895 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Emzamination wrote...

Spicen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

All I'll say, and this is directed at nobody and nothing currently being discussed, is how could Morrigan be an atheist if she acknowledges there are Old Gods? Sounds like she's whatever religion worships Tevinter Old Gods.

Does that have a term? It's a pseudo-dead religion since I imagine the dragon cults aren't too dissimilar from them... one's a dragon and the other's a god in dragon form or something. I don't have enough information to clearly stress the connection.

Does she actually acknowledge that there ARE Old Gods, or does she simply acknowledge that there were entities/beings that were WORSHIPPED as Old Gods?

There is a distinction.

No, she acknowledged the existence of Old Gods.

She went out of her way to give birth to an Old god :innocent:

Yes, this is what I don't recall - that speech she gives before the ritual.  I mean, Flemeth is practically worshipped as a goddess in some stories, Morrigan acknowledges her existence, but doesn't acknowledge that Flemeth is a goddess.

[Emzamination]

Adrian68b wrote...

"About Morrigan- She believes in the Old Gods, like it or not beieving in an old god seems anti-atheism to me."

The only thing Morrigan said was about "worth preserving"; and nothing suggesting "worth worshiping". It's the same as wanting to preserve Siberian tigers equals worshiping them.
Also, you don't need to "preserve" a God. If so, is not a God.

Yeah, she totally went out of her way to preserve a god for a religion she doesn't believe in

[Spicen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

All I'll say, and this is directed at nobody and nothing currently being discussed, is how could Morrigan be an atheist if she acknowledges there are Old Gods? Sounds like she's whatever religion worships Tevinter Old Gods.

Does that have a term? It's a pseudo-dead religion since I imagine the dragon cults aren't too dissimilar from them... one's a dragon and the other's a god in dragon form or something. I don't have enough information to clearly stress the connection.

There is a difference between acknowledging that they exist, and viewing them as deities. Andrastians (who believe in the Maker) don't worship the Old Gods, even though they know the Old Gods exist. It's no different with Morrigan.

I assumed that atheism means believing that no god exists. She was a non-atheist, but also a non-believer, pretty grey.

[LobselVith8]

Spicen wrote...

About Morrigan- She believes in the Old Gods, like it or not beieving in an old god seems anti-atheism to me.

Dragons are also worshipped as gods by some cults; that doesn't mean that the people who know they exist worship them. Cailan, Duncan, Alistair, Riordian, and other Andrastians believe the Old Gods exist, but don't worship them as actual gods, even though they call them by that specific name. It's simply their name.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

About Morrigan- She believes in the Old Gods, like it or not beieving in an old god seems anti-atheism to me.

Dragons are also worshipped as gods by some cults; that doesn't mean that the people who know they exist worship them. Cailan, Duncan, Alistair, Riordian, and other Andrastians believe the Old Gods exist, but don't worship them as actual gods, even though they call them by that specific name. It's simply their name.

Difference here is the Old Gods qualify as real gods by most definitions.

Immortality
Psychic communication with priests
Superpowers

One doesn't have to worship them to acknowledge that they are deities.

[Spicen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

About Morrigan- She believes in the Old Gods, like it or not beieving in an old god seems anti-atheism to me.

Dragons are also worshipped as gods by some cults; that doesn't mean that the people who know they exist worship them. Cailan, Duncan, Alistair, Riordian, and other Andrastians believe the Old Gods exist, but don't worship them as actual gods, even though they call them by that specific name. It's simply their name.

Not worshipping a god that exists is not atheism.

[Foolsfolly]

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

[Emzamination]

TJPags wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Spicen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

All I'll say, and this is directed at nobody and nothing currently being discussed, is how could Morrigan be an atheist if she acknowledges there are Old Gods? Sounds like she's whatever religion worships Tevinter Old Gods.

Does that have a term? It's a pseudo-dead religion since I imagine the dragon cults aren't too dissimilar from them... one's a dragon and the other's a god in dragon form or something. I don't have enough information to clearly stress the connection.

Does she actually acknowledge that there ARE Old Gods, or does she simply acknowledge that there were entities/beings that were WORSHIPPED as Old Gods?

There is a distinction.

No, she acknowledged the existence of Old Gods.

She went out of her way to give birth to an Old god :innocent:

Yes, this is what I don't recall - that speech she gives before the ritual.  I mean, Flemeth is practically worshipped as a goddess in some stories, Morrigan acknowledges her existence, but doesn't acknowledge that Flemeth is a goddess.

The interesting concept about that is 'morrigan' is the name of the celtic goddess of death that is both an old woman and a beautiful young woman. - Link (I suggest reading under 'Ulster cycle' for a shocking surprise)

[Spicen]

Emzamination wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

"About Morrigan- She believes in the Old Gods, like it or not beieving in an old god seems anti-atheism to me."

The only thing Morrigan said was about "worth preserving"; and nothing suggesting "worth worshiping". It's the same as wanting to preserve Siberian tigers equals worshiping them.
Also, you don't need to "preserve" a God. If so, is not a God.

Yeah, she totally went out of her way to preserve a god for a religion she doesn't believe in

"There are somethings in this world woth preserving."

                                                                                                   - Morrigan, Daughter of Flemeth

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

The Old Gods are pretty heavily documented by the Tevinters. They have special powers and are immortal, and are documented as having had some sort've psychic way to communicate with their priests(confirmed first hand with Legacy dlc). That qualifies them for deity status. Morrigan may choose to ignore this(but I doubt she did).

To me this means Morrigan is not an atheist. She may not worship the Old Gods, but she acknowledges their existence. If the Old Gods don't qualify as gods, well I don't think anything short of an absolute power god would qualify(most deities in religions don't have absolute power).

This doesn't make any sense. Under these parameters, no one could be an atheist in real life.

[Emzamination]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Lobsel called god a liar, there is no arguing with him.

[Adrian68b]

The atheist viewpoint is about the origin of the Universe. It states that in order to explain the origin and existence of the universe no god is required. Morrigan stated exactly that. Explicitely. For her, what other people call "Old God" is a life form.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Spicen]

Emzamination wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Lobsel called god a liar, there is no arguing with him.

Agreed.

Spicen approves: +100

[Emzamination]

Spicen wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Lobsel called god a liar, there is no arguing with him.

Agreed.

Spicen approves: +100

 

[Spicen]

Adrian68b wrote...

The atheist viewpoint is about the origin of the Universe. It states that in order to explain the origin and existence of the universe no god is required. Morrigan stated exactly that.

No Morrigan said nothing like that. When asked about the creation of the universe by Leliana, Morrigan is unable to answer and tries to change the topic. I have to agree, while i do not like Leliana, she is very good in arguments.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Old Gods are pretty heavily documented by the Tevinters. They have special powers and are immortal, and are documented as having had some sort've psychic way to communicate with their priests(confirmed first hand with Legacy dlc). That qualifies them for deity status. Morrigan may choose to ignore this(but I doubt she did).

To me this means Morrigan is not an atheist. She may not worship the Old Gods, but she acknowledges their existence. If the Old Gods don't qualify as gods, well I don't think anything short of an absolute power god would qualify(most deities in religions don't have absolute power).

This doesn't make any sense. Under these parameters, no one could be an atheist in real life.

How so?

The divine powers of the Old Gods are so widely known that its like smacking you in the face. They exist, they're immortal, they're telepathic, they have super powers.

Do we have anything in real life in a religion where one of the deities goes around every couple hundred years demonstrating their divine power?

No real life deity is documented like the Tevinters, nor do we have ancient priests of them locked away in Warden prisons telling us that the Old Gods were speaking to them mentally. 

[Spicen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Old Gods are pretty heavily documented by the Tevinters. They have special powers and are immortal, and are documented as having had some sort've psychic way to communicate with their priests(confirmed first hand with Legacy dlc). That qualifies them for deity status. Morrigan may choose to ignore this(but I doubt she did).

To me this means Morrigan is not an atheist. She may not worship the Old Gods, but she acknowledges their existence. If the Old Gods don't qualify as gods, well I don't think anything short of an absolute power god would qualify(most deities in religions don't have absolute power).

This doesn't make any sense. Under these parameters, no one could be an atheist in real life.

And no one is. People claim to be atheists just to troll religious people or to mock tradition and culture.

Tell me when even scientists claim that they have no proof against the existence of God how come you people have?

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Morrigan doesn't believe the Maker exists, nor does she believe the Old Gods are a higher power than herself. Flemeth qualifies for deity status by virtue of immortality and super powers. Morrigan, by all accounts, is part of a possession clone doll series that Flemeth uses as one way to sustain her immortality. It is very well possible that Morrigan views her self(with her magic powers and potential to reach Flemeth's power level) as a god. If she is like Flemeth, she may very well be one.

Modifié par Vandicus, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[Spicen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Why didnt you quote the entire chat? At the end morrigan says sth like " i dont want to continue on this topic." Something which we see in RW atheists too.

[Spicen]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Morrigan doesn't believe the Maker exists, nor does she believe the Old Gods are a higher power than herself. Flemeth qualifies for deity status by virtue of immortality and super powers. Morrigan, by all accounts, is part of a possession clone doll series that Flemeth uses as one way to sustain her immortality. It is very well possible that Morrigan views her self(with her magic powers and potential to reach Flemeth's power level) as a god. If she is like Flemeth, she may very well be one.

Can happen.

[Shadow Fox]

Spicen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm sorry. You guys clearly want to argue but the term isn't abstract. They're called Old GODS. Merely acknowledging them as deities (gods) shows she isn't atheist she just doesn't believe in the Andrastian Maker. Likely her mother's influence more so than the Maker's existence or lack there of.

I honestly don't think there's an atheist in the entire game. The closest might be Shale. And that's only because I don't remember Shale talking about the Stone, Maker, or anything similar. It's entirely possible Shale doesn't give a holy goddamn on the subject. Being functionally immortal with no past can do that to you.

Actually, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in a higher power:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Why didnt you quote the entire chat? At the end morrigan says sth like " i dont want to continue on this topic." Something which we see in RW atheists too.

Or she could have been trolling Leiliana.:innocent:

[LobselVith8]

Spicen wrote...

Why didnt you quote the entire chat? At the end morrigan says sth like " i dont want to continue on this topic." Something which we see in RW atheists too.

If you want the entire conversations, here they are. As Morrigan explains her views to Leliana:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

Furthermore, she clarifies her views:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Why didnt you quote the entire chat? At the end morrigan says sth like " i dont want to continue on this topic." Something which we see in RW atheists too.

If you want the entire conversations, here they are. As Morrigan explains her views to Leliana:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

Furthermore, she clarifies her views:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

The writer said that doesn't mean what you think it does<_< not that it will stop you from saying it does.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

<snip>


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

Word of God :innocent: