895 réponses à ce sujet

[Ridwan]

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

Darkspawns. Hell that alone would give every character reason to believe in something.

So if we saw zombies everyone would all of a sudden turn religious? Really? 

Plus they have mages. Mages who can already do horrible things. Far more likely one of them did it than some invisible diety they can't see.

Yes, they would.

"Zombie attacks"

Most likely response.

"Oh my God"

"What the ****"

"Holy ****"

"Aaargh"

"Dear God help me!"

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

How do you know there were atheists and that they shut upeed? Links please(not wikipedia).

No, most were very religious. I think only women and poets were against religion- because the society said that religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.

You have to be the worst troll on the BSN. Worse than Ctaemobodies or whatever his name was. Please stop trying it is just sad.

[Cultist]

Spicen wrote...
Yup, thats about it.

Again, you forget that DA is a medieval age setting. Even doubting the maker is a punishable crime. Its not the modern world that you can go on and insult other religions or their Gods. All Bioware is doing is trying to be realistic, which is highly commendable. Kudos, Bioware.

Blood Magic is forbidden too, yet Blood Mages exist. And is not a punishable crime - the Warden openly told the priestess that he don't believe in the Maker, and she just expressed her regret, not started shouting "HERETIC!", so I guess not believing in the Maker can bring problems, but not punishable by death. Dwarves and elves live normally believing in their gods. So this medieval argument is overrated.

[Ryzaki]

M25105 wrote...
Yes, they would.

"Zombie attacks"

Most likely response.

"Oh my God"

"What the ****"

"Holy ****"

"Aaargh"

"Dear God help me!"

Nope you said everyone bucko. Wrong. First thing I'd go is "Who the **** created this weapon?" God would be the furthiest thing from my mind. Far likely it's manmade destruction either working as intended or a whoops.

Now some? Sure some might turn to religion but everyone? No.

The second you mention absolutes is the second you've lost an arguement.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Haters gonna hate and while you all hate, I'm going to enjoy playing yet another religious character in DA3 who fights for The Maker.

@David Gaider

And please make sure that one of the battlecries involves shouting out something involving The Maker. Wise human voice in Origins had this just as a diplomatic and aggressive Hawke had a battlecry involving The Maker.

Hell, can we get a religious personality in DA3???

Along with a Templar companion???

[Spicen]

M25105 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

Darkspawns. Hell that alone would give every character reason to believe in something.

Atheists can convice themselves with lots of home-made logic. Dont know, if you are religious but as a religious guy in a developed country atheism is something that i face regularly and its a bit annoying. Even when scientists have said theres no solid of for or against god, people think they are smarter than scientists and say theres no god.If  Its their opinion, let it be so- its not my duty to remind them who created the universe. Amen, glory to the Maker!!!

[Heimdall]

Cultist wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Depends on whether context allows for
you to "do something about them". Then we might consider it, as we'll
consider any reasonable option at least as a possibility on a per-case
basis. In terms of allowing you to consistently express the viewpoint you just did-- no, as I said that's not something we would support.

And to those who seem to be about to drag the thread into an argument about real-world religion-- please don't.

So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

[Xilizhra]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Haters gonna hate and while you all hate, I'm going to enjoy playing yet another religious character in DA3 who fights for The Maker.

@David Gaider

And please make sure that one of the battlecries involves shouting out something involving The Maker. Wise human voice in Origins had this just as a diplomatic and aggressive Hawke had a battlecry involving The Maker.

Hell, can we get a religious personality in DA3???

Along with a Templar companion???

Adding it in battle cries is silly. There's no reason to tilt any kind of default voice in that direction.

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[Ridwan]

I'm on the religious war wagon, as long as the player character gets to shout stuff like "Burn heretic" or "By fire be purged" "For the Maker" "Die in the Maker's name" "I am the Maker's wrath".

Certainly sounds cooler than "Die in the non-existentant deity I don't believe in"

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.

How about agnosticism?

Actually, being a fictional world, the authors CAN in fact make it be the case where gods either exist or don't, instead of leaving it up in the air, at least for the viewers. For example we know that gods really do exist in the elder scrolls universe.

Has there been any moments of divine intervention in the series? The Andraste quest in DAO had all sorts of weird things didn't it. Particularly with the ashes. Either it was a coincidence, a placebo effect, or ashes cure cancer in thedas. The first two seem pretty unlikely

[Eternal Phoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Haters gonna hate and while you all hate, I'm going to enjoy playing yet another religious character in DA3 who fights for The Maker.

@David Gaider

And please make sure that one of the battlecries involves shouting out something involving The Maker. Wise human voice in Origins had this just as a diplomatic and aggressive Hawke had a battlecry involving The Maker.

Hell, can we get a religious personality in DA3???

Along with a Templar companion???

Adding it in battle cries is silly. There's no reason to tilt any kind of default voice in that direction.

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

You clearly don't remember the voices for Origins or some of Hawke's battlecries do you?

[Xilizhra]

Has there been any moments of divine intervention in the series? The Andraste quest in DAO had all sorts of weird things didn't it. Particularly with the ashes. Either it was a coincidence, a placebo effect, or ashes cure cancer in thedas. The first two seem pretty unlikely

Coincidence. The lyrium wall. Either that or the ashes were deliberately stored in a high-magic area.

You clearly don't remember the voices for Origins or some of Hawke's battlecries do you?

I do. They were silly. At least for Hawke; you had more options to avoid that in Origins.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Spicen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

How do you know there were atheists and that they shut upeed? Links please(not wikipedia).

No, most were very religious. I think only women and poets were against religion- because the society said that religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.

Only thing all human beings will do is die.

Atheist scientists disagree.

[Eternal Phoenix]

M25105 wrote...

I'm on the religious war wagon, as long as the player character gets to shout stuff like "Burn heretic" or "By fire be purged" "For the Maker" "Die in the Maker's name" "I am the Maker's wrath".

Certainly sounds cooler than "Die in the non-existentant deity I don't believe in"

Yeah man. Bioware should take notes of these battlecries.

"I am THE MAKER'S WRATH!"

Just sounds epic.

[Gewehr_fr]

Is it that really important / immersion breaking?

I mean, I'm atheist IRL, yet within the Dragon Age Universe where such things as magic, the fade, ghosts, demons, miracles (Andraste's Ashes) exist, it would be strange not to at very least express doubt about the existence of the Maker.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Only if the next Mass Effect lets us show if we believe in God... problem?

In ME3 it is quite assumed that Shepard is christian, not that it bothers me at all:

- Shepard to Wrex about Mordin: "I'm sure that wherever he is now... he's watching us"
- Shepard to Thane: "You won't be alone for long"
- Shepard to Garrus, priority Earth: "I'll be looking down, you'll never be alone"

(approximative quotes)

[Ridwan]

Elton John is dead wrote...

M25105 wrote...

I'm on the religious war wagon, as long as the player character gets to shout stuff like "Burn heretic" or "By fire be purged" "For the Maker" "Die in the Maker's name" "I am the Maker's wrath".

Certainly sounds cooler than "Die in the non-existentant deity I don't believe in"

Yeah man. Bioware should take notes of these battlecries.

"I am THE MAKER'S WRATH!"

Just sounds epic.

Damn straight! Besides, as a religious person myself I think the Maker is just another word for God, helps that the Maker is never depicted, so that makes it extra cool to slay heretic darkspawns. All that's missing are battlecries.

"I am the Maker's wrath incarnate, burn in righteous fury demon filth!" Ah yeaaaah!

[Spicen]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

M25105 wrote...

An atheist just wouldn't make sense in Dragon Age if you ask me. You could make an argument for it in Mass Effect (I chose not to give an atheist reply to Ashley), but in a fantasy world of Dragon Age?

Why not? There were atheists in medievel ages. They just kept their mouth shut because the price of admitting it was ridculous.

How do you know there were atheists and that they shut upeed? Links please(not wikipedia).

No, most were very religious. I think only women and poets were against religion- because the society said that religion told them that women were below men. And poets could not write whatever they want, thats why they hated religion.

You have to be the worst troll on the BSN. Worse than Ctaemobodies or whatever his name was. Please stop trying it is just sad.

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means? I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

[Xilizhra]

Elton John is dead wrote...

M25105 wrote...

I'm on the religious war wagon, as long as the player character gets to shout stuff like "Burn heretic" or "By fire be purged" "For the Maker" "Die in the Maker's name" "I am the Maker's wrath".

Certainly sounds cooler than "Die in the non-existentant deity I don't believe in"

Yeah man. Bioware should take notes of these battlecries.

"I am THE MAKER'S WRATH!"

Just sounds epic.

And if you want that, I want a battlecry along the lines of "Dumat, grant me your powers!"

In ME3 it is quite assumed that Shepard is christian, not that it bothers me at all:

- Shepard to Wrex about Mordin: "I'm sure that wherever he is now... he's watching us"
- Shepard to Thane: "You won't be alone for long"
- Shepard to Garrus, priority Earth: "I'll be looking down, you'll never be alone"

None of that even comes close to assuming Christianity in particular.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Spicen]

Cultist wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Yup, thats about it.

Again, you forget that DA is a medieval age setting. Even doubting the maker is a punishable crime. Its not the modern world that you can go on and insult other religions or their Gods. All Bioware is doing is trying to be realistic, which is highly commendable. Kudos, Bioware.

Blood Magic is forbidden too, yet Blood Mages exist. And is not a punishable crime - the Warden openly told the priestess that he don't believe in the Maker, and she just expressed her regret, not started shouting "HERETIC!", so I guess not believing in the Maker can bring problems, but not punishable by death. Dwarves and elves live normally believing in their gods. So this medieval argument is overrated.

About the dwarves and elves- they have some religious believes right?

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

The person I was responding to stated them as if they were the same thing and that they could not act against the Chantry without tearing down the beliefs of most of Thedas' population.  You may prefer it that way.  I was just saying that being able to express an atheistic viewpoint is not necessary for opposing the chantry.

[Ridwan]

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Is it that really important / immersion breaking?

I mean, I'm atheist IRL, yet within the Dragon Age Universe where such things as magic, the fade, ghosts, demons, miracles (Andraste's Ashes) exist, it would be strange not to at very least express doubt about the existence of the Maker.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Only if the next Mass Effect lets us show if we believe in God... problem?

In ME3 it is quite assumed that Shepard is christian, not that it bothers me at all:

- Shepard to Wrex about Mordin: "I'm sure that wherever he is now... he's watching us"
- Shepard to Thane: "You won't be alone for long"
- Shepard to Garrus, priority Earth: "I'll be looking down, you'll never be alone"

(approximative quotes)

You don't have to be a Christian to believe in God.

[Xilizhra]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

The person I was responding to stated them as if they were the same thing and that they could not act against the Chantry without tearing down the beliefs of most of Thedas' population.  You may prefer it that way.  I was just saying that being able to express an atheistic viewpoint is not necessary for opposing the chantry.

True. Though I admit... if I can't be an atheist, being allowed to follow the Creators or Old Gods would be worth it.

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

The person I was responding to stated them as if they were the same thing and that they could not act against the Chantry without tearing down the beliefs of most of Thedas' population.  You may prefer it that way.  I was just saying that being able to express an atheistic viewpoint is not necessary for opposing the chantry.

True. Though I admit... if I can't be an atheist, being allowed to follow the Creators or Old Gods would be worth it.

Why? Creators, again, minor impact on character decisions. I've yet to see a way in which the lack of Andrastian belief adds to a character unless they themselves are religiously fanatical(or fanatically anti-religious). 
Old Gods on the other hand. That's a pretty abhorent religion. Blood magic and human sacrifice. 

Why would you want Bioware to make a game with a protagonist who worships the Old Gods? Seems like a pretty messed up option. Not a huge fan personally of the option to make one of the "disappearing heroes" a complete monster. 

[Heimdall]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Come now, we all know that they are in many ways analogous.  It has always been implied that the vast majority of Thedas' population are Andrastrian to varying degrees of devotion.