895 réponses à ce sujet

[Adrian68b]

"The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure
Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic."

It states that in order to explain the origin and existence of the universe no god is required.

Of course, Morrigan doesn't use terms like universe and origin. But in the essence is the same statement.
Being an atheist doesn't mean KNOWING all about "Life, Universe and Everything" (quoting Douglas Adams). Of course Morrigan has no final explanation. No atheist has such explanation. But THAT is the difference between an atheist and a believer. A believer IS CONVINCED that his belief is THE FINAL EXPLANATION (God X created the world). An atheist don't need such an explanation don't believe such thing but has no final explanation. Only a partial one.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .

[Shadow Fox]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

<snip>


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

Word of God :innocent:

<3+100

[Vandicus]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

<snip>


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

Word of God :innocent:

Seriously you can argue all you want about it possibly being a retcon(though I disagree for the reasons I've previously stated), but pretending its a fact is just plain silly. 

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

Yes you should but you won't.

[Ellestor]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I don't understand the connection. Seems like you might as well say there's clearly fairies on Earth because magnets work.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Really, can't magic just be a force of nature?

Sure, but the way it's presented in Thedas so far has been supernatural.

How so?

I don't even know how that word can be applied to anything imaginable. Once you find that a thing exists or is possible, what sort of criteria makes it ‘supernatural’? Or ‘unnatural’, for that matter?

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

"The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure
Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic."

It states that in order to explain the origin and existence of the universe no god is required.

Of course, Morrigan doesn't use terms like universe and origin. But in the essence is the same statement.

Morrigan, being a magic reality warping potential immortal, doesn't believe in laws, least of all the laws of physics. 


But seriously, disbelieving in the Maker is not the same as being an atheist. Religions irl don't always have creation stories. The Tevinters don't have creation stories. Denial of a creation story does not = rejection of the existence of deities. Its pretty clear that the Old Gods are gods. What plausible reason would a person have to think they're not gods?

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In a thread that started because Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist, I'm not certain why you are agahst that some fans don't think that the developers are infallible.

Developers can change theier minds you know? Hideaki Anno has flip flopped on how Evangelion ended before just saying that it was open to interpatation. Point is that the creator/writer has final say on the characters if Gaider said the Warden died choking on their fork/spoon it'd be cannon regardless of the fandom's wishes.

I don't see the issue of contention here if you acknowledge it's a recton of what was previously established for the character.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Shadow Fox]

Ellestor wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I don't understand the connection. Seems like you might as well say there's clearly fairies on Earth because magnets work.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Really, can't magic just be a force of nature?

Sure, but the way it's presented in Thedas so far has been supernatural.

How so?

I don't even know how that word can be applied to anything imaginable. Once you find that a thing exists or is possible, what sort of criteria makes it ‘supernatural’? Or ‘unnatural’, for that matter?

Spirits&demons=Supernatural

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

[MorningBird]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

Reasonable doubt of Morrigan's sincerity based off her in-game actions and dialogue that perfectly demonstrate her tendency to habitually lie and/or withhold the whole truth from the Warden?  Plus DG's word as her writer that you shouldn't take everything she says at face value?

But I mean, if you want to go on ignoring that, by all means. I've been reading this thread for pages and it is HEADACHE-inducing.

*poofs*

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In a thread that started because Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist, I'm not certain why you are agahst that some fans don't think that the developers are infallible.

Developers can change theier minds you know? Hideaki Anno has flip flopped on how Evangelion ended before just saying that it was open to interpatation. Point is that the creator/writer has final say on the characters if Gaider said the Warden died choking on their fork/spoon it'd be cannon regardless of the fandom's wishes.

I don't see the issue of contention here if you acknowledge it's a recton of what was previously established for the character.

Because  when the guy writing the stuff tells  you you're wrong you're wrong end of debate.

[Vandicus]

Ellestor wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I've always thought atheism in a setting like Thedas or, say, standard D&D comes off pretty much as Flat Earth Atheist. And this is as an atheist in real life. Doubt is one thing, distrust of the Chantry is another, but clearly there's something out there that allows people to blow stuff up with their brains.

I don't understand the connection. Seems like you might as well say there's clearly fairies on Earth because magnets work.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Really, can't magic just be a force of nature?

Sure, but the way it's presented in Thedas so far has been supernatural.

How so?

I don't even know how that word can be applied to anything imaginable. Once you find that a thing exists or is possible, what sort of criteria makes it ‘supernatural’? Or ‘unnatural’, for that matter?

You might have a point if this was a physics based magic universe.

Magic only has three rules. 

http://dragonage.wik..._Rules_of_Magic 

The Tevinters broke the second, and Leliana broke the third. 

Regardless of semantical debate about "natural" vs "supernatural", characters that are of power equivalent to gods in religions in real life are regarded as true gods in fantasy. One might redefine the meaning of god, but for all intents and purposes fantasy settings generally leave it as it(and thus in settings with true gods atheism is nonexistant. Nonworship occurs, but outright disbelief in the existence of gods does not occur).

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I'm just going to throw in my two cents here, and it will be enough. Because it's threads like these I generally avoid, since it's one of the two topics on the internet that tend to bring out the worst in people.

I think any opportunity to give more control of the PC to the player is a one worth exploring, that that includes their political, social, moral, and religious beliefs.

I usually play characters who opt out of voicing an opinion on the matter, if given the option, unless I have something specific in mind for that character when it comes to those sorts of things for say, Shepard and the Warden (usually I don't, though). But the idea of having the option there is nice.

I personally never really paid Attention to Hawke's use of religious dialogue because I myself grew up in a community where such language was commonplace, so I almost don't hear it anymore (like some people say "like" or "you know" all the time). But I can understand why it might bother some people if they had something in mind for Hawke but weren't given the option.

But, I believe there are many interpretations to one's faith and their belief system, and they may not agree with even others who claim to be fellow believers (so an Andrastian doesn't have to agree with the Templars and the Chantry). I know some people don't feel that way, but after living in a community of people with diverse philosophical, religious, education, and cultural backgrounds, this is the general conclusion I have reached based on that experience and the type of person I happen to be.

I appreciate Mr. Gaider's input into the discussion and his attempt to try and keep things controlled and civil.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The writer said that doesn't mean what you think it does<_< not that it will stop you from saying it does.

Gaider also said there were no insane and stupid mages in Dragon Age II and that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas; he isn't infallible.

[Shadow Fox]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi and Dalish boons were'nt handwaved they just didn't last.

[Emzamination]

MorningBird wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

Reasonable doubt of Morrigan's sincerity based off her in-game actions and dialogue that perfectly demonstrate her tendency to habitually lie and/or withhold the whole truth from the Warden?  Plus DG's word as her writer that you shouldn't take everything she says at face value?

But I mean, if you want to go on ignoring that, by all means. I've been reading this thread for pages and it is HEADACHE-inducing.

*poofs*

^ Perfect

[Adrian68b]

Sorry but I did not wrote Morrigan's lines. I just analyzed them, and the statement is atheistic.

But I really don't understand what's the big problem. Clearly David forgot about those 2-3 lines. Or maybe somebody else wrote it because he/she wanted to surprise the players. So what? Do any of you have perfect memory?
Even if Morrigan IS atheist, how this fact alters the game? Thedas as world is still a faithful one. There is still no need to create atheistic societies, schools or social behaviors.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi boon and the Dalish boon were rectonned.

[Emzamination]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Word of God :innocent:

Like I said before, I don't see why I should dismiss what Morrigan says multiple times simply because this thread rose up after Gaider claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas. I suppose the writers could handwave Morrigan's views like they did with the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, Leliana's death, Oghren's death, the deaths of Anders and Justice, ect. Rectons and handwaves happen all the time in Dragon Age.

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi and Dalish boons were'nt handwaved they just didn't last.

Alistair says the dalish lands didn't last but he's working on fixing the problem because he owes it to the Dalish warden.

The Magi boon is still up in the air as meredith states Alistair did indeed declare the circle free iirc.

But David said a while ago that each boon would be honored in the next game, even the Teryn

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The writer said that doesn't mean what you think it does<_< not that it will stop you from saying it does.

Gaider also said there were no insane and stupid mages in Dragon Age II and that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas; he isn't infallible.

Considering people have argued that what said mages did was reasonable in the hellhole that is Kirkwall I'd say he wasn't lying.

Even so the writer is God of the universe and you are just a lowly pissant in comparison.So the writer's view>yours

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the issue of contention here if you acknowledge it's a recton of what was previously established for the character.

Because  when the guy writing the stuff tells  you you're wrong you're wrong end of debate.

Yet you admit he rectonned Morrigan's character; you can't have it both ways. And Gaider has been proven wrong before by fans:

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi boon and the Dalish boon were rectonned.

Da2 disagrees with that assumption. see above ^

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi boon and the Dalish boon were rectonned.

For good reason as in Thedas such Boons wouldn't last.

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

Sorry but I did not wrote Morrigan's lines. I just analyzed them, and the statement is atheistic.

Her statements are either non-worship or disbelief in a particular deity(in this case the Maker). That does not constitute atheism. Morrigan does not reject the existence of the Old Gods, nor does she deny that they are gods(she never quibbles over the name Old God, which is tacit acceptance of terminology). The Old Gods are gods. Unless you mean to imply Morrigan for some reason has a highly specific version of what a god is, and believes no such version of her particular definition of god exists, then she is not an atheist.