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[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Alistair says the dalish lands didn't last but he's working on fixing the problem because he owes it to the Dalish warden.

Which rectons the Hinterlands ending, and ignores the US ending where Marethari was given the Hinterlands.

Emzamination wrote...

The Magi boon is still up in the air as meredith states Alistair did indeed declare the circle free iirc.

But David said a while ago that each boon would be honored in the next game, even the Teryn

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No boons have been handwaved Those are suppose to be executed in Da3

The Magi boon and the Dalish boon were rectonned.

Magi boon


Still looking for the Dalish

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the issue of contention here if you acknowledge it's a recton of what was previously established for the character.

Because  when the guy writing the stuff tells  you you're wrong you're wrong end of debate.

Yet you admit he rectonned Morrigan's character; you can't have it both ways. And Gaider has been proven wrong before by fans:

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

I said he might have retconned her in response to your assumption that fictional worlds' lore are ironclad and not subject to the various retcons that all fiction endures but Gaider has clearly said it's not a retcon and you're misinterpeting things I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Alistair says the dalish lands didn't last but he's working on fixing the problem because he owes it to the Dalish warden.

Which rectons the Hinterlands ending, and ignores the US ending where Marethari was given the Hinterlands.

Emzamination wrote...

The Magi boon is still up in the air as meredith states Alistair did indeed declare the circle free iirc.

But David said a while ago that each boon would be honored in the next game, even the Teryn

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

No, every circle across thedas has withdrawn from the chantry.Templar/mage war remember.I can Imagine the magi boon will play a part in Da3 since it's the perfect setting.

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

How does that constitute a retcon.

A king standing there and saying "X will be done" does not guarentee it will be done. The Chantry resisted/is resisting his demands. We'll learn how that plays out in DA 3. 

[Adrian68b]

"Her statements are either non-worship or disbelief in a particular deity(in this case the Maker). That does not constitute atheism. Morrigan does not reject the existence of the Old Gods, nor does she deny that they are gods(she never quibbles over the name Old God, which is tacit acceptance of terminology). The Old Gods are gods. Unless you mean to imply Morrigan for some reason has a highly specific version of what a god is, and believes no such version of her particular definition of god exists, then she is not an atheist."

Here is my simple argument. The fact that people called some animals or life forms "Gods" means nothing. During prehistorical civilizations, a lots of animals were worshiped as GODS. Almost everywhere. Cats, tigers, lions, snakes, frogs, ravens, eagles. Is a really long list. How many of these animals are still considered gods?
Suppose the Old Gods are some ancient species of Dragons. Or maybe they are some spirit possessed dragons. Morrigan is interested to preserve them. That is all.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

Or it just didn't last long.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

Sorry but I did not wrote Morrigan's lines. I just analyzed them, and the statement is atheistic.

Her statements are either non-worship or disbelief in a particular deity(in this case the Maker). That does not constitute atheism. Morrigan does not reject the existence of the Old Gods, nor does she deny that they are gods(she never quibbles over the name Old God, which is tacit acceptance of terminology). The Old Gods are gods. Unless you mean to imply Morrigan for some reason has a highly specific version of what a god is, and believes no such version of her particular definition of god exists, then she is not an atheist.

You realize the codex on the Old Gods has scholars view the Old Gods as "ancient dragons," and not literal gods, right? Simply because they have power doesn't make them gods in the world of Thedas.

[Emzamination]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

How does that constitute a retcon.

A king standing there and saying "X will be done" does not guarentee it will be done. The Chantry resisted/is resisting his demands. We'll learn how that plays out in DA 3. 

^ This

[falloutx]

I agree 100% with David Gaider.

[Shadow Fox]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

How does that constitute a retcon.

A king standing there and saying "X will be done" does not guarentee it will be done. The Chantry resisted/is resisting his demands. We'll learn how that plays out in DA 3. 

If it goes against his interpatation it's a retcon.

[terdferguson123]

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.


The point here is that the very idea of Atheism is a fools concept for people who need to take everything to an extreme view point. And no, I am not religious at all. I just find it extremely strange that Atheists who spend so much of their lives expressing why those with faith never have reasons for it, yet Atheists claim that their is no god without any way to prove that themselves. Ironic isn't it? Frankly, the best possible answer one can give on the subject is that they don't know yet, and until that knowing comes it's best not to get into anyones business on either end and just say " I have no way of knowing whether a god exists or not, not enough proof can be made on either side". That is the smartest and the most scientific choice that exists on this topic.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

Or it just didn't last long.

That doesnt even make any sense. Did you even read what I addressed, or are you too busy disagreeing with me to actually read what I write?

[MorningBird]

hey, you know what else was a retcon?  The city elf boon, because you know... Shianni was MURDERED and stuff WENT TO POT.

*never getting over that I am sorry sobs*

Oh wait... a realistic world reaction to an unrealistic 'everyone gets what they want' happy-ending expectation makes perfect sense in a dark fantasy game, doesn't it?

CARRY ON, I will just continue shedding tears over here in this tiny corner of the internet.

Modifié par MorningBird, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

If it goes against his interpatation it's a retcon. 

If it contradicts every single outcome for the Magi boon, it's a recton.

[Adrian68b]

"I think the OP doesn't really understand what an Atheist is tbh. Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist."

Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple.

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Her statements are either non-worship or disbelief in a particular deity(in this case the Maker). That does not constitute atheism. Morrigan does not reject the existence of the Old Gods, nor does she deny that they are gods(she never quibbles over the name Old God, which is tacit acceptance of terminology). The Old Gods are gods. Unless you mean to imply Morrigan for some reason has a highly specific version of what a god is, and believes no such version of her particular definition of god exists, then she is not an atheist."

Here is my simple argument. The fact that people called some animals or life forms "Gods" means nothing. During prehistorical civilizations, a lots of animals were worshiped as GODS. Almost everywhere. Cats, tigers, lions, snakes, frogs, ravens, eagles. Is a really long list. How many of these animals are still considered gods?
Suppose the Old Gods are some ancient species of Dragons. Or maybe they are some spirit possessed dragons. Morrigan is interested to preserve them. That is all.

Cats, tigers, lions, snakes, frogs, ravens, and eagles don't have super powers. Nor are they immortal. The way in which gods are defined are these two factors. If you deny the existence of gods because you refuse to apply the term to anything, that's not really atheism. Atheism is non-belief in the gods portrayed by all religions. The Old Gods had a functioning religion much like Forgotten Realms deities though. 

To simply redefine godhood to maintain the belief that gods don't exist would be like walking around Thedas and saying magic isn't really magical because I refuse to consider magic magic.

[LobselVith8]

terdferguson123 wrote...

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.

In Origins, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; the Cousland and Surana Warden can express that they don't believe in the Maker. It's an atheist point of view that's provided by these characters.

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

"I think the OP doesn't really understand what an Atheist is tbh. Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist."

Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple.

So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.


You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was declared free, but rectonned into remaining under Chantry control, which contradicts the US ending where Greagoir capitulates to the ruler, Cullen losing his mind over the Magi boon, and the independent Circle of Orzammar not being formed as a consequence of the freed Circle of Ferelden.

David said Alistair declared the circle free, the chantry said no but it wasn't going to end there.

In other words, it's a recton.

Or it just didn't last long.

That doesnt even make any sense. Did you even read what I addressed, or are you too busy disagreeing with me to actually read what I write?

Did you seriously believe the Chantry was going to just accept a circle outside of their control peacefully without a fight or that the Dalish and humans wouldn't come to blows living in close proximity towards each other?If so I don't know what to say I really don't because that goes against everything BOTH games show you infact Alistair's damn lucky Ferelden is'nt on the recieving end of an Exalted March.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[Adrian68b]

For instance: present day cosmology explains the origin of universe through Big Bang theory, without any creation by any God. It is an incomplete explanation, because it goes only as far as a few hundreds of seconds before the explosion. This is an atheistic explanation.

Or evolution means origin of life through slow and gradual biochemical reactions and natural selection. No god is required.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.

In Origins, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; the Cousland and Surana Warden can express that they don't believe in the Maker. It's an atheist point of view that's provided by these characters.

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Can't the PC be atheistic already? Or at least agnostic? They can certainly not be a follower of Andraste. My Dalish Warden had his own gods. My Cousland was not religious.

TBH I never thought about religion in DA2. Since I'm not religious, I guess I didn't consider Hawke's religion since it never came up (when it did in DA:O).