an old god lobsel, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in.she also claimed she didn't use blood magic and low and behold...blood magic ritual.

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except that happens to be the most documented cases for religious folk who turn atheist  they wholeheartedly believe in their religion untill something happens that shakes that belief then they start to question it.*unless they're rebelious teens who just want to ****** off their parents by "claiming" to have no faith* so tell me why a HN,Elven or Dwarf Warden would be atheist at the start of the game?

In the case of Morrigan, I expect she was raised that way.  As for the human noble, rebelious teenager is probably not a bad guess given he (or she) is the second child of a very high ranking noble family but in the shadow of the Teryn of Cousland and his eldest son.  In fact the implictation I got in the HN background was that you were considered to be rather 'wild'.  As for the Dalish Warden, apparently the Dalish Warden is young and tends to be a rebellious sort as well and there is a shadow over him/her that few talk about.

My take on the background in DAO at any rate.

-Polaris

True but you can tell that lady in Ostagar you don't believe in the maker regardless of origin (or get into an arguement with her about it as an elf that results in her pretty much telling you to shut up as she huffs and turns away ).

Yes, that scene is priceless...or when you pass her later and she calls you "HEATHEN!" always makes me smile a bit.  It may be childish but there it is.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

You can pretty much time the usefulness of any discussion of faith in Dragon Age to the point where certain posters show up and make the thread all about their personal interpretations and everyone else-- including me-- is simply wrong.

That point which has now been reached, I see. Which is too bad, really.

I've explained what I meant on the topic of atheists as honestly and as fully as I can, including my intention. If someone chooses to decide that's irrelevant, as if their views on the subject supercede the writing team's and that going "hurhurhur you forgot your own lines" somehow negates us... well, they've probably forgotten who's writing the game in the interest of scoring points. Hope it works out for them.

Thanks to everyone for the excellent thoughts contributed earlier.

yes because that's my tone. Hurr hurr. If anyone's attempting to score points with that statement Gaider it's you.

Now Morrigan not being atheist was your intention I accept that I'm just saying what her lines in game gave me the impression of her being an atheist. I'm so sorry that apparently not bowing to your superiority means I'm being hurr hurr ish.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

I know right?

In a thread that started because Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist, I'm not certain why you are agahst that some fans don't think that the developers are infallible.

[IanPolaris]

SmokePants wrote...

As an atheist, I can't imagine what kind of a moron could live in Thedas, where you can't walk 4 steps without encountering magic, spirits, or demons and remain an atheist the way I think of atheism. In the real world, none of that exists, so it is very unlikely that there's a deity pulling magic strings. But in a fantasy world the likes of Thedas, all bets are off. If there are "old gods" trapped underground giving rise to Blights, it is logical to conclude that something greater put them there.

Now, I certainly don't have my player characters indulge in the Chantry's dogma when the option presents itself, but that's because my characters are agnostic, not atheists. Because, again, being an atheist in Thedas is ignoring everything you experience in Thedas. That's bad role-playing and I don't see why they should have to indulge your real-world beliefs in a setting to which they simply do not apply. There would be no point other than said indulgence.

Depends on what you mean about "Atheist".  If you mean denying that there aren't powerful spirits, magic, and probably old gods, then I agree.  That's not a philosophical position.  That's simply delusional.

However believing (and even wanting to resurrect) an old god is far different from worshiping it as a god.  To me that is what seperates being a believer from a non-believer.  It's a fine line but one worth noting I think.

-Polaris

[Izhalezan]

Emzamination wrote...



She wanted to resurrect an old god lobsel, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in.she also claimed she didn't use blood magic and low and behold...blood magic ritual.

One spell, that seems to barely qualify as technically blood magic from the sounds of it.

[Emzamination]

Izhalezan wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



She wanted to resurrect an old god lobsel, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in.she also claimed she didn't use blood magic and low and behold...blood magic ritual.

One spell, that seems to barely qualify as technically blood magic from the sounds of it.

Sorry I meant 'old magic' <blood magic>

[mauro2222]

Arcian wrote...

It is becoming clear that no one in this thread knows the difference between atheism and misotheism.

Or religion...

They tend to confuse philosophy, faith and gods with religion.

[Fidget6]

People get so attached to these fictional characters they feel they know them, even better than the people who created the characters in the first place....

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

She wanted to resurrect an old god lobsel, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in.she also claimed she didn't use blood magic and low and behold...blood magic ritual.

Andrastians believe in the Old Gods; there's a stark difference between acknowledging that the Old Gods exist, and viewing them as deities to be worshipped. Sparing the life of one doesn't mean that Morrigan worships the Old Gods. Morrigan expresses her views in Origins multiple times, including her conversations with Leliana about their different views:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.


Furthermore, Morrigan clarifies her views:


Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[MichaelStuart]

If I may ask a question

Is there any actual proof that the Maker exists?

[Wulfram]

MichaelStuart wrote...

If I may ask a question

Is there any actual proof that the Maker exists?

No.  This was pointed out as a deliberate decision before the first game was released.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Izhalezan]

MichaelStuart wrote...

If I may ask a question

Is there any actual proof that the Maker exists?

The Chant of Light tells me so, sounds legit enough for me!

[Calians]

Thing's get complicated when people try to make the game too real.

[Heimdall]

MichaelStuart wrote...

If I may ask a question

Is there any actual proof that the Maker exists?

Definitive, undeniable proof?  No.

Personally I think yes, but not as the chantry describes.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan has multiple conversations where she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, I tend to address what she explicitly said.

She wanted to resurrect an old god lobsel, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in.she also claimed she didn't use blood magic and low and behold...blood magic ritual.

Andrastians believe in the Old Gods; there's a stark difference between acknowledging that the Old Gods exist, and viewing them as deities to be worshipped. Sparing the life of one doesn't mean that Morrigan worships the Old Gods. Morrigan expresses her views in Origins multiple times, including her conversations with Leliana about their different views:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.


Furthermore, Morrigan clarifies her views:


Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.

Because morrigan and the bard girl are such Bffl that they tell each other absoloutely everything.If morrigan can't even be honest with the man she's sleeping with then what makes you think she's going to be honest with a woman she hates.She's an old god worshipper lobsel

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[IanPolaris]

I don't think we are making the game too real. I think a lot of us remember the collected lore and look for lore consistancy.

-Polaris

[Fidget6]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

A bit off-topic, but this is actually one of my favorite banters in the entire game. I found myself not siding with either character, and understanding where both were coming from. That really shows how well these characters are written. 

[Calians]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think we are making the game too real. I think a lot of us remember the collected lore and look for lore consistancy.

-Polaris

It's not bad that people do that. But it becomes too knit picky about this and that.

Modifié par Calians, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:25 .