895 réponses à ce sujet

[formaristarry]

Maclimes wrote...

I only need the option if it's ever relevant. If my character's religion is never mentioned, I see no reason to shoe-horn in an option to express atheism.

But, if my character's beliefs are ever called out, or asked about, or generally referenced, then yes, I would want the option to say, "No."

In DA2, it seems like it was always assumed that Hawke was an Andrastian (if not a particularly devout one). And I don't actually have a problem with that, per se, since so much of Hawke was predefined anyway. It's just one more drop of sand on the ocean for that one.

But what I'm really looking for is not necessarily the option to be atheist, but the option to be the character I want to be. I don't want anything about my character just pre-written and assumed. Give us more control over our character's past, personality, outlook, and beliefs.

Was going to throw in my 2c, but you summed it up quite nicely for me here.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

All that I want is that expressions of religious belief aren't in dialogue that isn't under player control, and that when they are present, the paraphrases reflect that.

DA2 was pretty close to that, really. Just one of DiploHawke's battlecries was a bit of a pain.

I agree. Although to be fair, I find it to be a lot less annoying if the character is - as an origin - affiliated with the Chantry. It makes sense for that background to have faith in the Chantry.

But mage-Hawke was an apostate - there is no reason not to have a Morrigan like view on Andraste, even with Liandra's faith in the Maker.

[Heimdall]

Vilegrim wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

So you setup an irredeemable organisation (and the Maker Cult in general is vile, being at the very least racist, expansionist and repressive, the Templars only being the worst part) and then say we can't do anything about them?

I think you're seeing a problem with the religion when the real problem is in the people who use that tradition to their advantage or take it to extremes.  I find it astounding how few people can distinguish between the Andrastrian religion and the institution of the Chantry that claims to serve it.  <_<

Point being, one can easily worship the Maker and Andraste while disagreeing with the Chantry's interpretation.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Spicen]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Spicen wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

Flame bait right here.

[Chromie]

Spicen wrote...
Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

Makes about as much sense as God creating the universe.

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

0/10. Don't even try.

[David Gaider]

Vilegrim wrote...
So you setup an irredeemable organisation (and the Maker Cult in general is vile, being at the very least racist, expansionist and repressive, the Templars only being the worst part) and then say we can't do anything about them?

Depends on whether context allows for you to "do something about them". Then we might consider it, as we'll consider any reasonable option at least as a possibility on a per-case basis. In terms of allowing you to consistently express the viewpoint you just did-- no, as I said that's not something we would support.

And to those who seem to be about to drag the thread into an argument about real-world religion-- please don't.

[Spicen]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

0/10. Don't even try.

Try what exactly?

[Spicen]

Skelter192 wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

Makes about as much sense as God creating the universe.

Yeah, yeah i get it you hate god.

But DA world is a medival world setting, at that time saying god was wrong is a death sentence, let alone saying theres no god at all.

[Ridwan]

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

[Cultist]

David Gaider wrote...
Depends on whether context allows for
you to "do something about them". Then we might consider it, as we'll
consider any reasonable option at least as a possibility on a per-case
basis. In terms of allowing you to consistently express the viewpoint you just did-- no, as I said that's not something we would support.

And to those who seem to be about to drag the thread into an argument about real-world religion-- please don't.

So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

Modifié par Cultist, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Spicen]

David Gaider wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
So you setup an irredeemable organisation (and the Maker Cult in general is vile, being at the very least racist, expansionist and repressive, the Templars only being the worst part) and then say we can't do anything about them?

And to those who seem to be about to drag the thread into an argument about real-world religion-- please don't.

Ok guv, i will avoid it. You have already made your stance pretty clear. A stance i am happy with. So yeah, no arguments.

[syllogi]

While it would be kind of silly, for instance, for a character in Thedas to say that they don't believe in magic, when, even if they haven't seen it in use firsthand, there's enough evidence to say that it is real, belief in the Maker should be treated like any other faith in a higher power, in that some folks just aren't going to have the same beliefs as others.

While I understand what Mr Gaider is saying about modern "political" atheism, I think it would be interesting to see philosophers, mages, or other critical thinkers question the existence of a single omnipotent deity.

[Ryzaki]

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

[Spicen]

Cultist wrote...

So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

Yup, thats about it.

Again, you forget that DA is a medieval age setting. Even doubting the maker is a punishable crime. Its not the modern world that you can go on and insult other religions or their Gods. All Bioware is doing is trying to be realistic, which is highly commendable. Kudos, Bioware.

[The dead fish]

David Gaider wrote...

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Well said. And this is exactly what they seek. To be able to express anti-religious feelings. Because if you are not forced to say you believe in the maker, there's no reason your pc is necessarily religious. Atheism is just an excuse.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:28 .

[Mazebook]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

As an atheist myself, I have no problem with my Avatar not expressing my viewpoints about the Real World.
DA is a fantasy Game where Magic and impossible things happen all the time, I doubt i would be an atheist myself in such a world.

But it would be nice to have a side character in the world who is just very scientific and tries to explain the world through such reasoning. A funny quirky proffessor  that is determend to explain all supernatural things through scientific sensibilties. 
I think that would be hilarious.

[Ridwan]

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

Darkspawns. Hell that alone would give every character reason to believe in something.

[Spicen]

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

How do you know there were atheists and that they shut upeed? Links please(not wikipedia).

No, most were very religious. I think only women and poets were against religion- because the society said that religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.

[Ryzaki]

M25105 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

Darkspawns. Hell that alone would give every character reason to believe in something.

So if we saw zombies everyone would all of a sudden turn religious? Really? 

Plus they have mages. Mages who can already do horrible things turn a man inside out, raise the dead, make blood boil in your veins. Far more likely one of them did it than some invisible diety they can't see.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Xilizhra]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

Oh, I'm not out for organizing an attack against all religion. The Dalish and dwarven ones seem quite benign (aside from the caste system in the latter case), and the Old God cults would only be opponents of circumstance. What I'm opposed to on an organizational level is Andrastianism and the Qun; obviously the latter isn't a problem, so the only thing I'd carry an issue with is the former. Really, since the odds are that the Chantry will be the primary religious paradigm being dealt with in this came, all I'm interested in is disbelieving in the Maker.

[Wulfram]

Spicen wrote...

Again, you forget that DA is a medieval age setting. Even doubting the maker is a punishable crime.

Well, Hawke commits punishable crimes all the time.  Like being an apostate, or living with an apostate.

[David Gaider]

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

[Ryzaki]

Spicen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

How do you know there were atheists and that they shut upeed? Links please(not wikipedia).

No, most were very religious. I think only women and poets were against religion- because the society said that religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.

Simply because no one is ALL of something. It's simple human nature. Everyone will not agree on X or why. But here wikipedia. It has sources http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_atheism

And I never agured most were very religious. Its where you say EVERYONE was something that you're wrong. Only thing all human beings will do is die.