895 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The "Maker" archetype is common, as I already mentioned. I believe you said you were familiar with D&D fantasy settings. Try searching "Ao" for Forgotten Realms or "High God" for Dragonlance. Unknowable deities often exist alongside the known ones. Typically they are far more powerful(if their existence is ever confirmed to the viewer, though denizens of the world rarely ever get to know).

Sorry but no.  AO had a special category in Forgotten Realms.  Overdiety and AO worked to remove all trace of his worship.  In forgotten realms the authors imposed very strict and well defined rules as to what was a god, what wasn't, and why. 

Thedas does no such thing...so you can't claim a nebulous 'common standard'.  That means we revert back to normal language and in normal language with normal meaning, 'divinity' is a property given by the followers of a being (real or fictional).  Nothing more.  It's entirely a point of view.

-Polaris

Ao does not attempt to wipe out his own name. It occurs as a matter of course. Ministers of Ao do exist. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the High God is also doing that, because he was never known to the denizens of Dragonlance. The "Maker" is an unknowable deity who is the absentee father figure of Thedas. Ao is the unknowable deity and absentee father figure of the Forgotten Realms cosmology. The only key difference is that one religion flourished while the other did not. 

Also your particular choice of the definition of what a deity is or isn't is your particular choice. You choose the third definition on the list, DG may have been operating by the first definition on the list when he made his statement. That doesn't make his statement wrong.

[KiwiQuiche]

Wow this esculated quickly.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

Yet that's precisely who illegal mage Hawke is - a religiously Andrastian apostate who, along with his family, was hunted by the templars.

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yet Hawke could be very proud of his powers and be a fervent Andrastian. I didn't play Legacy, so I don't know what if they explain Malcolm's stance on the Maker, but since he either though his children about the Maker or was fine Leandra with making them Andrastians, I he might believe in it. And he decided to be an apostate.
And you didn't talk about Anders.

In addition to that, Bethani was no Keli.  Keli really did have a ton of self-loathing just for being a mage.  Bethany had doubts and was a weaker person than her brother.  However, she definately did NOT view her magic as a curse of the maker.  She was a little afraid of her own power is all which is not the same thing at all, and as I already said, whatever her doubts she did NOT join the circle voluntarily.  She was captured.

-Polaris

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

She doesn't believe in the Maker. And even if she did, plenty of Mages believe in the Maker and Andraste and are like Morrigan -- see Tevinter.

Believing in the Maker doesn't mean a person believes in what the Chantry preaches about Mages. See... oh I dunno... Anders.

Oh, and we shouldn't forgot that it's not the religion who dictates that mages should be hunted down and cages. It's the religion's human organization who dictates that.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


She doesn't believe in the Maker. And even if she did, plenty of Mages believe in the Maker and Andraste and are like Morrigan -- see Tevinter.

Believing in the Maker doesn't mean a person believes in what the Chantry preaches about Mages. See... oh I dunno... Anders.

Yes tevinter and it's black divine believe firmly in the maker and Andraste while breaking their laws in the street and behind closed doors every chance they get -- see fenris

Anders has been brought up in the circle since he was a child, of course he's going to be hard wired to the maker.Morrigan on the other hand has been opressed and hunted all her life by templars.You really think she would worship the same deitie that claims they have divine right over her kind? Just because Anders and morrigan both want freedom doesn't mean they share the same motivations or want it for the same reason.

[IanPolaris]

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The "Maker" archetype is common, as I already mentioned. I believe you said you were familiar with D&D fantasy settings. Try searching "Ao" for Forgotten Realms or "High God" for Dragonlance. Unknowable deities often exist alongside the known ones. Typically they are far more powerful(if their existence is ever confirmed to the viewer, though denizens of the world rarely ever get to know).

Sorry but no.  AO had a special category in Forgotten Realms.  Overdiety and AO worked to remove all trace of his worship.  In forgotten realms the authors imposed very strict and well defined rules as to what was a god, what wasn't, and why. 

Thedas does no such thing...so you can't claim a nebulous 'common standard'.  That means we revert back to normal language and in normal language with normal meaning, 'divinity' is a property given by the followers of a being (real or fictional).  Nothing more.  It's entirely a point of view.

-Polaris

Ao does not attempt to wipe out his own name. It occurs as a matter of course. Ministers of Ao do exist. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the High God is also doing that, because he was never known to the denizens of Dragonlance. The "Maker" is an unknowable deity who is the absentee father figure of Thedas. Ao is the unknowable deity and absentee father figure of the Forgotten Realms cosmology. The only key difference is that one religion flourished while the other did not. 

Also your particular choice of the definition of what a deity is or isn't is your particular choice. You choose the third definition on the list, DG may have been operating by the first definition on the list when he made his statement. That doesn't make his statement wrong.

You are not up on your current forgotten lores. It is FG canon that AO does and is trying to remove his own worship.  It's one reason he was a little miffied at his subordinate gods. 

You are also willfully ignoring my point.  In the worlds you cite, their are strict author imposed traits that make a 'god' a 'god' (and what rank).  That overrides any common definition of divinity in that fictional world.

Until you can PROVE that Thedas also has such author imposed traits...and no waffling, we must use the common language definition of god and divinity...and the third definition is the only one applicable to Thedas.

-Polaris

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

She doesn't believe in the Maker. And even if she did, plenty of Mages believe in the Maker and Andraste and are like Morrigan -- see Tevinter.

Believing in the Maker doesn't mean a person believes in what the Chantry preaches about Mages. See... oh I dunno... Anders.

Oh, and we shouldn't forgot that it's not the religion who dictates that mages should be hunted down and cages. It's the religion's human organization who dictates that.

Agreed. Although the Maker sounds like a jerk. Giving the world the Darkspawn to deal with because of the actions of the evil bastards who were opressing everyone else? Insane troll logic worthy of the Crucible

[Hrothdane]

I normally get by with the more mild religious choices with the roleplaying intention that my character is just keeping up appearances, but I would prefer the option to say that I don't believe without attaching any kind of malice or condescension to it.

I don't care what other people believe as long as they aren't using their beliefs to harm others, and I'm not going to lightly antagonize such a powerful and expansive organization as the Chantry anyways, especially if I might need something from them later.

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yes she was.  Bethany could have turned herself into the circle in Kirkwall at any time, but she didn't.  For that matter she could have turned herself into the templars in Lothering but didn't.  She was very much an apostate by choice.

-Polaris

No she wasn't, bethany was an apostate because her family didn't want to let her go.Bethany constantly states she feels bad that they were always on the run because of her and how she should've just been sent to the circle to save them the trouble.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You misundestood what I said Redux...I meant that it would make no sense for her to say she worships the same religion that dictates she (an apostate who values freedom) be hunted down and caged.That would be a contradiction to her character and make no sense.

Yet that's precisely who illegal mage Hawke is - a religiously Andrastian apostate who, along with his family, was hunted by the templars.

Hawke's religion isn't set in stone, that's up for the player to decide.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not even Morrigan's that arrogant. You can't just pull some interpretation like that out of nowhere.

You clearly haven't read the past several pages; they've pulled those interpretations over and over again. Then again, there was actually a poster who tried to claim atheists didn't exist in real life, so you missed out on some of the insanity as well.

When it's Word of God it isn't an interpatation like I've tried to tell you.

But alas I'm done with this thread now I'll just watch the fires burn

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Yes tevinter and it's black divine believe firmly in the maker and Andraste while breaking their laws in the street and behind closed doors every chance they get -- see fenris

Anders has been brought up in the circle since he was a child, of course he's going to be hard wired to the maker. Morrigan on the other hand has been opressed and hunted all her life by templars.You really think she would worship the same deitie that claims they have divine right over her kind? Just because Anders and morrigan both want freedom doesn't mean they share the same motivations or want it for the same reason.

I though she had fun when the templars tried to hunt them. And anyway, how Leliana could know that Morrigan was hunted down by templars? For all she knew, Morrigan could've never encountered a templar in her entire life.

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not even Morrigan's that arrogant. You can't just pull some interpretation like that out of nowhere.

You clearly haven't read the past several pages; they've pulled those interpretations over and over again. Then again, there was actually a poster who tried to claim atheists didn't exist in real life, so you missed out on some of the insanity as well.

When it's Word of God it isn't an interpatation like I've tried to tell you.

But alas I'm done with this thread now I'll just watch the fires burn

How much does Word of God count for when they forget about their own content?

[The Hierophant]

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yes she was.  Bethany could have turned herself into the circle in Kirkwall at any time, but she didn't.  For that matter she could have turned herself into the templars in Lothering but didn't.  She was very much an apostate by choice.

-Polaris

No she wasn't, bethany was an apostate because her family didn't want to let her go.Bethany constantly states she feels bad that they were always on the run because of her and how she should've just been sent to the circle to save them the trouble.

That doesn't disprove the bolded.

[Vandicus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The "Maker" archetype is common, as I already mentioned. I believe you said you were familiar with D&D fantasy settings. Try searching "Ao" for Forgotten Realms or "High God" for Dragonlance. Unknowable deities often exist alongside the known ones. Typically they are far more powerful(if their existence is ever confirmed to the viewer, though denizens of the world rarely ever get to know).

Sorry but no.  AO had a special category in Forgotten Realms.  Overdiety and AO worked to remove all trace of his worship.  In forgotten realms the authors imposed very strict and well defined rules as to what was a god, what wasn't, and why. 

Thedas does no such thing...so you can't claim a nebulous 'common standard'.  That means we revert back to normal language and in normal language with normal meaning, 'divinity' is a property given by the followers of a being (real or fictional).  Nothing more.  It's entirely a point of view.

-Polaris

Ao does not attempt to wipe out his own name. It occurs as a matter of course. Ministers of Ao do exist. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the High God is also doing that, because he was never known to the denizens of Dragonlance. The "Maker" is an unknowable deity who is the absentee father figure of Thedas. Ao is the unknowable deity and absentee father figure of the Forgotten Realms cosmology. The only key difference is that one religion flourished while the other did not. 

Also your particular choice of the definition of what a deity is or isn't is your particular choice. You choose the third definition on the list, DG may have been operating by the first definition on the list when he made his statement. That doesn't make his statement wrong.

You are not up on your current forgotten lores. It is FG canon that AO does and is trying to remove his own worship.  It's one reason he was a little miffied at his subordinate gods. 

You are also willfully ignoring my point.  In the worlds you cite, their are strict author imposed traits that make a 'god' a 'god' (and what rank).  That overrides any common definition of divinity in that fictional world.

Until you can PROVE that Thedas also has such author imposed traits...and no waffling, we must use the common language definition of god and divinity...and the third definition is the only one applicable to Thedas.

-Polaris

Which book establishes that Ao is actively trying to remove his worship?

I would say that all the proof you need is that Word of God says atheism does not exist in Thedas. Under what circumstances can that be true?

A. Atheism is arbitrarily impossible
B. Disbelief in deities is irrational because common knowledge deities exist

I believe they did not go with A. Unless you believe A is true, or can come up with an alternative that explains the impossibility of atheism in Thedas, B. is the logical course of belief.

[Emzamination]

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yet Hawke could be very proud of his powers and be a fervent Andrastian. I didn't play Legacy, so I don't know what if they explain Malcolm's stance on the Maker, but since he either though his children about the Maker or was fine Leandra with making them Andrastians, I he might believe in it. And he decided to be an apostate.
And you didn't talk about Anders.

In addition to that, Bethani was no Keli.  Keli really did have a ton of self-loathing just for being a mage.  Bethany had doubts and was a weaker person than her brother.  However, she definately did NOT view her magic as a curse of the maker.  She was a little afraid of her own power is all which is not the same thing at all, and as I already said, whatever her doubts she did NOT join the circle voluntarily.  She was captured.

-Polaris

Incorrect, she does indeed feel her magic is a curse <Link>

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



Yes tevinter and it's black divine believe firmly in the maker and Andraste while breaking their laws in the street and behind closed doors every chance they get -- see fenris

Anders has been brought up in the circle since he was a child, of course he's going to be hard wired to the maker. Morrigan on the other hand has been opressed and hunted all her life by templars.You really think she would worship the same deitie that claims they have divine right over her kind? Just because Anders and morrigan both want freedom doesn't mean they share the same motivations or want it for the same reason.

I though she had fun when the templars tried to hunt them. And anyway, how Leliana could know that Morrigan was hunted down by templars? For all she knew, Morrigan could've never encountered a templar in her entire life.

The same way wynne knew before ever conversing with morrigan...Alistair.

[Emzamination]

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yes she was.  Bethany could have turned herself into the circle in Kirkwall at any time, but she didn't.  For that matter she could have turned herself into the templars in Lothering but didn't.  She was very much an apostate by choice.

-Polaris

No she wasn't, bethany was an apostate because her family didn't want to let her go.Bethany constantly states she feels bad that they were always on the run because of her and how she should've just been sent to the circle to save them the trouble.

That doesn't disprove the bolded.

It does indeed.Bethany wanted to give herself up but her family wouldn't let her.It's her family's fault she's an apostate, not hers.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



The same way wynne knew before ever conversing with morrigan...Alistair.

And Alistair knows about it becuase he can read minds? In the Korcari Wilds, she said that she went to Lothering, and Alistair asked if the people here ever thought she was an apostate. She said that happened sometimes, and that templars checked her, and let her go. Morrigan said only to the Warden that the sometimes the Templars went on the Wilds to hunt apostates.

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

Yes tevinter and it's black divine believe firmly in the maker and Andraste while breaking their laws in the street and behind closed doors every chance they get -- see fenris

Irrelevant. Your argument was that you can't be a Mage that values power, believes in the Maker and Andraste, and not capitulate to the laws that say a Mage must be kept confined in a Circle.

I proved you wrong.

And none of what you're saying even remotely proves that Morrigan believes in the Maker and that she lied to keep it a secret.  

Anders has been brought up in the circle since he was a child, of course he's going to be hard wired to the maker.Morrigan on the other hand has been opressed and hunted all her life by templars.

Oppressed and hunted? Not really. The Templars did come sometimes, but they were always in manageable numbers and she would always move somewhere else and be safe for years.

Hell, why would Morrigan believe in a deity if she's lived a sheltered life (which she has)? Your argument is that if you live with the Chantry, you'll no doubt worship the Maker. Then you go back on that position and say "And if you live away from the Chantry, you still believe in the Maker."

Um, I'm sorry, what? You can't have it both ways. Morrigan is clearly an atheist. You can't say "LOL, I win because if she's here, she's religious. And if she's there, she's still religious."

You really think she would worship the same deitie that claims they have divine right over her kind? Just because Anders and morrigan both want freedom doesn't mean they share the same motivations or want it for the same reason.

The Maker doesn't claim that. The Chantry does. You're conflating the two.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

How much does Word of God count for when they forget about their own content?

Though this is rhetorical, not much.

[The Hierophant]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...

That doesn't disprove the bolded.
[/quote]

It does indeed.Bethany wanted to give herself up but her family wouldn't let her.It's her family's fault she's an apostate, not hers.[/quote]
[/quote]If Bethany was determined to turn herself over to the circle, she would have left in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep, or walk right up to Thrask during the day.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet that's precisely who illegal mage Hawke is - a religiously Andrastian apostate who, along with his family, was hunted by the templars.

Hawke's religion isn't set in stone, that's up for the player to decide.

I don't get to decide whether or not Hawke thinks Leandra is with the Maker; according to the game, he does. Hawke tells Feynriel he hopes the Maker guides him. The range of choice that was available in Origins isn't provided in Dragon Age II; the choice is out of my control.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



The same way wynne knew before ever conversing with morrigan...Alistair.

And Alistair knows about it becuase he can read minds? In the Korcari Wilds, she said that she went to Lothering, and Alistair asked if the people here ever thought she was an apostate. She said that happened sometimes, and that templars checked her, and let her go. Morrigan said only to the Warden that the sometimes the Templars went on the Wilds to hunt apostates.

No, Alistair knows because the party gossips about each other and the warden off screen as seen here

"

• Alistair: So, you... know that I am a Templar, right?
• Wynne: I believe what I heard was that you were not, in fact, a Templar. You were trained as one before you became a Grey Warden.
• Alistair: That's right. But I still have... all the abilities of one, of course. That doesn't... make you nervous?
• Wynne: Should it? I am no apostate. Perhaps you should be directing this question at Morrigan.
• Alistair: She claims not to be afraid of me... or
  anything, really. But you've had more experience with the Templars than
  her. I know how mages can sometimes..." <link>

Morrigan and Alistair certainly have no conversation about her not fearing templars infront of the Pc.The subject does indeed come up.

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:48 .