895 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination you're seeing God as abstract, in Thedas, they seem to be very real. Think of them as super humans.

The archdemon is real. The child is real.

Exactly my point.

Those were my thoughts to begin with

Just because something is real and has power doesn't mean you worship it (as a god).  That's the essential point.

-Polaris

Of course, never mind the temples, statues, sacrifices, people praying to said statues, people leaving sacrifices of blood and thanks giving in the temples and weekend blood orgies.
 O and <Insert first name here> <God>

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[labargegrrrl]

while i would prefer to have more options with my PC than not...

i can still appreciate them being believers in...whatever. they're my character, not me. that's kind of the point of playing in the first place, isn't it? taking a break from being me?

also, one can be an agnostic or atheist and still appreciate religious art. if we consider games (and their supporting lore) as art, instead of just products for us to consume, then the hate and arguments in this thread seem about as relevant as debating creationist philosophy while looking at "the creation of adam" while standing underneath it, rather appreciating its artistic merits.

[IanPolaris]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

Is it Science?
Really, can't magic just be a force of nature?

Sure, but the way it's presented in Thedas so far has been supernatural.  Not to say that it couldn't be natural, but science doesn't really seem to be Thedas's thing.

It reminds me of the Eberron D&D setting.  Gods are worshipped, but they don't intervene directly in things like in Forgotten Realms.  And yet there's clearly still something out there; divine characters get powers just like they would in any other setting.

Yes but it's 'supernatural' abilities (at least for us) that behave in more-or-less predictable ways making scientific study possible.  We know that because mages in Thedas throughout history have approached magic, fade, and such things in a more-or-less scientific matter.  Everyone agrees that powerful dragons, and powerful Pride Demons exist.  That does not mean they are worshipped as gods.  Thus it's not unreasonble for Morrigan (or Flemeth) to conclude that the old gods exist and are worth cultivating without actually worshipping them.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I'll let Morrigan address this:

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

That's rejection of the Maker, not rejection in the existence of deities. The Old Gods exist. Flemeth exists. Atheism rejects belief in deities. Clearly deities in the settings exist(although the Maker's particular existence is ambiguous). 

How would one define a deity in a fantasy setting? I would say that if they're immortal and have tremendous magical power(ability to warp reality) they qualify. I also observe that Morrigan acknowledges the existence of souls(the entire method by which the Archdemon is normally destroyed is soul obliteration). 

One might not worship the deities, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in their existence.

[Heimdall]

twincast wrote...
I don't fully subscribe to this. Same with most-not-use-"homesexual"-in-pre-modern-contexts. For the general populace and the grander movements that's undeniably true, but the idea that noone ever selfidentified or was thought of as atheist or homosexual in the modern sense is ludicrous. (For once not faulty) common sense and historical evidence disprove that. Similar goes for silly ideas about uniquely modern beauty standards; much more so even as biology adds to that.

 Beauty standards change, not away from a certain baselines, but what was considered beautiful in Rennaissance Italy is not the same as what is considered beautiful now.  That's called cultural evolution.  What you suggest is the denial of cultural evolution.  There are always outliers, nobody can claim a thought or belief is impossible for an individual to have in any given time period, it's a matter of probability.

*facepalm* That's plain
wrong. Sure, it was dangerous for most people in most times in most
regions* to espouse such criticism, doubts or full-out denial and
opposition, but most of the great minds throughout history
(philosophers, polymaths, scientists) and their circles of pupils and
colleagues were at the very least agnostic or deistic and many since
antiquity didn't believe in any god(s) of any sort at all. Naturally few
were brave enough to staunchly defend their theories, but one has to
look very hard to find the few of note that had any deeper belief in the
societally acceptable sense than a theistic public front.

. Actually the relation between great minds and religion has not been as antagonistic throughout history as people tend to believe.  Most scientists saw their work as a way of understanding god not anything that could be described as real atheism.

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination you're seeing God as abstract, in Thedas, they seem to be very real. Think of them as super humans.

The archdemon is real. The child is real.

Exactly my point.

Those were my thoughts to begin with

Just because something is real and has power doesn't mean you worship it (as a god).  That's the essential point.

-Polaris

Of course, never mind the temples, statues, sacrifices, people praying to said statues, people leaving sacrifices of blood and thanks giving in the temples and weekend blood orgies.
 O and <Insert first name here> <God>

By that standard then all High Dragons are gods because some cultists DO worship them.

You can respect the power of a High Dragon without worshipping it and most people in Thedas do exactly that.  No reason why the Old Gods or even the Maker should be different.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination you're seeing God as abstract, in Thedas, they seem to be very real. Think of them as super humans.

The archdemon is real. The child is real.

Exactly my point.

Those were my thoughts to begin with

Just because something is real and has power doesn't mean you worship it (as a god).  That's the essential point.

-Polaris

Of course, never mind the temples, statues, sacrifices, people praying to said statues, people leaving sacrifices of blood and thanks giving in the temples and weekend blood orgies.
 O and <Insert first name here> <God>

By that standard then all High Dragons are gods because some cultists DO worship them.

You can respect the power of a High Dragon without worshipping it and most people in Thedas do exactly that.  No reason why the Old Gods or even the Maker should be different.

-Polaris

What is a god then? If immortality and tremendous power doesn't qualify, even if gods came to talk to us every day irl you could argue everyone is atheist.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I'll let Morrigan address this:

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

That's rejection of the Maker, not rejection in the existence of deities. The Old Gods exist. Flemeth exists. Atheism rejects belief in deities. Clearly deities in the settings exist(although the Maker's particular existence is ambiguous). 

How would one define a deity in a fantasy setting? I would say that if they're immortal and have tremendous magical power(ability to warp reality) they qualify. I also observe that Morrigan acknowledges the existence of souls(the entire method by which the Archdemon is normally destroyed is soul obliteration). 

One might not worship the deities, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in their existence.

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Emzamination you're seeing God as abstract, in Thedas, they seem to be very real. Think of them as super humans.

The archdemon is real. The child is real.

Exactly my point.

Those were my thoughts to begin with

Just because something is real and has power doesn't mean you worship it (as a god).  That's the essential point.

-Polaris

Of course, never mind the temples, statues, sacrifices, people praying to said statues, people leaving sacrifices of blood and thanks giving in the temples and weekend blood orgies.
 O and <Insert first name here> <God>

By that standard then all High Dragons are gods because some cultists DO worship them.

You can respect the power of a High Dragon without worshipping it and most people in Thedas do exactly that.  No reason why the Old Gods or even the Maker should be different.

-Polaris

What is a god then? If immortality and tremendous power doesn't qualify, even if gods came to talk to us every day irl you could argue everyone is atheist.

The true atheist would say:  Nothing.  No power however great is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

[kirvingtwo]

IanPolaris wrote...
Just because something is real and has power doesn't mean you worship it (as a god).  That's the essential point.

-Polaris

This is how I feel about it.
I find it odd that Mr Gaider refers to being able to express 'doubt' but doesn't seem to mention choice.  One could believe that God's exist and choose not to worship them.  I liked in DAO the option for a player character to be able to express their lack of worship.

I haven't played DA2 yet and I didn't realise that taking a certain tone leads to Hawke expressing battle cries that indicate worship.  I find that idea distasteful.  I have DA2 here and I'll still play it but it looks like I might play a sarky Hawke then instead of my preferred good/diplomatic style character.

Modifié par kirvingtwo, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...


By that standard then all High Dragons are gods because some cultists DO worship them.

You can respect the power of a High Dragon without worshipping it and most people in Thedas do exactly that.  No reason why the Old Gods or even the Maker should be different.

-Polaris

I wasn't aware all high dragons were immortal beings able to command armies of dark spume with their mind.I thought it was only the 7, my bad.

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[IanPolaris]

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

Not really.  I am using a definition of atheist that isn't delusional in a magic-fantasy world.  Just because powerful beings exist doesn't make one believe they are gods (ie beings worthy of worship).

The technical definition of atheist is: "One who doesn't believe in god or gods"

The basic definition of a god is:  A power worthy of worship

Thus one can be an athest in a fantasy/magic setting without being delusional.  Such a person denies that ANY being is worthy of worship, which is definitionally the same as not believing in god or gods.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I'll let Morrigan address this:

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

You keep posting that like it means something when the writer says it doesn't.

[saMoorai]

Meh, I'd like the option to be an Atheist, but it isn't required, and I'm not even sure I would choose that option.

The most fun I ever had playing Dragon Age was when I played as a Dwarf who became a devout Andrastian.

[TheJediSaint]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I'll let Morrigan address this:

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

You keep posting that like it means something when the writer says it doesn't.

Since when does the "Word of God(Gaider)" mean anything to athiests?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[IanPolaris]

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

An atheist is one who does not believe in a higher power, not simply one that doesn't believe they should be worshiped. That's something else entirely.

Miriam-Webster says...

a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

b : the doctrine that there is no deity 

And the appropriate definition for Deity in a fantasy world is a being or beings that are worthy of worship.  If you deny that any being is worthy of worship, you ARE an atheist.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

Not really.  I am using a definition of atheist that isn't delusional in a magic-fantasy world.  Just because powerful beings exist doesn't make one believe they are gods (ie beings worthy of worship).

The technical definition of atheist is: "One who doesn't believe in god or gods"

The basic definition of a god is:  A power worthy of worship

Thus one can be an athest in a fantasy/magic setting without being delusional.  Such a person denies that ANY being is worthy of worship, which is definitionally the same as not believing in god or gods.

-Polaris

If you change the definition of the word that it no longer holds true.

Gaider's statement that there are no atheists in Thedas makes plenty of sense when using the original definition. 

Look at the Greeks for example. They acknowledged many deities but only worshipped a few(which few depending on their background). Some deities were even hostile to specific cities(according to their mythos).

[TheJediSaint]

IanPolaris wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

An atheist is one who does not believe in a higher power, not simply one that doesn't believe they should be worshiped. That's something else entirely.

Miriam-Webster says...

a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

b : the doctrine that there is no deity 

And the appropriate definition for Deity in a fantasy world is a being or beings that are worthy of worship.  If you deny that any being is worthy of worship, you ARE an atheist.

-Polaris

So write your own fantasy setting where your defintion is relevant rather than trying to impose it on someone else's.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[Adrian68b]

"The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance."

Mr. Gaider, maybe I could be of some use. I am an atheist and also psychologist. Being interested about religion-atheism debates I read a bit about the topic, and also have some first-hand experiences. Being an atheist doesn't mean at all being a fanatic. Usually atheists are scientists who knew only too well how difficult is to came to an informed, objective viewpoint about any topic. An atheist has no unchangeable beliefs and thus nothing to force upon another person. He has no divine mission to convert others.
In present day there are militant atheists actively involved in movements against threats from fundamentalists, mainly about the freedom of teaching evolution.

The Dragon Age universe resembles mostly Europe during Middle Ages. Being an atheist then was harder especially during Inquisition (accusations of heresy) but not so rare. Most atheists kept their viewpoint far from public life - exactly like Morrigan or Aveline. There was no such thing as an atheistic movement, or activism. Open atheist-religious conflicts never occurred, only religious ones.

In DA case, the religious organizations being less fanatical, I don't see any problem for an atheist to became a member of the Inquisition.
The problem is about the ultimate goal of the Inquisition:
(1) If (as the word implies) Inquisition is about finding a solution (preferably a peaceful, compromising) of the emerging Templar-Mage conflict, there is no problem for any atheist (the avatar or the real person).
(2) If Inquisition is about purging Thedas of any non-believer, any atheist would sense it as a threat.

From my part, if DA3 is about (1) I have no problem to play it, even if the Divine is the leader of the Inquisition; on the other hand if (2) is the case, I would not play it.

In short, the only support DA3 needs in order to be comfortable for an atheist is:
(A) option for an avatar who is not a templar or priest
( neutral dialogue choices (not involving strong chantry beliefs).

That's all. There is no need for an atheistic movement, organization/group. No atheist in DA universe would try to impose an atheistic society (or be uncomfortable living in a religious society).
Also, there is no need for a specific ending (templars or mages prevailing).

Modifié par Adrian68b, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

Not really.  I am using a definition of atheist that isn't delusional in a magic-fantasy world.  Just because powerful beings exist doesn't make one believe they are gods (ie beings worthy of worship).

The technical definition of atheist is: "One who doesn't believe in god or gods"

The basic definition of a god is:  A power worthy of worship

Thus one can be an athest in a fantasy/magic setting without being delusional.  Such a person denies that ANY being is worthy of worship, which is definitionally the same as not believing in god or gods.

-Polaris

If you change the definition of the word that it no longer holds true.

Gaider's statement that there are no atheists in Thedas makes plenty of sense when using the original definition. 

Look at the Greeks for example. They acknowledged many deities but only worshipped a few(which few depending on their background). Some deities were even hostile to specific cities(according to their mythos).

There were Greeks even prominent ones that questioned the belief in any higher power though, and I remind you that the Greeks had "agnostos" or the "unknown god".

The point is that if a definition doesn't make sense in a fantasy setting then that defintion should be disregarded especially if there are other equally valid alternate definitions that do.

If you don't think any being is worthy of worship then you deny the existance of god or gods.  That is the DEFINITION of an atheist.

Just because a person admits that powerful being exist is not the same as believing in them religiously.  It's simply not.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think in a magic-fantasy setting a reasonable definition of 'athiest' is one who does not worship a god or gods.  IE One who does not believe in the existance of a higher power that is worthy of worship.

-Polaris

I would strongly disagree. You're changing the definition of atheist.

Not really.  I am using a definition of atheist that isn't delusional in a magic-fantasy world.  Just because powerful beings exist doesn't make one believe they are gods (ie beings worthy of worship).

The technical definition of atheist is: "One who doesn't believe in god or gods"

The basic definition of a god is:  A power worthy of worship

Thus one can be an athest in a fantasy/magic setting without being delusional.  Such a person denies that ANY being is worthy of worship, which is definitionally the same as not believing in god or gods.

-Polaris

If you change the definition of the word that it no longer holds true.

Gaider's statement that there are no atheists in Thedas makes plenty of sense when using the original definition. 

Look at the Greeks for example. They acknowledged many deities but only worshipped a few(which few depending on their background). Some deities were even hostile to specific cities(according to their mythos).

There were Greeks even prominent ones that questioned the belief in any higher power though, and I remind you that the Greeks had "agnostos" or the "unknown god".

The point is that if a definition doesn't make sense in a fantasy setting then that defintion should be disregarded especially if there are other equally valid alternate definitions that do.

If you don't think any being is worthy of worship then you deny the existance of god or gods.  That is the DEFINITION of an atheist.

Just because a person admits that powerful being exist is not the same as believing in them religiously.  It's simply not.

-Polaris

You're pushing for a redefinition of a word. And no that's not the real world definition of atheism. The point about the Greeks was that people in real life viewed beings as deities while at the same time not viewing them as worthy of worship. What you really need here is a new word. Either way, using the original definition, Gaider is correct.

Modifié par Vandicus, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:30 .

[kirvingtwo]

Adrian68b wrote...

In short, the only support DA3 needs in order to be comfortable for an atheist is:
(A) option for an avatar who is not a templar or priest
( neutral dialogue choices (not involving strong chantry beliefs).

That's all. There is no need for an atheistic movement, organization/group. No atheist in DA universe would try to impose an atheistic society (or be uncomfortable living in a religious society).

This is what I would like to see in DA3.  Options are good.