895 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Your own definition of agnosticism backs me up. Agnostics claim that divinity is UNKNOWABLE. That's a definate and positive claim.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


So all First Enchanters are gods then?

-Polaris

I don't recall the First Enchanters being immortal, able to grant requests of absurd power, or being telepathic. Please show me where I missed that. If they can do that they're most definitely gods. 

Magic enables you to read minds.  Magic can grant requires of "absurd powers".  Blood magic can extend your life indefinately...at least for hundreds and hundreds of years. 

So yeah you missed a few things.

-Polaris

Mind reading is not equal to telepathy. Nor is any act performed by mortal mages with the exception of entry into the Black City comparable to the powers of the Old Gods. Blood magic in theory could allow one to become a god, assuming that blood magic can indeed break all rules of magic(as has been implied). Mortals becoming gods HAPPENS in fantasy settings.

However, your statement on First Enchanters being considered gods by my standards are incorrect. No first enchanter is a telepath, or immortal, or capable of similar feats.

Mind Reading IS Telepathy.  By definition in fact,  Magic can (and does) permit mental communication and control, ergo telepathy.  Magic (at least blood magic) IS capable of extending life indefinately, especially if you don't mind being tainted.    Besides, there is no laundry list of powers that makes a being divine.  That is a status granted by the worshiop of others to those others.  Nothing more and nothing less.

-Polaris

Let me be more specific then(actually I'm repeating myself). The Old Gods were able to communicate telepathically with their priests. The First Enchanters are not capable of this. If you claim this is so, provide a source.

I disagree that there is no laundry list of powers that makes a being a deity. There is a common industry practice regarding what constitutes a deity in fantasy settings. That is the standard which Thedas uses. 

[TEWR]

Why is it that anytime an interesting thread with David Gaider pops up, I'm always late to the party and he's left the thread?! Why, God Nixon, why?!

David Gaider wrote...

 And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

I'd say it was consistent for a Human Noble PC. You have the dialogue in the HN origin, the option to never be a part of any sort of prayer whatsoever afterwards, and you can even ask Gheyna the following:

"You guys don't really believe in those gods, do you?"

Or something like that.

So I'd say it was consistent beyond just the HN origin story. The HN origin just opened up the path.

David Gaider wrote...
The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

Ah, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, you're not against atheistic beliefs and expressions of doubt, but you're against the idea that we should be able to go heavy militant atheist on religions over Thedas. Would that be correct?

Which isn't to say you're against us taking any sort of action against the Chantry or other religions whatsoever. Just not cranked up to 11.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. If so, I apologize.

David Gaider wrote...

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

I'm not so sure I understand what you're trying to say. Or rather, I do and it just boggles me as to how you can say it, even being Morrigan's writer -- or at least a leading authority.

Morrigan clearly states she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power. The only thing she believes in are the Old Gods, which is something everyone believes in because... well... they're proven to be real. Whether they're actual gods is something that's been debated in Thedas for centuries -- per your lore -- and is ultimately irrelevant.

They believe in them as powerful creatures that exist.

Anyway, back to my point, Morrigan's choice of words leaves no room for alternate interpretations. Words have a clear amount of power, and she never once questions her beliefs. In fact, she's always irreverent to any sort of notion of religious worship.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Those scholars are clearly limited in their knowledge of the Old Gods. They probably didn't believe in the Blight or Archdemons as well, much like Loghain. Until recently, dragons were believed to be extinct. Morrigan is better informed than they are. 

"[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a ], not as a result of the Maker's wrath.[/color] "

Characters can think incorrect thoughts and be misinformed about events in the world(separation of in character knowledge and out of character knowledge), funny how that works.

You're incorrect. People believe in the Blight and the Archdemon, Loghain included; he simply didn't believe the horde was actually the vanguard of the Archdemon. He dismissed it as not being a true Blight, but that doesn't mean he thought the Blights and Archdemons never existed.

Also, if the lore addresses that Andrastians don't see the Old Gods as deities or gods, I don't see your point.

[Grizzly46]

I'm an atheist myself, but I think its quite appropriate that there is a strong religious presence in a fantasy world, and that belief of some kind should come naturally. I like to think of fantasy games as medieval times with dragons, and if a fantasy game would be done without the fantasy part - could anyone deny that the church and religion would be strong? There was a death penalty for not going to church on Sundays, for crying out loud!

So yes, religion should be present, and atheism should not be allowed more than boning children.

That said, may I complement on how the church of the Maker and everything around it was built up. A great job, clearly inspired by Christianity, but still with enough unique flavour to seem like something else.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.

I'm not so sure I understand what you're trying to say. Or rather, I do and it just boggles me as to how you can say it, even being Morrigan's writer -- or at least a leading authority.

Morrigan clearly states she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power. The only thing she believes in are the Old Gods, which is something everyone believes in because... well... they're proven to be real. Whether they're actual gods is something that's been debated in Thedas for centuries -- per your lore -- and is ultimately irrelevant.

They believe in them as powerful creatures that exist.

Anyway, back to my point, Morrigan's choice of words leaves no room for alternate interpretations. Words have a clear amount of power, and she never once questions her beliefs. In fact, she's always irreverent to any sort of notion of religious worship.

No higher power. The implicit words there are "then me". The alternative interpretation is that Morrigan views herself equal to, or capable of being equal to the most powerful beings in existence. 

[slimgrin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Your own definition of agnosticism backs me up. Agnostics claim that divinity is UNKNOWABLE. That's a definate and positive claim.

-Polaris

It's more like, "I don't want to ****** anyone off, so I'm not claiming a stance."

[Calians]

 And at the end of this its just a game, how it plays out should be left to the writers. 

[TEWR]

Not even Morrigan's that arrogant. You can't just pull some interpretation like that out of nowhere.

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

No one is questioning that the old gods are real. It's pretty clear that they are. That doesn't make them divinities. Certainly most of the people of modern thedas do NOT regard them as divine beings (but do admit...those that know of them....that they are immensely powerful and immortal).

-Polaris

The dark spawn are the result of the tevinter magisters being cursed by the maker upon entering the black city <Link>.

Darkspawn are compelled to constantly seek out the tevinter magister's old gods <Link>

These gods are the only beings who can control the Dark spawn.

They are Divine

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Calians]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not even Morrigan's that arrogant. You can't just pull some interpretation like that out of nowhere.

No but Morrigan can be a troll.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

I disagree that there is no laundry list of powers that makes a being a deity. There is a common industry practice regarding what constitutes a deity in fantasy settings. That is the standard which Thedas uses. 

Care to prove that?  As far as I know the idea of divinity in Thedas is very much like the one in our real world, and the maker and the elven gods (which are labeled clearly as divinities to their followers) handled deliberately in a way to have their existance be unknown in the game.  That is DIFFERENT from most fantasy settings.

Just because bobo the powerful can give a person powers does not make bobo a god at least in Thedas.  The old gods were once worshiped as gods but aren't regarded any longer as divinities.  Nevertheless,. they did have tremendous powers.  The Archdemons aren't considered divinities, but they DEFINATELY give their followers powers.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Those scholars are clearly limited in their knowledge of the Old Gods. They probably didn't believe in the Blight or Archdemons as well, much like Loghain. Until recently, dragons were believed to be extinct. Morrigan is better informed than they are. 

"[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a ], not as a result of the Maker's wrath.[/color] "

Characters can think incorrect thoughts and be misinformed about events in the world(separation of in character knowledge and out of character knowledge), funny how that works.

You're incorrect. People believe in the Blight and the Archdemon, Loghain included; he simply didn't believe the horde was actually the vanguard of the Archdemon. He dismissed it as not being a true Blight, but that doesn't mean he thought the Blights and Archdemons never existed.

Also, if the lore addresses that Andrastians don't see the Old Gods as deities or gods, I don't see your point.

Andrastians have their own religious beliefs(which of course include denying the divinity of any other religion). They are not atheists. The codex entry with the scholars that you referenced and which I quoted states "Scholars assume the Old Gods must have indeed been real at one point". That means they think the Old Gods are no longer real. Clearly the scholars couldn't be any more wrong.

Morrigan, presumably does not deny the existence of these gods since they are known to her. 

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No one is questioning that the old gods are real. It's pretty clear that they are. That doesn't make them divinities. Certainly most of the people of modern thedas do NOT regard them as divine beings (but do admit...those that know of them....that they are immensely powerful and immortal).

-Polaris

The dark spawn are the result of the tevinter magisters being cursed by the maker upon entering the black city <Link>.

Darkspawn are compelled to constantly seek out the tevinter magister's old gods <Link>

These gods are the only beings who can control the Dark spawn.

They are Divine

So every bloodmage with mind control or abomination with the same is a god then?

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

slimgrin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Your own definition of agnosticism backs me up. Agnostics claim that divinity is UNKNOWABLE. That's a definate and positive claim.

-Polaris

It's more like, "I don't want to ****** anyone off, so I'm not claiming a stance."

...please let's not do the agnostistics are fence sitters debate. Those were way too ugly.

[Adrian68b]

"It's one thing to not be religious, it's an entire new category of stupid to spend your entire life finger pointing at religious people for basing their opinions on an unprovable concept while you do it yourself. Truly, is there any way to know if they are actually delusional? Statistically, they have the odds against them, but that doesn't mean they are completely wrong."

I agree. I only mentioned Dawkins because he explains well, not because his charming personality. It is one thing to react against a fanatical terrorist and completely different to call everybody stupid. But because of that he is not really an atheist.
About Dawkins being wrong about religion? That is another kind of debate. But he is forced to accept that religion has moral power in our society. For most people, religion is the only way to avoid making horrific things.

[LobselVith8]

Grizzly46 wrote...

I'm an atheist myself, but I think its quite appropriate that there is a strong religious presence in a fantasy world, and that belief of some kind should come naturally. I like to think of fantasy games as medieval times with dragons, and if a fantasy game would be done without the fantasy part - could anyone deny that the church and religion would be strong? There was a death penalty for not going to church on Sundays, for crying out loud!

It's illegal to be an apostate, but that doesn't stop some mages. I can imagine that not everyone would capitulate to the views of an anti-mage religious organization, particularly some mages.

Grizzly46 wrote...

So yes, religion should be present, and atheism should not be allowed more than boning children.

Thats an absurd comparison.

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No one is questioning that the old gods are real. It's pretty clear that they are. That doesn't make them divinities. Certainly most of the people of modern thedas do NOT regard them as divine beings (but do admit...those that know of them....that they are immensely powerful and immortal).

-Polaris

The dark spawn are the result of the tevinter magisters being cursed by the maker upon entering the black city <Link>.

Darkspawn are compelled to constantly seek out the tevinter magister's old gods <Link>

These gods are the only beings who can control the Dark spawn.

They are Divine

So every bloodmage with mind control or abomination with the same is a god then?

-Polaris

Blood mages use mind control...The old gods and the darkspawn have a hive mind, it's not the same thing.

The magister is not an Abomination

[Ryzaki]

I don't know. Whatever his name was in Legacy looked like an abomination to me. A thinking one but still...

[Emzamination]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't know. Whatever his name was in Legacy looked like an abomination to me. A thinking one but still...

He is one of the first darkspawn directly cursed by the maker.

[Ryzaki]

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't know. Whatever his name was in Legacy looked like an abomination to me. A thinking one but still...

He is one of the first darkspawn directly cursed by the maker.

And he used to be a magister. The fact that he reached the golden city at all was a feat worthy of gods

Plus there's no proof the "maker" cursed him. According to him the city was black when he got there. Maybe something was locked up there and it wasn't punishment at all but rather whatever it was being unleashed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I disagree that there is no laundry list of powers that makes a being a deity. There is a common industry practice regarding what constitutes a deity in fantasy settings. That is the standard which Thedas uses. 

Care to prove that?  As far as I know the idea of divinity in Thedas is very much like the one in our real world, and the maker and the elven gods (which are labeled clearly as divinities to their followers) handled deliberately in a way to have their existance be unknown in the game.  That is DIFFERENT from most fantasy settings.

Just because bobo the powerful can give a person powers does not make bobo a god at least in Thedas.  The old gods were once worshiped as gods but aren't regarded any longer as divinities.  Nevertheless,. they did have tremendous powers.  The Archdemons aren't considered divinities, but they DEFINATELY give their followers powers.

-Polaris

The "Maker" is actually fairly common. In most fantasy settings written in heavily Christian influenced cultures, there is an overgod whose existence is a matter of faith(although many at some point validate this by having the overdeity interact with the underdeities). This overdeity is always either the creator of everything, or a subordinate somewhere in a chain of command where at the top rests the creator of everything.

Likewise the elven gods represent a group of deities that are believed to have been once there. Dead or missing deities are another common element in fantasy settings.

In order to "prove" to you that the term deity has a pretty basic set of criteria that determines whether or not a being is referred to as a deity in the meta perspective, I'll need a short list of what books or fantasy settings that you've read from that includes deities of the "definitely real and considered as such" variety.

The use of deity to refer to beings that meet certain requirements is a result of projection of our terminology into a fantasy setting. Much like the term magic, which covers anything supernatural, is still used in settings where everyone has access to and uses magic(magic couldn't possibly be any more natural, but its still referred to as magic).

[terdferguson123]

IanPolaris wrote...

Your own definition of agnosticism backs me up. Agnostics claim that divinity is UNKNOWABLE. That's a definate and positive claim.

-Polaris

No it doesn't reread it. You missed the (as Far as can be judged) parantheses. Which is exactly what I stated, current knowledge does not provide enough evidence but it could in the future.

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No one is questioning that the old gods are real. It's pretty clear that they are. That doesn't make them divinities. Certainly most of the people of modern thedas do NOT regard them as divine beings (but do admit...those that know of them....that they are immensely powerful and immortal).

-Polaris

The dark spawn are the result of the tevinter magisters being cursed by the maker upon entering the black city <Link>.

Darkspawn are compelled to constantly seek out the tevinter magister's old gods <Link>

These gods are the only beings who can control the Dark spawn.

They are Divine

So every bloodmage with mind control or abomination with the same is a god then?

-Polaris

Blood mages use mind control...The old gods and the darkspawn have a hive mind, it's not the same thing.

The magister is not an Abomination

Actually it's not quite a hive-mind.  It really is a form of mind control (via the "sweet song" to quote "Mother").  It's just that most Darkspawn simply aren't sentient on their own (the Architect being a notable exception).  Even then and even with intelligent Darkspawn, it most certainly does closely resemble bloodmagic mind control, so my comparison is apt.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

terdferguson123 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Your own definition of agnosticism backs me up. Agnostics claim that divinity is UNKNOWABLE. That's a definate and positive claim.

-Polaris

No it doesn't reread it. You missed the (as Far as can be judged) parantheses. Which is exactly what I stated, current knowledge does not provide enough evidence but it could in the future.

It's a paranthetical expression which means it isn't part of the definition (or else it wouldn't be parenthetical).  I missed nothing of the sort.

-Polaris