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[LobselVith8]

kirvingtwo wrote...

*laughs*  Morrigan is clearly invoking the maker in this dialogue in order to be manipulative.  She's interested in the potential power of the anvil.  This indicates that she believes that the pc may be swayed by such arguements (delivered somewhat sarcastically btw) .  She's also implying, perhaps erroneously, that the pc believes in the maker.

A figure of speech that doesn't diminish the several times she's made it clear she doesn't believe in the Maker. Also, Morrigan argues towards choices that are pragmatic and empower The Warden against the Blight, such as arguing in favor of Caladrius' blood ritual.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


Even tho it was none of leliana's business, saying nothing would've invoked curiosity and further suspicion which would've led to further prodding.It makes more sense to throw leliana a bone to sate her curiosity.

Sten successfuly avoided sharing the information about the Qunari he didn't want to share. Morrigan could've done the same.

Sten's nature is honorable, not manipulative.

[Xilizhra]

To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?

My "beef" is with most organized religions. I believe spirituality should be a personal matter, not a political one. To base decisions of policy on that which can't be empirically observed strikes me as great folly.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Sten's nature is honorable, not manipulative.

Then it should've been better if Morrigan said to Leliana she believed in the Maker, don't you think?

[Adrian68b]

I once again apologize for offending anyone in this forum.

I do science for living, and I teach scientific methodology. I was talking about the scientific viewpoint about atheism. I hinted about this in my first post here.
An exciting and enjoyable reading is also The Meaning of It All, from Richard Feynman. It is also a BBC documentary with him on Youtube called The Pleasure to Find Out Things.

The thing is that any view concerning the real world is of no consequence in DA universe. DA is a fictional universe, so unless told so we really don't know anything certain about Maker, Old Gods, Fade, darkspawn and/or any connection between. Maybe there is a Maker. maybe not. It is possible also that the Maker created DA and departed, leaving the Old Gods as rulers. Or the spirits. Maybe some spirits possessed high dragons and thus became old gods. We don't know anything for certain.

And that is exciting. Instead of some complete and definitive view like the old D&D games, in Origin any lore concerning deities is just speculative. It is so even about history and religion. We read for instance some text about an ancient DA event written by a specific author who is very likely biased.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



Sten's nature is honorable, not manipulative.

Then it should've been better if Morrigan said to Leliana she believed in the Maker, don't you think?

No, because morrigan is an apostate mage which means she's constantly on the run from templars who are connected to the chantry who worship the maker.

[Ash Wind]

kirvingtwo wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...

I'll throw in my two cents on the Morrigan/Atheists discussion.

My view is that what Morrigan believes, and what she presents to the world are her beliefs are sometimes different things. There's a line in the Anvil of the Void quest that, to me, contradicts the opinion she presents to Leliana in their Maker discussion.

If you are going to destroy the Anvil of the Void and Morrigan is present, she will protest:

Morrigan: Have you no desire to discover this anvil's potential? It is a marvel, a tool of creation!

Morrigan: You could rival the Maker Himself with this instrument.

Morrigan: If you destroy the Anvil, I swear to will regret it.

Is it definitive? No, not by any means, but by the same token, it doesn't sound like the devout atheist she presents in the discussion with Leliana.

I don't know if there are many atheists who think the way to get their point across is to invoke a reference to the powers of a God they don't believe exists.

*laughs*  Morrigan is clearly invoking the maker in this dialogue in order to be manipulative.  She's interested in the potential power of the anvil.  This indicates that she believes that the pc may be swayed by such arguements (delivered somewhat sarcastically btw) .  She's also implying, perhaps erroneously, that the pc believes in the maker.

*laughs sinisterly* Wrong. Replay the scene, I did to get the exact quote. Morrigan is all about Power and Survival. She is in awe of the Anvil's potential, there is no sarasm in how she delivers the line. And I don't have an recollection of there being a discussion between the PC and Morrigan where she would get the idea invoking the maker is her way to get what she wants with the PC. She never mentions the maker in her attempt to convince the PC to do the Dark Ritual, with much bigger stakes for her.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

She has much to gain by leading leliana on about not believing in gods, Like a God child.

I'm sorry, how does leading Leliana on about not believing in any sort of higher power net her an OGB when she proposes that to the Warden? It's not like Leliana and Morrigan are going to engage in some magical tribadism because Leliana was told by Morrigan the latter doesn't believe in any sort of gods.

She believes in the Old Gods, yes. That much is never denied, not even by me. But believing in their existence does not equate to "I believe they're gods and I worship them."

If it did, then everyone in Thedas who believes in the Old Gods as existing and calls them by their title that they're known by would be worshippers of them.

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

No, because morrigan is an apostate mage which means she's constantly on the run from templars who are connected to the chantry who worship the maker.

1) The one does not lead to the other.

2) You truly think that by saying she doesn't worship the Maker, that's going to protect her from the Templars? If anything, that'd increase their hunt for her, because she's now a non-believer on top of being an apostate. The Chantry is the group of people that slaughtered the people of Rivain for refusing to leave/convert back to Andrastianism.

[Vandicus]

Adrian68b wrote...

I once again apologize for offending anyone in this forum.

I do science for living, and I teach scientific methodology. I was talking about the scientific viewpoint about atheism. I hinted about this in my first post here.
An exciting and enjoyable reading is also The Meaning of It All, from Richard Feynman. It is also a BBC documentary with him on Youtube called The Pleasure to Find Out Things.

The thing is that any view concerning the real world is of no consequence in DA universe. DA is a fictional universe, so unless told so we really don't know anything certain about Maker, Old Gods, Fade, darkspawn and/or any connection between. Maybe there is a Maker. maybe not. It is possible also that the Maker created DA and departed, leaving the Old Gods as rulers. Or the spirits. Maybe some spirits possessed high dragons and thus became old gods. We don't know anything for certain.

And that is exciting. Instead of some complete and definitive view like the old D&D games, in Origin any lore concerning deities is just speculative. It is so even about history and religion. We read for instance some text about an ancient DA event written by a specific author who is very likely biased.

Word of god tells us that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. Logical conclusion is that the writer considers something that is widely known by NPCs to be a deity. Its really just a name anyways, but the writer's statements make clear that atheism(rejecting the existence of deities or rejecting belief in deities) in the literal and traditional sense does not apply in Thedas. My whole point has been to say that the author is not incorrect by the definition of atheism when he says atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. 

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?

My "beef" is with most organized religions. I believe spirituality should be a personal matter, not a political one. To base decisions of policy on that which can't be empirically observed strikes me as great folly.

This is, point for point, my exact position on the nature of organized religion. When it invades the realm of domestic policies and starts to have an effect on the politics of a nation, I'm not a fan of it. Less so if it leads to things like violent attacks on innocents.

All that said, I can at the same time respect the plays made by capable people in positions of religious and political power, if they're capable. Like the Borgias.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



Sten's nature is honorable, not manipulative.

Then it should've been better if Morrigan said to Leliana she believed in the Maker, don't you think?

No, because morrigan is an apostate mage which means she's constantly on the run from templars who are connected to the chantry who worship the maker.

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

She has much to gain by leading leliana on about not believing in gods, Like a God child.

I'm sorry, how does leading Leliana on about not believing in any sort of higher power net her an OGB when she proposes that to the Warden? It's not like Leliana and Morrigan are going to engage in some magical tribadism because Leliana was told by Morrigan the latter doesn't believe in any sort of gods.

She believes in the Old Gods, yes. That much is never denied, not even by me. But believing in their existence does not equate to "I believe they're gods and I worship them."

If it did, then everyone in Thedas who believes in the Old Gods as existing and calls them by their title that they're known by would be worshippers of them.

Simple: It's a shroud over her plan to actually obtain the higher power she doesn't believe in? If you can't see the contradiction of her statement and her actions... I dunno what to say.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

Actually, yes.

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it--
something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing
something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I
don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but
you're correct that it definitely pops up.

It seems to be the "writing something over six years" thing.

Looks like Xilizhra brings up an interesting point from Gaider himself.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No, because morrigan is an apostate mage which means she's constantly on the run from templars who are connected to the chantry who worship the maker.

1) The one does not lead to the other.

2) You truly think that by saying she doesn't worship the Maker, that's going to protect her from the Templars? If anything, that'd increase their hunt for her, because she's now a non-believer on top of being an apostate. The Chantry is the group of people that slaughtered the people of Rivain for refusing to leave/convert back to Andrastianism.

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

The "Maker" archetype is common, as I already mentioned. I believe you said you were familiar with D&D fantasy settings. Try searching "Ao" for Forgotten Realms or "High God" for Dragonlance. Unknowable deities often exist alongside the known ones. Typically they are far more powerful(if their existence is ever confirmed to the viewer, though denizens of the world rarely ever get to know).

Sorry but no.  AO had a special category in Forgotten Realms.  Overdiety and AO worked to remove all trace of his worship.  In forgotten realms the authors imposed very strict and well defined rules as to what was a god, what wasn't, and why. 

Thedas does no such thing...so you can't claim a nebulous 'common standard'.  That means we revert back to normal language and in normal language with normal meaning, 'divinity' is a property given by the followers of a being (real or fictional).  Nothing more.  It's entirely a point of view.

-Polaris

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Simple: It's a shroud over her plan to actually obtain the higher power she doesn't believe in? If you can't see the contradiction of her statement and her actions... I dunno what to say.

She wants to obtain the higher power of an Old God, because Old God are very powerful. That doesn't mean that she worships them. The GW believe in the Old Gods, know how much powerful they are. Yet they don't worship them.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?

My "beef" is with most organized religions. I believe spirituality should be a personal matter, not a political one. To base decisions of policy on that which can't be empirically observed strikes me as great folly.

This is, point for point, my exact position on the nature of organized religion. When it invades the realm of domestic policies and starts to have an effect on the politics of a nation, I'm not a fan of it. Less so if it leads to things like violent attacks on innocents.

All that said, I can at the same time respect the plays made by capable people in positions of religious and political power, if they're capable. Like the Borgias.

Religious organizations make for fascinating power structures. Though we borderline on getting threadlocked the more we talk about real world religion, I have the assessment that they're largely used to manipulate and control people like most power structures. These sound like inherently negative things, but many things are tools used to manipulate and control people, the media being another prominent example. Generally I find organized religion to have benign practices, that encourage positive moral behavior in their members akin to civic duty. That is not to say that this power can't be used for evil ends, but that nowadays at least its generally not.

[TEWR]

That's an absurd argument. Everyone believes in the Old Gods. They're actual fact. But people don't believe they're actual gods anymore. They just continue to use the label they are most known by.

And by Gaider's word many years ago, they aren't Creators or even are they beings that were Created. So they aren't a sort of "higher power", any more then the High Dragons we face are. They're intelligent, but they're not godlike beings.

Thedosian scholars have argued that they're just really powerful Dragons that hibernate, as opposed to the argument made by Chantry clergy that claims their entrapment in the very bowels of the earth was the result of the Maker's punishment.

Which, you know, goes in line with some of what Yavana says in the Silent Grove.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

Anders wants to be free and that mages should be free. He lived in the Circle, and was hunted down 7 times. Yet he believes in Andraste and the Maker.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Anders was a circle mage...a circle which is run by the chantry, need I say more?

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Ash Wind wrote...

*laughs sinisterly* Wrong. Replay the scene, I did to get the exact quote. Morrigan is all about Power and Survival. She is in awe of the Anvil's potential, there is no sarasm in how she delivers the line. And I don't have an recollection of there being a discussion between the PC and Morrigan where she would get the idea invoking the maker is her way to get what she wants with the PC. She never mentions the maker in her attempt to convince the PC to do the Dark Ritual, with much bigger stakes for her.

None of that proves she is a believer though and that's the point.  Athiests use expressions in the real world with 'diefic' content all the time and in Thedas, common language and expressions are littered with expressions involving the Maker...just as ours is involving "God", "Hell", and many others.

It doesn't prove a darn thing especially in light of Morrigan's very clear convos elsewhere.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

She doesn't believe in the Maker. And even if she did, plenty of Mages believe in the Maker and Andraste and are like Morrigan -- see Tevinter.

Believing in the Maker doesn't mean a person believes in what the Chantry preaches about Mages. See... oh I dunno... Anders.

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yes she was.  Bethany could have turned herself into the circle in Kirkwall at any time, but she didn't.  For that matter she could have turned herself into the templars in Lothering but didn't.  She was very much an apostate by choice.

-Polaris

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

edit: about Bethany, what IanPolaris said.
Yet Hawke could be very proud of his powers and be a fervent Andrastian. I didn't play Legacy, so I don't know what if they explain Malcolm's stance on the Maker, but since he either though his children about the Maker or was fine Leandra with making them Andrastians, I he might believe in it. And he decided to be an apostate.
And you didn't talk about Anders.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:26 .