895 réponses à ce sujet

[ThisIsZad]

 

[Xilizhra]

"God" is a wholly subjective term. Morrigan may not believe in the Old Gods as being gods, i.e. beings worthy of worship or something similar.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

There is a "common industry practice". I maintain that the writers use it. Given DGs statements that no atheists exist in Thedas, the logical conclusion is that the meta terminology of deities applies to the existence of atheists in Thedas. I cannot provide you with absolute proof that the writers separate what constitutes a deity or not with a certain group of traits, but their statements indicate that they're following the norms. Would it be inappropriate to say that DA:O's plot used elements of the Hero's Journey? I cannot provide conclusive proof that the writers knowingly used this, but such an assumption is both logical and warranted.

Citation needed.  Please show me where this is defined as "common industry practice".

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<Snip>

So she lies to the man she shares a bed with but suddenly morrigan and the bard girl are bffl and totally honest with each other? You're making the same Mistake as Lobsel redux and taking it at face value. Keep in mind Morrigan's character is a cunning manipulative, thoroughly deceitful liar which she and her mother boast of with pride.

Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

I think she enjoys distressing Leliana. Morrigan didn't allow the Warden to romance her for any reason besides pleasure. It is not unreasonable to think that Morrigan's statements to Leliana are not as straightforward as they seem, especially when Morrigan stands to gain from it(via pleasure at Leliana's distress), and word of god from the writer.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

"God" is a wholly subjective term. Morrigan may not believe in the Old Gods as being gods, i.e. beings worthy of worship or something similar.

There are some worlds esp DND fantasy worlds like Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk where the term "God" and whether a being is or isn't one is actually fairly rigidly and objectively defined.

I have seen no evidence of this in Thedas, however.  Until I see such evidence I am in agreement with you.

-Polaris

[Emzamination]

Ryzaki wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<Snip>

So she lies to the man she shares a bed with but suddenly morrigan and the bard girl are bffl and totally honest with each other? You're making the same Mistake as Lobsel redux and taking it at face value. Keep in mind Morrigan's character is a cunning manipulative, thoroughly deceitful liar which she and her mother boast of with pride.

Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

A shield against her true motivations.

[Xilizhra]

I think she enjoys distressing Leliana. Morrigan didn't allow the Warden to romance her for any reason besides pleasure. It is not unreasonable to think that Morrigan's statements to Leliana are not as straightforward as they seem, especially when Morrigan stands to gain from it(via pleasure at Leliana's distress), and word of god from the writer.

Actually, Gaider acknowledged Morrigan as an exception, before trying to claim it couldn't apply to the PC for some fallacious reason.

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There is a "common industry practice". I maintain that the writers use it. Given DGs statements that no atheists exist in Thedas, the logical conclusion is that the meta terminology of deities applies to the existence of atheists in Thedas. I cannot provide you with absolute proof that the writers separate what constitutes a deity or not with a certain group of traits, but their statements indicate that they're following the norms. Would it be inappropriate to say that DA:O's plot used elements of the Hero's Journey? I cannot provide conclusive proof that the writers knowingly used this, but such an assumption is both logical and warranted.

Citation needed.  Please show me where this is defined as "common industry practice".

-Polaris

Quoting my earlier statement. And I don't mean standardized industry practice, I mean common industry practice. There are many activities which are not strictly defined as industry practice in writing, but are common and symptomatic of those businesses anyways. 

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

So she lies to the man she shares a bed with but suddenly morrigan and the bard girl are bffl and totally honest with each other? You're making the same Mistake as Lobsel redux and taking it at face value. Keep in mind Morrigan's character is a cunning manipulative, thoroughly deceitful liar which she and her mother boast of with pride.

As Ryzaki said, she has nothing to gain by doing such a thing. She's blunt about what the Mages put themselves in, she's blunt and honest about her irreverence towards Andraste and the Chantry itself, she's blunt and honest about how she doesn't like sharing with Leliana, so why wouldn't she be honest about this?

She doesn't tiptoe around the facts unless she gains something out of it.

For this, she doesn't gain anything. Aside from Leliana pestering her further, which is something she really doesn't like.

Xilizhra wrote...

Is there any chance we can yank this around to the possibility of the PC being atheist, or at least of a religion that isn't Andrastian?

Nope, none. Nada. Zilch.

Really, I tried too at the end of my last post, where I said I'd enjoy being the pariah in villages and towns if I could express beliefs outside of the norm. Just like if I'm a Dalish and I say "I'm a Dalish Elf! I believe in the Dalish pantheon!" -- though not quite as hammy -- I should get scornful looks from Humans and maybe a combination of scornful looks/curious looks from Elves.

[Ryzaki]

Vandicus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<Snip>

So she lies to the man she shares a bed with but suddenly morrigan and the bard girl are bffl and totally honest with each other? You're making the same Mistake as Lobsel redux and taking it at face value. Keep in mind Morrigan's character is a cunning manipulative, thoroughly deceitful liar which she and her mother boast of with pride.

Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

I think she enjoys distressing Leliana. Morrigan didn't allow the Warden to romance her for any reason besides pleasure. It is not unreasonable to think that Morrigan's statements to Leliana are not as straightforward as they seem, especially when Morrigan stands to gain from it(via pleasure at Leliana's distress), and word of god from the writer.

Really? She only allowed the Warden to romance her for pleasure? I only romanced her once but in most of my games she approaches my male warden without him having said one flirty comment to her. She gets shot down but...yeah. Felt more manipulative to me.

So she gets Leliana upset by playing the atheist like a emo goth chick who thinks it's cool to go "lulz I don't believe in god" to her religious friends and this is pleasurable to her to endure Leliana's concern? And I thought I couldn't like her less.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Is there any chance we can yank this around to the possibility of the PC being atheist, or at least of a religion that isn't Andrastian?

Choices and options are good. I'd prefer for the character to be allowed to be atheist, rather than forced to be religiously Andrastian. My Surana Warden didn't follow the Maker, and didn't believe Andraste was anything but an ordinary woman.

[TEWR]

Morrigan stands to gain from it(via pleasure at Leliana's distress

I think that's merely a perk for her telling the truth about her beliefs.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There is a "common industry practice". I maintain that the writers use it. Given DGs statements that no atheists exist in Thedas, the logical conclusion is that the meta terminology of deities applies to the existence of atheists in Thedas. I cannot provide you with absolute proof that the writers separate what constitutes a deity or not with a certain group of traits, but their statements indicate that they're following the norms. Would it be inappropriate to say that DA:O's plot used elements of the Hero's Journey? I cannot provide conclusive proof that the writers knowingly used this, but such an assumption is both logical and warranted.

Citation needed.  Please show me where this is defined as "common industry practice".

-Polaris

Quoting my earlier statement. And I don't mean standardized industry practice, I mean common industry practice. There are many activities which are not strictly defined as industry practice in writing, but are common and symptomatic of those businesses anyways. 

Citation needed.  Show me that it's common industry practice and then prove to me that Thedas follows this practice.  I have already noted that the "Maker" at least does NOT because the maker is clearly 'unknowable' at least in the game...and that is *different* from most fantasy games.   That tells me that we can't make the assumptions you want us to make.

-Polaris

[kirvingtwo]

Ash Wind wrote...

I'll throw in my two cents on the Morrigan/Atheists discussion.

My view is that what Morrigan believes, and what she presents to the world are her beliefs are sometimes different things. There's a line in the Anvil of the Void quest that, to me, contradicts the opinion she presents to Leliana in their Maker discussion.

If you are going to destroy the Anvil of the Void and Morrigan is present, she will protest:

Morrigan: Have you no desire to discover this anvil's potential? It is a marvel, a tool of creation!

Morrigan: You could rival the Maker Himself with this instrument.

Morrigan: If you destroy the Anvil, I swear to will regret it.

Is it definitive? No, not by any means, but by the same token, it doesn't sound like the devout atheist she presents in the discussion with Leliana.

I don't know if there are many atheists who think the way to get their point across is to invoke a reference to the powers of a God they don't believe exists.

*laughs*  Morrigan is clearly invoking the maker in this dialogue in order to be manipulative.  She's interested in the potential power of the anvil.  This indicates that she believes that the pc may be swayed by such arguements (delivered somewhat sarcastically btw) .  She's also implying, perhaps erroneously, that the pc believes in the maker.

Modifié par kirvingtwo, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[Vandicus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<Snip>

So she lies to the man she shares a bed with but suddenly morrigan and the bard girl are bffl and totally honest with each other? You're making the same Mistake as Lobsel redux and taking it at face value. Keep in mind Morrigan's character is a cunning manipulative, thoroughly deceitful liar which she and her mother boast of with pride.

Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

I think she enjoys distressing Leliana. Morrigan didn't allow the Warden to romance her for any reason besides pleasure. It is not unreasonable to think that Morrigan's statements to Leliana are not as straightforward as they seem, especially when Morrigan stands to gain from it(via pleasure at Leliana's distress), and word of god from the writer.

Really? She only allowed the Warden to romance her for pleasure? I only romanced her once but in most of my games she approaches my male warden without him having said one flirty comment to her. She gets shot down but...yeah. Felt more manipulative to me.

So she gets Leliana upset by playing the atheist like a emo goth chick who thinks it's cool to go "lulz I don't believe in god" to her religious friends? And I thought I couldn't like her less.

Yes she tries early on to manipulate male Wardens through sex. I'm referring to the romance particularly though. She doesn't utilize the bond between her and the Warden to try to manipulate him into performing the Dark Ritual(no line where she says "I can't bear to lose you", even though that would greatly increase her odds and be totally in character regardless of whether it was genuine or all manipulation). Since the romance between them is not used for any form of manipulation, it must be a result of actual genuine pleasure derived from the romance. She also demonstrates unnecessary concern with the tracker ring. Both creeper and endearing at the same time.

Yeah her character is totally jerkwadish to just about everybody. She mocks and makes japes at other characters too, even though the insults don't benefit her.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


As Ryzaki said, she has nothing to gain by doing such a thing. She's blunt about what the Mages put themselves in, she's blunt and honest about her irreverence towards Andraste and the Chantry itself, she's blunt and honest about how she doesn't like sharing with Leliana, so why wouldn't she be honest about this?

She doesn't tiptoe around the facts unless she gains something out of it.

For this, she doesn't gain anything. Aside from Leliana pestering her further, which is something she really doesn't like.

She has much to gain by leading leliana on about not believing in gods, Like a God child.

[Ash Wind]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ash Wind, in our real world, Atheists will often invoke "god" as part of an expression, but that doesn't mean they actually believe in any divinity. Calling on the "Maker" in thedas seems to be a common part of the language and I think you are reading too much into that one line especially when Morrigan quite plainly and clearly takes a very doctrinaire atheist position not once but multiple times elsewhere.

-Polaris

That certainly is true to a point. I am sure there are atheists who exclaim God Damn when they are angry. Doesn't change the fact that in the referenced dialogue she is specifically talking about the power of Creation. There are only really two lines of thought on the origin of creation. God or the Big Bang. Maybe there are others in the DA universe, who knows.

But if she wanted to be devout atheist in that line, she could have said

Morrigan:  You could rival the imaginary powers simpleton's assign to the Maker.

But, she does not. She talks about rivaling the Maker. Again, one man's opinion.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is there any chance we can yank this around to the possibility of the PC being atheist, or at least of a religion that isn't Andrastian?

Choices and options are good. I'd prefer for the character to be allowed to be atheist, rather than forced to be religiously Andrastian. My Surana Warden didn't follow the Maker, and didn't believe Andraste was anything but an ordinary woman.

Personally, I very much doubt Andraste was an ordinary woman. I suspect she was a mage at least, if not an OGB.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

A shield against her true motivations.

She could've simple said "I't not your business".
Plus, Sten could avoid telling the Warden (or any other companions) the info about the Qunari he didn't want to share. She could've done the same.

LobselVith8 wrote...



Choices and options are good.
I'd prefer for the character to be allowed to be atheist, rather than
forced to be religiously Andrastian. My Surana Warden didn't follow the
Maker, and didn't believe Andraste was anything but an ordinary
woman.

Don't say that. You know, there's chance she'll turn out to be a mage. While I don't care a bit about it, it'd be fun too see the shocked reaction of certain people to this.

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There is a "common industry practice". I maintain that the writers use it. Given DGs statements that no atheists exist in Thedas, the logical conclusion is that the meta terminology of deities applies to the existence of atheists in Thedas. I cannot provide you with absolute proof that the writers separate what constitutes a deity or not with a certain group of traits, but their statements indicate that they're following the norms. Would it be inappropriate to say that DA:O's plot used elements of the Hero's Journey? I cannot provide conclusive proof that the writers knowingly used this, but such an assumption is both logical and warranted.

Citation needed.  Please show me where this is defined as "common industry practice".

-Polaris

Quoting my earlier statement. And I don't mean standardized industry practice, I mean common industry practice. There are many activities which are not strictly defined as industry practice in writing, but are common and symptomatic of those businesses anyways. 

Citation needed.  Show me that it's common industry practice and then prove to me that Thedas follows this practice.  I have already noted that the "Maker" at least does NOT because the maker is clearly 'unknowable' at least in the game...and that is *different* from most fantasy games.   That tells me that we can't make the assumptions you want us to make.

-Polaris

The "Maker" archetype is common, as I already mentioned. I believe you said you were familiar with D&D fantasy settings. Try searching "Ao" for Forgotten Realms or "High God" for Dragonlance. Unknowable deities often exist alongside the known ones. Typically they are far more powerful(if their existence is ever confirmed to the viewer, though denizens of the world rarely ever get to know).

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Tell me something. What exactly does Morrigan have to gain from lying about that? Every other lie? A advantage (mostly manipulation). What does she have to gain from telling Leliana she's a complete nonbeliever in any religion or gods/goddesses rather than whatever religion you think she follows? 

A shield against her true motivations.

She could've simple said "I't not your business".
Plus, Sten could avoid telling the Warden (or any other companions) the info about the Qunari he didn't want to share. She could've done the same.

Even tho it was none of leliana's business, saying nothing would've invoked curiosity and further suspicion which would've led to further prodding.It makes more sense to throw leliana a bone to sate her curiosity.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


Personally, I very much doubt Andraste was an ordinary woman. I suspect she was a mage at least, if not an OGB.

In this case, wouldn't she be Dumat's reincarnation? Zazikel lead the Second Blight after the creation of the Chantry. She can't be anyone than Dumat, if she's a OGB.

[Emzamination]

Xilizhra wrote...


Personally, I very much doubt Andraste was an ordinary woman. I suspect she was a mage at least, if not an OGB.

I used to doubt this till I recently saw the subject on one of wynne's gift books in game.I think she was a mage now too.

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

Actually, yes.

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it--
something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing
something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I
don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but
you're correct that it definitely pops up.

It seems to be the "writing something over six years" thing.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


Even tho it was none of leliana's business, saying nothing would've invoked curiosity and further suspicion which would've led to further prodding.It makes more sense to throw leliana a bone to sate her curiosity.

Sten successfuly avoided sharing the information about the Qunari he didn't want to share. Morrigan could've done the same.
And it could've been better to sate Leliana's curiosity if she said that she believed in the Maker, don't you think?

Modifié par hhh89, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:02 .