895 réponses à ce sujet

[terdferguson123]

LobselVith8 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.

In Origins, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; the Cousland and Surana Warden can express that they don't believe in the Maker. It's an atheist point of view that's provided by these characters.

Key word here is that she doesn't believe in the maker, not that she knows the maker doesn't exist. These two statements are very different. Knowing the maker doesn't exist is an atheist concept, and Morrigan never claims to know this information. She just says she doesn't believe nor need a maker, that is simply an anti-religious statement. If we were to go by your logic, then any person who has never heard of a deity in the world must be an atheist? That's not how it works, it is more safe to say that Morrigan is just unreligious rather than Atheist.

[slimgrin]

Adrian68b wrote...

"I think the OP doesn't really understand what an Atheist is tbh. Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist."

Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple.

You don't understand these terms. Best get back to Ferelden speak.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Adrian68b]

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

[Shadow Fox]

Adrian68b wrote...

For instance: present day cosmology explains the origin of universe through Big Bang theory, without any creation by any God. It is an incomplete explanation, because it goes only as far as a few hundreds of seconds before the explosion. This is an atheistic explanation.

Or evolution means origin of life through slow and gradual biochemical reactions and natural selection. No god is required.

the BBT is the most recent accepted theroy in the scientific comunity and even then Scientists still debate it's verity today so it's hardly proof that God doesn't exist

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

[addiction21]

Vandicus wrote...

How does that constitute a retcon.

A king standing there and saying "X will be done" does not guarentee it will be done. The Chantry resisted/is resisting his demands. We'll learn how that plays out in DA 3. 

I was thinking about a drinking game that you take a shot everytime retcon gets misused around these boards... I decided against it. I want no part in the many deaths from alcohol poisoning that would occur.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.

In Origins, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; the Cousland and Surana Warden can express that they don't believe in the Maker. It's an atheist point of view that's provided by these characters.

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

What Morrigan *said* though seemed clear enough.  She denied any divine role (or need for one) for the creation of the universe.  That *IS* the general atheistic position.

An Atheist may well believe (especially if given factual evidence) that a powerful being with great powers exists.  However, unless that Atheist views it as a "god" (i.e. being worthy of being exalted, reverence or worship) he or she is STILL an atheist.  That being in question is simply a very powerful being.  Nothing more or less.  There is no evidence that either Flemeth or Morrigan views the old gods (which really is just a convenient label) as anything other than very powerful and important beings.  Ergo at least in the gameplay they both seem to be atheists (although Morrigan is a lot more strident and certain about it)

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

"Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple." 


Plain and simple, you don't know what atheism is. Regardless of what some other person may have argued atheism is, that's not what the definition is. Simple statement that one does not need a god to explain things does not constitute atheism. Agnostics do not need gods to explain things, yet they are not atheists. Agnostics are not automatically atheists.

[terdferguson123]

slimgrin wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

"I think the OP doesn't really understand what an Atheist is tbh. Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist."

Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple.

You don't understand these terms. Best get back to Ferelden speak.

No, it doesn't. As I already stated, if this were true then people who have never even heard of deities would be considered atheist, which is not true. Were the earliest humans who did not even think of gods yet, Atheist? No, they were simply just unreligious, these are not the same term.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

Wan't it said that the Codex Entries are unreliable?

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

"Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple." 


Plain and simple, you don't know what atheism is. Regardless of what some other person may have argued atheism is, that's not what the definition is. Simple statement that one does not need a god to explain things does not constitute atheism. Agnostics do not need gods to explain things, yet they are not atheists. Agnostics are not automatically atheists.

You are also misusing the term agnostic which literally means "not knowing". An agnostic is one that BELIEVES that proof of divinity is fundamentally impossible. It's more than not knowing that god or God exists, an Agnostic believes one can NOT know this.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Key word here is that she doesn't believe in the maker, not that she knows the maker doesn't exist. These two statements are very different. Knowing the maker doesn't exist is an atheist concept, and Morrigan never claims to know this information. She just says she doesn't believe nor need a maker, that is simply an anti-religious statement. If we were to go by your logic, then any person who has never heard of a deity in the world must be an atheist? That's not how it works, it is more safe to say that Morrigan is just unreligious rather than Atheist.

Morrigan has heard of the Maker, and talks with disdain about the Andrastian faith. We can look at The Warden as a person who can be atheist. There are players who chose to make their Wardens atheist by having their character say that they don't believe in the Maker; it's a valid choice for players who want their Warden to be atheist.

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

So to high dragons but almost all people in Thedas don't think High Dragons are gods.  Just because a powerful being is worshipped by some does not make it a god.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

 Morrigan expresses doubt in the maker, as well as the human noble origin. Expressing doubt does not = atheist, it = agnostic. A VERY different perspective on the subject. Atheists KNOW gods do not exist (which is frankly silly because there is no way to know that just like there is no way to prove a god does exist), an Agnostic has doubt about it. The point, Morrigan is agnostic, and the warden can so choose to be agnostic. Not atheist.

In Origins, Morrigan says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; the Cousland and Surana Warden can express that they don't believe in the Maker. It's an atheist point of view that's provided by these characters.

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

What Morrigan *said* though seemed clear enough.  She denied any divine role (or need for one) for the creation of the universe.  That *IS* the general atheistic position.

An Atheist may well believe (especially if given factual evidence) that a powerful being with great powers exists.  However, unless that Atheist views it as a "god" (i.e. being worthy of being exalted, reverence or worship) he or she is STILL an atheist.  That being in question is simply a very powerful being.  Nothing more or less.  There is no evidence that either Flemeth or Morrigan views the old gods (which really is just a convenient label) as anything other than very powerful and important beings.  Ergo at least in the gameplay they both seem to be atheists (although Morrigan is a lot more strident and certain about it)

-Polaris

By this logic one can deny the existence of magic in Thedas. Magic is defined as a supernatural act. "Magic" in Thedas is done by humans. Therefore it is a natural act, and not really magic.

[Adrian68b]

"Key word here is that she doesn't believe in the maker, not that she knows the maker doesn't exist."

Knowing that a god does not exists is not a scientific knowledge. Is simply a belief. It cannot be tested objectively. There is nothing in science at the level of "knowing". Knowing means certainty. All scientifical knowledge is just PLAUSIBLE.

In the entire history of science, not a single older theory remained unchanged. That means only that at some moment, what we "know" as "true" is proven to be wrong. So, in present science it is accepted that theories are only plausible, until proven wrong.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:53 .

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

So to high dragons but almost all people in Thedas don't think High Dragons are gods.  Just because a powerful being is worshipped by some does not make it a god.

-Polaris

Being able to grant requests and telepathically communicate with priests does make them a god though. 

[Shadow Fox]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

Fun fact just because a deity is no longer worshipped doesn't mean it's not a deity.

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

"Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple." 


Plain and simple, you don't know what atheism is. Regardless of what some other person may have argued atheism is, that's not what the definition is. Simple statement that one does not need a god to explain things does not constitute atheism. Agnostics do not need gods to explain things, yet they are not atheists. Agnostics are not automatically atheists.

You are also misusing the term agnostic which literally means "not knowing". An agnostic is one that BELIEVES that proof of divinity is fundamentally impossible. It's more than not knowing that god or God exists, an Agnostic believes one can NOT know this.

-Polaris

I stated that agnostics do not need a god to explain things. Do you dispute this statement? If not, then my description of agnostics is correct. 

[terdferguson123]

Adrian68b wrote...

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

Richard Dawkins is plainly an annoying Militant Atheist who has devoted his entire life to an ironic quest to show that those with faith have no good reasons, all the while he cannot prove his own point that without a shadow of a doubt, god doesn't exist.

I very much dislike RIchard Dawkins and think that his strange way of going about "Science" is incredibly unscientific.

It's one thing to not be religious, it's an entire new category of stupid to spend your entire life finger pointing at religious people for basing their opinions on an unprovable concept while you do it yourself. Truly, is there any way to know if they are actually delusional? Statistically, they have the odds against them, but that doesn't mean they are completely wrong.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:56 .

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

So to high dragons but almost all people in Thedas don't think High Dragons are gods.  Just because a powerful being is worshipped by some does not make it a god.

-Polaris

Being able to grant requests and telepathically communicate with priests does make them a god though. 

So all First Enchanters are gods then?

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

Andrastians don't worship the Old Gods. Just because the Magisters worshipped them doesn't mean they were actually gods. The codex on the Old Gods makes it clear that Andrastians don't view them that way.

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Disbelief in one god is not disbelief in all gods.

By that argument, since Christians do not believe in the same god as the ancient Egyptians, Christians express atheist viewpoints when they state they believe in God rather than in Aton. 

Morrigan clearly does not believe in the Maker. It is equally clear that she knows about the existence of the Old Gods. By any normal definition of godhood, the Old Gods are gods. Morrigan simply does not consider them a higher power.

As DG said, what Morrigan said does not mean what you think she said. 

Despite your contention that the Old Gods are deities, the people of Thedas seem to think otherwise (based on the coded entry about the Old Gods). It seems being immortal and powerful aren't sufficient enough for the Thedas litmus test, as some scholars simply view them to be ancient dragons.

You do realize the old gods had actual temples, worshippers, blood sacrifices, ect... You have played legacy, yes?

So to high dragons but almost all people in Thedas don't think High Dragons are gods.  Just because a powerful being is worshipped by some does not make it a god.

-Polaris

High dragons are not in the same category as the Old gods.The high Dragon in the sacred Ashes quest can be killed by Anyone and remain dead but the archdemon must be killed in a specific manner by a specific being because it is an immortal entitey that can keep rebirthing itself over and over.That goes beyond basic Immortality. By your logic rats can be gods.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Adrian68b wrote...

"So all agnostics are atheists? How enlightening.
You are misunderstanding and misuseing the term atheist."

I could only suggest some reading. For instance "The Selfish Gene" and "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins.

"Sorry, but no. Atheism means that you do not need any god in order to explain things. Is really this simple." 


Plain and simple, you don't know what atheism is. Regardless of what some other person may have argued atheism is, that's not what the definition is. Simple statement that one does not need a god to explain things does not constitute atheism. Agnostics do not need gods to explain things, yet they are not atheists. Agnostics are not automatically atheists.

You are also misusing the term agnostic which literally means "not knowing". An agnostic is one that BELIEVES that proof of divinity is fundamentally impossible. It's more than not knowing that god or God exists, an Agnostic believes one can NOT know this.

-Polaris

I stated that agnostics do not need a god to explain things. Do you dispute this statement? If not, then my description of agnostics is correct. 

No it's not except MAYBE in the most technical terms.  Agnostics punt.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

This thread has proven to me that other forums are right to ban religious discussion.