Beware of giant post.
[quote]M25105 wrote...
An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?[/quote]BW purposefully avoided the gods (or divine avatars) walking on earth common to high fantasy, so if that's your point, it's moot. I am not aware of an Old Gods creation myth and even if it there is, their existence being true doesn't automatically make all the stories about them true, so them being gods in the common sense can be considered doubtful, something Morrigan and my main Warden agreed on.
[quote]Spicen wrote...
Yeah, yeah i get it you hate god.
But
DA world is a medival world setting, at that time saying god was wrong
is a death sentence, let alone saying theres no god at all.[/quote]One cannot (and does not) hate someone you don't think exists.
And Thedas treats religion as more of a private affair than medieval Europe and right-wing nutjobs.
[quote]M25105 wrote...
Darkspawns. Hell that alone would give every character reason to believe in something.
[/quote]Erm, no.
[quote]Spicen wrote...
No, most were very religious. I think only
women and poets were against religion- because the society said that
religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write
whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.[/quote]Ouch. Now that's one terribly anachronistic theory if I ever saw one.
[quote]Wulfram wrote...
Well, Hawke commits punishable crimes all the time. Like being an apostate, or living with an apostate.
[/quote]Exactly. Not only isn't everything punishable by death that was in medieval Europe, but even things that are aren't followed through because of game.
[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[quote]M25105 wrote...
Yes, they would.
"Zombie attacks"
Most likely response.
"Oh my God"
"What the ****"
"Holy ****"
"Aaargh"
"Dear God help me!"
[/quote]
Nope
you said everyone bucko. Wrong. First thing I'd go is "Who the ****
created this weapon?" God would be the furthiest thing from my mind. Far
likely it's manmade destruction either working as intended or a whoops.
Now some? Sure some might turn to religion but everyone? No.
The second you mention absolutes is the second you've lost an arguement.
[/quote]Word.
[quote]Cultist wrote...
[quote]Spicen wrote...
Again, you
forget that DA is a medieval age setting. Even doubting the maker is a
punishable crime. Its not the modern world that you can go on and insult
other religions or their Gods. All Bioware is doing is trying to be
realistic, which is highly commendable. Kudos, Bioware.[/quote]
Blood
Magic is forbidden too, yet Blood Mages exist. And is not a punishable
crime - the Warden openly told the priestess that he don't believe in
the Maker, and she just expressed her regret, not started shouting
"HERETIC!", so I guess not believing in the Maker can bring problems,
but not punishable by death. Dwarves and elves live normally believing
in their gods. So this medieval argument is overrated.
[/quote]Exactly.
[quote]Spicen wrote...
Atheists can convice themselves with lots
of home-made logic. Dont know, if you are religious but as a religious
guy in a developed country atheism is something that i face regularly
and its a bit annoying. Even when scientists have said theres no solid
of for or against god, people think they are smarter than scientists and
say theres no god.If Its their opinion, let it be so- its not my duty
to remind them who created the universe. Amen, glory to the
Maker!!![/quote]Home-made logic? Methinks thou knowest not what logic
is. Faulty logic is the very requirement to justify religion beyond a
mere "I just do", you imbecile.
[quote]Spicen wrote...
[quote]wsandista wrote...
You have to be the worst troll on the BSN. Worse than Ctaemobodies or whatever his name was. Please stop trying it is just sad.
[/quote]
Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?
And
the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it
means? I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is
there a problem with that? REALLY?[/quote]As the thread moved on, you
got better, but yes, you were trolling hard. And no, that's not what
you're doing. There wouldn't be a problem if that if you were.
[quote]Cultist wrote...
[quote]Vandicus wrote...
Atheism is borderline nonexistant in Thedas. Period. That is what the setting is. Like it or dislike it, acknowledge it.[/quote]
Then
it's good to know we are not roleplaying common average farmer with
standartized stats, general responses and we know that only general
behaviour is available for us.
[/quote]Flawless Victory.
[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's very simple: The
contemporary notions of atheism and secularism floating around this
thread and others like it pretend that history isn't about cause and
effect.
As such, they can make demands like... "let's fight all
religion!" in a world - Thedas - that isn't remotely prepared to
challenge the moral authority of religion.
The secularism of
the Enlightenment does not happen without the humanism of the
Renaissance, the humanism of the Renaissance doesn't happen without the
breaking down of Church authority during the Reformation, the
Reformation doesn't happen without the various crisis of the Catholic
Church in the previous centuries, the various crisis don't happen
without widespread corruption and politicization of the Church, and
there isn't any classical philosophy to "re-discover" during the
Renaissance if the Greeks and Romans never wrote anything down.
The
problem with these threads is they advocate jumping from the beginning
to the end without anything like the above ever taking place, and this
strains credulity in favor of arguing for what essentially amounts to
wish fulfillment. "I do not like organized religion in real life, and
would take great pleasure in tearing one down in a game."
I say all of this as a real contemporary atheist. But I do not pretend that modern secularism
isn't the result of centuries of slow, inconsistent progress. These are
steps Thedas has not taken yet, and while I'd be interested in seeing
them being taken, in their own way in their own time, I'm not about to
throw my hat in with those who would say all those steps aren't as
important as the end result. Because they're wrong.[/quote]I don't fully subscribe to this. Same with most-not-use-"homesexual"-in-pre-modern-contexts. For the general populace and the grander movements that's undeniably true, but the idea that noone ever selfidentified or was thought of as atheist or homosexual in the modern sense is ludicrous. (For once not faulty) common sense and historical evidence disprove that. Similar goes for silly ideas about uniquely modern beauty standards; much more so even as biology adds to that.
[quote]slimgrin wrote...
I suspect the more practical reason for
not broaching the topic is not to stir the pot. It was the same with
Mass Effect. The player and Ash had a rather blunt discussion about
religion in ME1, to help establish her as a charcter. Some fans liked
this dynamic - thought it was rather bold myself - and so we asked for
more of it in the sequels....nope.
[/quote]Yup, nudity, sex and
religion. Must. Not. Offend. Given their changes regarding these in
ME2/3 and DA2 it's still kind of a wonder to me that they support
same-sex romances at all, let alone as much as they do.
[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm not so sure.
I have no
reason to assume, at this stage, that the events of Dragon Age 3 aren't
set up to begin knocking over some of those dominos. The moral
authority of the Chantry
will be weakened by the events the game (and the interim between it and DA2), I'd wager.
But
we'll see. Even if it does happen, it's only one step of many, and I
highly doubt the Dragon Age series will go on long enough that we find
ourselves in whatever the equivalent of modern times is.
[/quote]Heh, Steampunk!Thedas or Cyberpunk!Thedas would be awesome, but yeah, I agree.
[quote]NUM13ER wrote...
Okay so nice to see the threads being derailed by arguing a completely different topic. Anyway back to the OP...
I
do find it odd that anyone would officially state no atheists/faithless
people could exist. One of my playthroughs (Human Mage IRC) you could
state your beliefs or rather the lack thereof. Morrigan certainly seemed
to be of the opinion an all seeing creator didn't exist and even argued
magic wasn't necessarily evidence to the fact.
Dwarves go to the
stone and believe in ancestor worship as opposed to that of gods. In
other words a legacy is their immortality. Even Qunari, despite being a
religious faction, have no deity. It seems rather silly to claim no-one
doesn't believe in gods in Thedas when there are entire factions that
clearly do not in fact believe in any.
Though I'd be more
worried that a future PC would be Andrastian by default. As (at the very
least) we've been able in the past to denounce a belief in the Chanty's
teachings. I certainly think the Chantry is not only corrupt but is
built on lies surrounding actual people and events. [/quote]This.
[quote]King Cousland wrote...
[quote]Avejajed wrote...
I think it's interesting that people who dislike real world religion also do not like made-up video game religion. [/quote]
Actually
this is something I've noticed too. It's interesting also to see how
people's real-world political views can shape their views on fiction.
[/quote]...Duh?
It's only natural to prefer things you agree with. This does not
preclude being fascinated with other
societies/personalities/what-have-you for a variety of potential
reasons.
[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?[/quote]
Not
directed at me but I have no beef with it. I just want to be able to
play an atheist PC that's not bitter or with some horrible flaw to
"justify" his/her lack of faith.
[/quote]Very much this. No Hollywood Atheists, please.
[quote]EntropicAngel wrote...
I would also like to point out that
the Dragon Age universe was created by Bioware. That means that if
bioware decides that the Maker is real, He's real, and that should not
be something to complain about.
[/quote]They've said numerous
times that they won't say which is which, not that I necessarily trust
them on this. That said, if they go the DCU route, that would be
annoying, but both ignorable and their prerogative. And either way,
whatever the truth of the universe, the point is that until a character
in-universe
knows the truth they should be free to believe whatever they want to believe, and in the case of PC's what the player wants them to believe.
[quote]Cultist wrote...
[quote]iakus wrote...
Not sure I want to read through all these pages of back and forth so I'll just ask here:
Is it the Maker people want to reject so badly, or the Chantry?[/quote]
I
bet most people here who want "atheist" option just don't care. They
start caring when someone says "You must believe in XYZ!" or when
character is forced to support some belief they don't care or even
dislike. Like Mark of the Assassin where you have no option but to
support qunary spy. You cannot say no, can't refuse, your only option is
to accept and agree.
[/quote]Exactamundo.
[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...
There are essentially two ways
to roleplay: you can either imagine an entirely separate character and
go through the game according to their decisions or you can pretend it's
'you' and make the protagonist's choices according to your own
preferences and sensibilities. Both are valid forms of roleplay.
[/quote]Very much so. And many are capable of both, which is apparently doubly unfathomable for many.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Andrastee wrote...
[quote]Obviously
this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's
earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas.[/quote]
Link?[/quote]
If you're curious to see the link, Andrastee, here it is (along with what was originally said):
[quote]
David Gaider wrote...
There
is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it
was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as
them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either
way, it's not really an option we intend to include.[/quote]
It's
odd to see Gaider question why some fans feel that Hawke was "forced"
into being a believer when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the
Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him; there
isn't the same range of choice with Hawke as their was with The Warden.
[/quote]I
remember this all too well from late pre-release on the prior forums. Man, was I relieved when DA:O proved to be
nothing like that terrible rant of Gaider's. ... And it's one of far too
many aspects in which DA2 disappoints.
[quote]ghostmessiah202 wrote...
People in a time where religion
has that kind of power (real world - medieval times) people dont espouse
aitheism, else they get burned at the stake. and as for Hawke saying
those things, you can interpret it as wishful thinking.
Aetheisim
originated in the 16th century (realworld) so before then the idea
hadn't even really occured to anyone. The closest they got was something
approximating agnosticism (sp?). So Hawke saying his mom was at the
Makers side is simply because there isn't an alternative that is either
well thought out or believable.
[/quote]*facepalm* That's plain
wrong. Sure, it was dangerous for most people in most times in most
regions* to espouse such criticism, doubts or full-out denial and
opposition, but most of the great minds throughout history
(philosophers, polymaths, scientists) and their circles of pupils and
colleagues were at the very least agnostic or deistic and many since
antiquity didn't believe in any god(s) of any sort at all. Naturally few
were brave enough to staunchly defend their theories, but one has to
look very hard to find the few of note that had any deeper belief in the
societally acceptable sense than a theistic public front.
And as
far as the common folk goes. Sure, the vast majority believed whatever
was the rage with the clergy at the time, but there are some references
to not formally educated people sprinkled throughout historical accounts
to whom atheism came naturally and didn't have it beaten out of them
(yet).
*Especially wherever Chrisianity took hold, but the other Abrahamists
weren't much better (and Muslims are arguably worse nowadays) and non-monotheistic religions weren't a stranger to
it either, it being a threat to the clerical powers and divine leaders
and all that.
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