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[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet that's precisely who illegal mage Hawke is - a religiously Andrastian apostate who, along with his family, was hunted by the templars.

Hawke's religion isn't set in stone, that's up for the player to decide.

I don't get to decide whether or not Hawke thinks Leandra is with the Maker; according to the game, he does. Hawke tells Feynriel he hopes the Maker guides him. The range of choice that was available in Origins isn't provided in Dragon Age II; the choice is out of my control.

Wait, wat? I've never once gotten this line in living memory.

[TEWR]

Wait, wat? I've never once gotten this line in living memory.

During Night Terrors, if you save Feynriel.

It could just be the Thedosian equivalent of Godspeed, but given all the other times Hawke's invoked the Maker without a voice that could lend itself either way... I doubt it was just that. It was probably that and an actual belief that the Maker will watch over Feynriel, a believer in the Creators.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



No, Alistair knows because the party gossips about each other and the warden off screen as seen here

"

• Alistair: So, you... know that I am a Templar, right?
• Wynne: I believe what I heard was that you were not, in fact, a Templar. You were trained as one before you became a Grey Warden.
• Alistair: That's right. But I still have... all the abilities of one, of course. That doesn't... make you nervous?
• Wynne: Should it? I am no apostate. Perhaps you should be directing this question at Morrigan.
• Alistair: She claims not to be afraid of me... or
  anything, really. But you've had more experience with the Templars than
  her. I know how mages can sometimes..." <link>

Morrigan and Alistair certainly have no conversation about her not fearing templars infront of the Pc.The subject does indeed come up.

Because having no fear from Alistair means that she have experience with the Templars? The phrase is no proof that she's not afraid of Templars either. She simply said  to Alistair that she doesn't fear him.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait, wat? I've never once gotten this line in living memory.

During Night Terrors, if you save Feynriel.

It could just be the Thedosian equivalent of Godspeed, but given all the other times Hawke's invoked the Maker without a voice that could lend itself either way... I doubt it was just that. It was probably that and an actual belief that the Maker will watch over Feynriel, a believer in the Creators.

I do that all the time, and have never gotten that line. At least, not that I remember. The only time I remember the Maker's name being invoked is after All that Remains, and that still didn't stop my Hawke from following the Imperial Chantry.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...



I do that all the time, and have never gotten that line. At least, not that I remember. The only time I remember the Maker's name being invoked is after All that Remains, and that still didn't stop my Hawke from following the Imperial Chantry.

Which is still believing in the Maker though. Being atheist is more difficult.

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...



I do that all the time, and have never gotten that line. At least, not that I remember. The only time I remember the Maker's name being invoked is after All that Remains, and that still didn't stop my Hawke from following the Imperial Chantry.

Which is still believing in the Maker though. Being atheist is more difficult.

I do what I can. I have her stop believing in the Maker altogether after the Orsino fight.

[TEWR]

I do that all the time, and have never gotten that line. At least, not that I remember. The only time I remember the Maker's name being invoked is after All that Remains, and that still didn't stop my Hawke from following the Imperial Chantry.

Maybe it's tone-dependant? I think I was a diplomatic Hawke at the time.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Irrelevant. Your argument was that you can't be a Mage that values
power, believes in the Maker and Andraste, and not capitulate to the
laws that say a Mage must be kept confined in a Circle.

I proved you wrong.

And none of what you're saying even remotely proves that Morrigan believes in the Maker and that she lied to keep it a secret. 

My Argument was pertaining to morrigan's character specifically - Link

you proved nothing

Relevant. Your statement was that mages like morrigan exist within tevinter and Adamantly worship the Maker and Andraste when this is not the case.

Oppressed and hunted? Not really. The Templars did come sometimes, but
they were always in manageable numbers and she would always move
somewhere else and be safe for years.

If she was forced to live a way of life to avoid being executed then she was Oppressed.

Hell, why would Morrigan believe in a deity if she's lived a sheltered life (which she has)? Your argument is that if you live with the Chantry, you'll no doubt worship the Maker. Then you go back on that position and say "And if you live away from the Chantry, you still believe in the Maker."

Um, I'm sorry, what? You can't have it both ways. Morrigan is clearly an atheist. You can't say "LOL, I win because if she's here, she's religious. And if she's there, she's still religious."

I'd love to see this argument.Please link me to all of it.

The Maker doesn't claim that. The Chantry does. You're conflating the two.

The Chantry speaks for the maker and no not literally but they seem to think they do and that's what they tell the templars.

[The Hierophant]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...



I do that all the time, and have never gotten that line. At least, not that I remember. The only time I remember the Maker's name being invoked is after All that Remains, and that still didn't stop my Hawke from following the Imperial Chantry.

Which is still believing in the Maker though. Being atheist is more difficult.

Which is almost next to impossible for Hawke, sadly.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I do what I can. I have her stop believing in the Maker altogether after the Orsino fight.

My Hawke broke the fourth wall and said "Damn you, Bioware!"

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I do what I can. I have her stop believing in the Maker altogether after the Orsino fight.

My Hawke broke the fourth wall and said "Damn you, Bioware!"

Yeah. They completely ruined two characters (Orsino and Meredith). Even though it was completely rushed, I would've liked the Act 3 a lot more if the last part of the game was different if you sided with the mages or the templars, with Meredith and Orsino as a final boss fight for their routes (without the experiments on humans and possibly the red lyrium).

[Emzamination]

Because having no fear from Alistair means
that she have experience with the Templars? The phrase is no proof that
she's not afraid of Templars either. She simply said  to Alistair that
she doesn't fear him.

The point of the context was that the party doesn't always talk within ear shot of the warden and the templar subject has come up off camera with alistair.since wynne knew about morrigan being hunted without ever conversing, the subject has come up within company.

[Emzamination]

The Hierophant wrote...

]If Bethany was determined to turn herself over to the circle, she would have left in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep, or walk right up to Thrask during the day.

I don't know if that judgement can really be made from a third party stand point...You have to take her whole situation into consideration.

Modifié par Emzamination, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

My Argument was pertaining to morrigan's character specifically - Link

In which you claimed that a person that values power and freedom can't believe in the Maker, because by extension they're believing in being oppressed.

Which is wrong.

Relevant. Your statement was that mages like morrigan exist within tevinter and Adamantly worship the Maker and Andraste when this is not the case.

I said that they worshipped the Maker. I didn't say to what extent. And yes they do. They do not worship the Maker and Andraste the same way as the White Chantry does, but they worship them all the same.

I'd love to see this argument.Please link me to all of it.

This entire back-and-forth between us has been about whether or not Morrigan is a believer in any sort of higher power, with you claiming that she is a believer in the Maker and worshipping Him, but she's just manipulating everyone into thinking she's not.

And then saying that she's also using that ruse to acquire an OGB. And then saying she believes in the Old Gods in a religious sense as opposed to a historical and factual one.

Bah, enough. I'm starting to get a headache with all of this.

The Chantry speaks for the maker and no not literally but they seem to think they do and that's what they tell the templars.

And what does any of that have to do with what an individual person believes? Believing in a deity doesn't mean you believe anything and everything a religion dedicated to that deity preaches.

To think such a thing is folly.

[TEWR]

hhh89 wrote...

Yeah. They completely ruined two characters (Orsino and Meredith). Even though it was completely rushed, I would've liked the Act 3 a lot more if the last part of the game was different if you sided with the mages or the templars, with Meredith and Orsino as a final boss fight for their routes (without the experiments on humans and possibly the red lyrium).

Actually, conceptually both ideas could've worked and could've added to their characterization, had enough time and effort been given into the whole game.

From a literary standpoint in the context of the Mage-Templar War and Cassandra's investigation, I'd say the red lyrium in Meredith's clutches was indeed necessary to showcase a few things:

1) Power corrupts, both literally and figuratively (with Meredith taking the Viscount's seat being the figuratively).
2) Her lyrium statue remains leave a brutal and grisly testament to what happened at the Gallows, even if the actual facts surrounding it weren't known to the general public.
3) Make Meredith a more intimidating boss, though I wish she used actual 2-handed animations, abilities, and Templar abilities as well. Plus, I liked the makeshift Golems she made.

The problem really stems from how Bioware handled the conflict and their ideas regarding Orsino and Meredith. The conflict was too black and white in DAII and was made more so by what transpired during the RoA and the reveal that the lyrium idol was to blame for everything.

Then with Orsino, they just didn't give it any effort and worse, let gameplay dictate how the story should play out.

But, this needn't have been the case. Had real effort and time been put into it, Orsino and Meredith could've worked using what Bioware attempted to achieve.

Now that said, I'm against Orsino going Harvestino on us if we've sided with him. But I do think his connection to Quentin should've remained. I would've rather fought a very powerful Force Mage, who does things like Xigbar in KHII did.

But alas, this is really off-topic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

Because having no fear from Alistair means
that she have experience with the Templars? The phrase is no proof that
she's not afraid of Templars either. She simply said  to Alistair that
she doesn't fear him.

The point of the context was that the party doesn't always talk within ear shot of the warden and the templar subject has come up off camera with alistair.since wynne knew about morrigan being hunted without ever conversing, the subject has come up within company.

There's the dialogue between Wynne and Morrigan. It's obvious that an apostate should be hide from the Chantry and the templars. So of course Wynne knew that Morrigan should've been hiding. But Wynne didn't know that she was hunted. Infact, it's Morrigan herself that said to Wynne thaT the Templars came from time to time. But she wasn't oppressed by them, if we consider what Morrigan said. She considered them an annoyance, not a real problem.
So I don't see how Leliana could think that she was oppressed by templars, considering that in every conversation and banters Morrigan considered the templars as an annoyance, not a real threat.

• Wynne: It must have been very difficult for you and your mother, Morrigan, to live always hiding from the Chantry and its hunters.
• Morrigan: Your pitying tone is as unwelcome as it is
  unnecessary, old woman. There was nothing difficult about our lives in
  the slightest.
• Wynne: But surely you must have drawn notice from time
  to time. No matter how powerful you claim to be, you would not wish the
  full attention of the Chantry.
• Morrigan: Hunters did come into the Wilds from time to time. They did not leave.
• Wynne: And the interest of the Chantry was never aroused? I find that difficult to believe.
• Morrigan: I imagine you find many things difficult to believe. Your own preference for the leash you wear, for instance.
• Wynne: There are good reasons for the world for fear mages, even despite our best intentions.
• Morrigan: Your best intentions, perhaps. Their fear concerns me not at all.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
In which you claimed that a person that values power and freedom can't
believe in the Maker, because by extension they're believing in being
oppressed.

Not  A person, morrigan specifically.I didn't say she can't believe in the maker, I said she wouldn't believe in the maker because that's a contradiction to her character.

I said that they worshipped the Maker. I didn't say to what extent. And
yes they do. They do not worship the Maker and Andraste the same way as
the White Chantry does, but they worship them all the same.

How do you know what they worship? They also claim not to use blood magic anymore but we all know that's a lie.Further more how do you know that mages with the singular goal of freedom are even in tevinter? From the way fenris tells it, it seems every mage there has the goal of increasing their power and becoming magisters.I'll also note that tevinter is a free nation so why would anyone there be desiring what they already have?

This entire back-and-forth between us has been about whether or not
Morrigan is a believer in any sort of higher power, with you claiming
that she is a believer in the Maker and worshipping Him, but she's just
manipulating everyone into thinking she's not.

And then saying
that she's also using that ruse to acquire an OGB. And then saying she
believes in the Old Gods in a religious sense as opposed to a historical
and factual one.

Bah, enough. I'm starting to get a headache with all of this.

That Argument doesn't exist Redux.I've continuously said it would make no sense for her to worship the maker due to being hunted by the templars and the maker being their patron deitie.I don't know what you were reading.

And what does any of that have to do with what an individual person
believes? Believing in a deity doesn't mean you believe anything and
everything a religion dedicated to that deity preaches.

The templars are the militant arm of the chantry and protectors of the Divine.If the Divine declares that the maker says her arm has divine right over the mages then guess what? The lyrium doped templars are going to be recognized as having divine right.Personal enforcement is Irrelavant.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...


There's the dialogue between Wynne and Morrigan. It's obvious that an apostate should be hide from the Chantry and the templars. So of course Wynne knew that Morrigan should've been hiding. But Wynne didn't know that she was hunted. Infact, it's Morrigan herself that said to Wynne thaT the Templars came from time to time. But she wasn't oppressed by them, if we consider what Morrigan said. She considered them an annoyance, not a real problem.
So I don't see how Leliana could think that she was oppressed by templars, considering that in every conversation and banters Morrigan considered the templars as an annoyance, not a real threat.

• Wynne: It must have been very difficult for you and your mother, Morrigan, to live always hiding from the Chantry and its hunters.

Wynne specifically says "You and your mother" indicating that she has specifics on the scenerio as an apostate living with their mother is not something one thinks off the top of their head.Wynne says "the chantry and its hunters'" indicating she knew morrigan had been hunted.It's Wynne has gotten the story second hand and morrigan is reaffirming the facts.The fact that wynne could come by that knowlege second hand proves my point that leliana could come by it as well.The specifics of the hunt are irrelavant.

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yet Hawke could be very proud of his powers and be a fervent Andrastian. I didn't play Legacy, so I don't know what if they explain Malcolm's stance on the Maker, but since he either though his children about the Maker or was fine Leandra with making them Andrastians, I he might believe in it. And he decided to be an apostate.
And you didn't talk about Anders.

In addition to that, Bethani was no Keli.  Keli really did have a ton of self-loathing just for being a mage.  Bethany had doubts and was a weaker person than her brother.  However, she definately did NOT view her magic as a curse of the maker.  She was a little afraid of her own power is all which is not the same thing at all, and as I already said, whatever her doubts she did NOT join the circle voluntarily.  She was captured.

-Polaris

Incorrect, she does indeed feel her magic is a curse <Link>

No she doesn't.  She is regretful and feels *at* *times* her magic is a curse.    This (the at times is a curse) is the strain her magic puts on her family and her sense of guilt for it.  This is the doubter.  It also says SHE IS NOT AN APOLOGIST.  She could have turned herself into the circle at any time but didn't

You are completely mischaracterizing your own link.  Bethany is a moderate, not an apologist and she most definately is no Keli.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Emzamination wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Bethany and Hawke would like to have a word with you. Being an apostate doesn't mean that you can't believe in the Maker.
Even Anders, who fled from the Circle seven times, and destroyed a Chantry, is Andrastian.

Bethany wasn't an apostate by choice.Bethany thought her power was a curse while morrigan reveled hers.it makes sense for bethany's character to seek penance in the maker.Hawke is up in the air since the Player base views vary dramatically.

Yes she was.  Bethany could have turned herself into the circle in Kirkwall at any time, but she didn't.  For that matter she could have turned herself into the templars in Lothering but didn't.  She was very much an apostate by choice.

-Polaris

No she wasn't, bethany was an apostate because her family didn't want to let her go.Bethany constantly states she feels bad that they were always on the run because of her and how she should've just been sent to the circle to save them the trouble.

That doesn't disprove the bolded.

It does indeed.Bethany wanted to give herself up but her family wouldn't let her.It's her family's fault she's an apostate, not hers.

No it doesn't.  Bethany could have gone to the gallows at any time when they were in Kirkwall and turned herself in.  There is nothing her family could have done to stop her.  Bethany did NOT want to go to the circle.  She also didn't want the templars to destroy her family when captured.

Once again you completely misunderstand Bethany.

-Polaris

[SirGladiator]

Bethany never wanted to give herself up, she felt guilty at the trouble her family went through to hide her, but she was quite happy to be hidden, she always valued her freedom, its true she valued it even more once she lost it and then regained it, but she always valued it. And now she has her freedom, as well as her faith, and in my playthroughs she also has the mage girl that you save in act 2, so she's got it all . I'd like to see her back in DA3 as one of the mage leaders, that'd be swell.

[TEWR]

Emzamination, is it possible that for the last... I dunno... 4-5 pages we've been arguing a topic that we both agree on? That Morrigan is in fact an atheist?

Because I think that's what's been happening.

Emzamination wrote...

How do you know what they worship? They also claim not to use blood magic anymore but we all know that's a lie.Further more how do you know that mages with the singular goal of freedom are even in tevinter? From the way fenris tells it, it seems every mage there has the goal of increasing their power and becoming magisters.I'll also note that tevinter is a free nation so why would anyone there be desiring what they already have?

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike, and Fenris notes that not everyone in the Imperium are colossal douchebags -- even remarking on how one Archon did in fact outlaw slavery.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[cindercatz]

Just chiming in on the conversation a little bit here...

We don't actually know what Morrigan believes, because she basically asks us to trust her and questions the other belief systems of the game (DA:O). She never aspouses herself to believe or not believe any of it, rather she points out flaws and values of any of the given belief system. I think, based on what we've seen so far, that the Black City/Golden City and Arlathan are the same place, for instance, which is why the elven Eluvians connect directly to it (apparently, from what we've seen so far).

We don't know that Morrigan is athiest, only that she questions others' beliefs. We do know that she believes what she can verify, which to me says that she's really more of a skeptic as a general rule of thumb. She knows things we as the player and other denizens of Thedas don't know, and she only reveals what she feels is necessary. She also has whatever knowledge she can deduce from Flemeth's grimoire. Her belief system is therefore evolving.

Hawke's more difficult, because DA2 doesn't let you color his/her history all that much. Hawke comes from one place, and the Chantry and Androstianism have some role in it. We can play with just how devote he/she is, how dogmatic, etc. or whether he could possibly abandon the Chantry church, but we don't really get to define his entire belief system. That's a failing of having such a developer defined character in a game where we're supposed to be roleplaying our own.

My first city elf Warden, for instance, was agnostic, seeing as the elves' history and belief system were largely unknown to her, and the Chantry likewise was not of her ethnic heritage. So I went with that, and DA:O very easily allowed me to do that.

DA:O allowed for a total range of belief systems, whether the writers claim it or not, because of all the responses available. I had quite the range of PCs, each with their own belief systems: Caelia the CE was true agnostic, Islan the HN was liberal Andrastian, Raelin the Dalish believes full throat in the elvhen pantheon, Reis the mage a skeptic like Morrigan, Dushek the DN a dwarven ancestor worshipper, and Nari the casteless rides the fence between the stone and the Chantry, believing in a practical sense of taking from all whatever benefits her and her family. She basically takes whatever blessing anyone wants to give (as her arc goes along), but doesn't disavow the stone at any point.

So the idea that there are no atheists in Thedas I find a bit odd. I hope very much that they're not planning to outright prove one religion to be true over the others, as it would harm our ability to play different sorts of belief systems honestly within our characters. DA:O pretty well nailed it. DA2 and the recent animated film in particular are kind of pulling in a scary way for me, which hopefully Inquisition will allow us to pull back from (if we choose).

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Wynne specifically says "You and your mother" indicating that she has
specifics on the scenerio as an apostate living with their mother is not
something one thinks off the top of their head.Wynne says "the chantry
and its hunters'" indicating she
knew morrigan had been hunted.It's Wynne has gotten the story second
hand and morrigan is reaffirming the facts.The fact that wynne could
come by that knowlege second hand proves my point that leliana could
come by it as well.The specifics of the hunt are irrelavant.

She probably knew that Alistair and the Warden were saved by Flemeth's mother, and they'll probably told how she saved them, so she knew that her mother is an apostate. This is a thing that Alistair could've told her, because he knew about it.
But about the hunters? She knew that Morrigan is an apostate, since she's a mage outside the Circle. Every  apostate has to hide from the Chantry and its templars, so it's obvious that she knew that they were hiding from the Chantry. There are templars who go in remote areas to find apostated, and Wynne, who lived all his life in the Circle, knew about this. And in her first phrase she suggested that it was difficult for Morrigan to hide from the Templars. Every apostates try to avoid templars. because, as I said, they search apostates even in remote areas, where they have more chance to pass unnoticed.
And after Morrigan said that she and her mother has no difficulty in their lives, Wynne said this:

Wynne: But surely you must have drawn notice from time to time.
No matter how powerful you claim to be, you would not wish the full
attention of the Chantry.


This is a suggestion. She didn't say "I know that you were hunder from templars from time to time". She doesn't have the security that Morrigan was hunted by templars.
And anyway, Morrigan explicitely said that she had no difficulty in her life, and she thinks of the templars as an annoyance, not a real threat. She wan't oppressed by the templars.

[Fallstar]

I don't see how you can even begin to think that Morrigan and Flemeth were oppressed by Templars. They used to play games with them. Morrigan says that after luring the Templars deeper into the Wilds, "That was when the fun began". By all accounts, the Templars provided a spot of light entertainment. Are you perhaps forgetting that Flemeth can turn into a high dragon? Let alone the fear Morrigan shows at the end of Witch Hunt, "She is no abomination, she is not even truly human." To Morrigan and other mages the Templars are a problem for sure, but to Flemeth I doubt they are more than minor annoyances.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 22 septembre 2012 - 10:48 .