895 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

A. There are a lot of very certain and very restrictive definitions of God in here. Higher power? How bout all-present? Not the same thing. Or even the act of creation? If there is no beginning and no end, where is the initial act of creation? That doesn't preclude god either. The Maker is seen as an omnipotent creator being or "man in the sky" (another very limited definition of "god"). The "Old Gods" are seen as granting aspects of creation according to merit or whim, very different, very pagan, yet another definition of "god" that Morrigan at the very least values because she can verify its existence (like she also does with something or another beyond the Eluvian and with the secrets of Flemeth's grimoire). We know that Morrigan does not accept the Chantry version of the Maker or Andrastianism. We do not know she is an athiest.

B. Agnostism and Athiesm are very different things. One cannot be both at the same time. Agnostism accepts a lack of knowledge (A-without, gnostic-knowledge), and is meant to imply one simply doesn't know if there is a god or not, or if there is, any details about said god or gods or deification or what have you. Athiesm simply rejects the concept of god entirely, with certainty (A-without, thiest-belief in god), and implies one has a dogma of the rejection of the existence of god, not that one simply doesn't know. People like to lump them together nowdays, but there is no such thing as an "agnostic athiest".

We don't really know how much Morrigan knows, so we can't really call her agnostic, and while she doesn't follow anybody else's religion, or any simple "man in the sky" "higher power", that also does not mean she is an athiest, since in those cases she's referring to the more recent, very simple notions of god proposed by the Chantry. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she even expresses interest in what happens beyond the fade to some extent, and she's certainly very intent on something she discovered concerning the Black City. There are things she knows that we don't, and she is most intent on some form of higher service, setting some dire and apocalyptic thing right, hence all the warnings of change coming and her reluctance to give even an inkling of what she does know. Nobody can rightly call Morrigan an athiest or an agnostic at this point, which is why I stick with the more philosophical "skeptic".

Inquisition:
As a grand inquisitor, our character will of course be part of the Chantry power structure. That, however, does not prescript what his/her personal beliefs are. There are reams of people in all manor of religious authority that are just as agnostic, or athiest, as any professed non-believer. A position of power withing a powerful central authority like the Orlesian Chantry doesn't necessarily require our characters to even accept Andrastianism internally, unless the dialogue only allows that sort of option throughout the game. We really don't know at this point. Storywise, they would have to at least play the part to have their position, but historically, there are many, many who have done exactly that. So who knows?

[General User]

As I recall, Morrigan did believe in a higher power. Quite a number of them actually. She just didn't have any reverence for any of them.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Absence of belief is not in itself an indication of atheism. An agnostic could very well take the same stance. Agnostics don't believe in any gods.

In a society where the Andrastian Chantry is the only religion, it's a valid option for The Warden to express an atheist viewpoint. Many have done so with that specific intention with the Cousland and Surana Warden, myself included (for the latter).

I'm not sure how this addresses my statement. Not believing in the Maker is not atheistic(the Qunari do not believe in the Maker). Believeing that the Maker does not exist is also not atheistic(different religions deny the validity of each other, and their members are not considered atheists). Belief that no gods exist is atheistic, which is not something stated by Morrigan or possible to state for the Warden PC.

I believe the writer, in establishing that atheism does not exist in Thedas, indicates that it is impossible to believe that no gods exist in Thedas, meaning that real gods(what the writer considers gods) are known by the people of Thedas. 

[Adrian68b]

Bioware was clever. The name "Maker" was obviously chosen to be one about a God who created the DA Universe (or at least the DA planet) and different enough to not be confused with the general term as God. The interesting part of DA lore is that although Tevinter / barbarian clans used the word God, the ancient elves name was Creators.
It is fascinating, because could also be a newly introduced name (during second Arlathan) to be similar with Maker.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Absence of belief is not in itself an indication of atheism. An agnostic could very well take the same stance. Agnostics don't believe in any gods.

In a society where the Andrastian Chantry is the only religion, it's a valid option for The Warden to express an atheist viewpoint. Many have done so with that specific intention with the Cousland and Surana Warden, myself included (for the latter).

I'm not sure how this addresses my statement. Not believing in the Maker is not atheistic(the Qunari do not believe in the Maker). Believeing that the Maker does not exist is also not atheistic(different religions deny the validity of each other, and their members are not considered atheists). Belief that no gods exist is atheistic, which is not something stated by Morrigan or possible to state for the Warden PC.

I believe the writer, in establishing that atheism does not exist in Thedas, indicates that it is impossible to believe that no gods exist in Thedas, meaning that real gods(what the writer considers gods) are known by the people of Thedas. 

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Absence of belief is not in itself an indication of atheism. An agnostic could very well take the same stance. Agnostics don't believe in any gods.

In a society where the Andrastian Chantry is the only religion, it's a valid option for The Warden to express an atheist viewpoint. Many have done so with that specific intention with the Cousland and Surana Warden, myself included (for the latter).

I'm not sure how this addresses my statement. Not believing in the Maker is not atheistic(the Qunari do not believe in the Maker). Believeing that the Maker does not exist is also not atheistic(different religions deny the validity of each other, and their members are not considered atheists). Belief that no gods exist is atheistic, which is not something stated by Morrigan or possible to state for the Warden PC.

I believe the writer, in establishing that atheism does not exist in Thedas, indicates that it is impossible to believe that no gods exist in Thedas, meaning that real gods(what the writer considers gods) are known by the people of Thedas. 

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

They might simply say "I believe no gods exist". You can't automatically assume someone is an atheist based on rejection of one doctrine.

Instead Morrigan goes the far more interesting route of believing in no higher powers. I theorize that she will attempt to reach Flemeth's power level and then try to supercede it. The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

[Xellith]

I hope they dont have plans to have morrigans soul leap into the childs body similarly to how Justice did with that dead guy.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

But we actually know what the writer thinks in this case. DG made it clear that atheism(in our modern sense at least) does not exist in Thedas. Now that basically means one of two things.

A. Atheism is arbitrarily impossible in Thedas
B. Atheism is impossible by virtue of things that the writer considers gods being known facts to the populace.(In this case I believe these known gods are the Old Gods, though Flemeth and other localized beings might count. In fact demons and spirits might qualify as minor deities from the writer's perspective).

Actually, we know that the writer was wrong:

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?

Actually, yes.

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- 
something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing 
something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I 
don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but
you're correct that it definitely pops up.

It seems to be the "writing something over six years" thing.

[Ryzaki]

Vandicus wrote..

But we actually know what the writer thinks in this case. DG made it clear that atheism(in our modern sense at least) does not exist in Thedas. Now that basically means one of two things.

A. Atheism is arbitrarily impossible in Thedas
B. Atheism is impossible by virtue of things that the writer considers gods being known facts to the populace.(In this case I believe these known gods are the Old Gods, though Flemeth and other localized beings might count. In fact demons and spirits might qualify as minor deities from the writer's perspective).

As for the Reapers powers being "scientifically" derived, yeah its totally space magic, ergo the quotes around the word scientific. But when people view powers as a result of science, they don't usually qualify as supernatural beings.

The ending of ME3 was annoying to me not because of any similarity in the endings, or even the minorly foreshadowed deus ex machina, but because it lacks any semblence of internal continuity(and the whole insane troll logic of the AI). Just five minutes previous Shepard goes through the whole moral debate about why TIM's path is wrong/impossible, and here he has the option to turn around and invalidate everything that he/she's done in the previous games because of the need for a "happy" ending.

...they're made by using human slushies...that's not science. But yeah wrong thread to be debating Reapers scientific legitmacy.

Yeah...kind of agree kind of disagree but this is not the thread for it sadly.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

We already know the Maker is real. There is no atheist option because it wouldn't make any sense at this point. Andraste's ashes prove the Maker's existence and prove that the story about her being a prophet is true.

One could argue that confirming the Maker's existence was a dumb move, but it doesn't change the fact that what's done is done.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Xilizhra]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

We already know the Maker is real. There is no atheist option because it wouldn't make any sense at this point. Andraste's ashes prove the Maker's existence and prove that the story about her being a prophet is true.

One could argue that confirming the Maker's existence was a dumb move, but it doesn't change the fact that what's done is done.

Lyrium wall in the mountain. Nothing was proven.

[Vandicus]

Xellith wrote...

I hope they dont have plans to have morrigans soul leap into the childs body similarly to how Justice did with that dead guy.

That's not entirely impossible. Flemeth was a bit of a body jumper and Morrigan learned about her techniques before sending the Warden to slow her down.

[cindercatz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

Or an attempt to raise a sane god that would challenge the authority of a pre-existing power she accepts the existence of and rejects in principle? Seems like something she'd do.

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

They might simply say "I believe no gods exist". You can't automatically assume someone is an atheist based on rejection of one doctrine.

Instead Morrigan goes the far more interesting route of believing in no higher powers. I theorize that she will attempt to reach Flemeth's power level and then try to supercede it. The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

They might simply say "I believe no gods exist". You can't automatically assume someone is an atheist based on rejection of one doctrine.

Instead Morrigan goes the far more interesting route of believing in no higher powers. I theorize that she will attempt to reach Flemeth's power level and then try to supercede it. The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

Yep they can totally say that. However, the line "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I believe God doesn't exist" or the same as "I believe no gods exist"(the only true atheistic line among the three here). The term atheism is used far too generally in this thread and has multiple times not been properly been distinguished from agnosticism.

Modifié par Vandicus, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[Zobo]

cindercatz wrote...

Agnostism and Athiesm are very different things. One cannot be both at the same time. Agnostism accepts a lack of knowledge (A-without, gnostic-knowledge), and is meant to imply one simply doesn't know if there is a god or not, or if there is, any details about said god or gods or deification or what have you. Athiesm simply rejects the concept of god entirely, with certainty (A-without, thiest-belief in god), and implies one has a dogma of the rejection of the existence of god, not that one simply doesn't know. People like to lump them together nowdays, but there is no such thing as an "agnostic athiest".

I think I'll leave it here:
www.youtube.com/watch

[Xilizhra]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

They might simply say "I believe no gods exist". You can't automatically assume someone is an atheist based on rejection of one doctrine.

Instead Morrigan goes the far more interesting route of believing in no higher powers. I theorize that she will attempt to reach Flemeth's power level and then try to supercede it. The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

Yep they can totally say that. However, the line "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I believe God doesn't exist" or the same as "I believe no gods exist"(the only true atheistic line among the three here). The term atheism is used far too generally in this thread and has multiple times not been properly been distinguished from agnosticism.

Incorrect. What you're talking about is antitheism. Atheism is simply the lack of an active belief in a god. Agnosticism is actually talking about something completely different; it's possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, as well as a gnostic theist or gnostic atheist,

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's ridiculous. It's like saying atheists aren't atheists if they say they don't believe in God. Are they not atheists until they verbally dismiss belief in every single deity in every single region of the planet?

They might simply say "I believe no gods exist". You can't automatically assume someone is an atheist based on rejection of one doctrine.

Instead Morrigan goes the far more interesting route of believing in no higher powers. I theorize that she will attempt to reach Flemeth's power level and then try to supercede it. The OGB thing might very well be an attempt to steal the powers of a god. 

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

Yep they can totally say that. However, the line "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I believe God doesn't exist" or the same as "I believe no gods exist"(the only true atheistic line among the three here). The term atheism is used far too generally in this thread and has multiple times not been properly been distinguished from agnosticism.

Incorrect. What you're talking about is antitheism. Atheism is simply the lack of an active belief in a god. Agnosticism is actually talking about something completely different; it's possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, as well as a gnostic theist or gnostic atheist,

Try reading the post again. My atheistic line among the three is indeed atheistic, and previous two lines are possible for people who have other religions. . 

Do you think the line "I don't believe in God" makes one an atheist, yes or no? If so, my statements were not incorrect even by the definitions of atheism that you bring.

 The terminology for atheism is disputed, but in this case I treat it as the positive affirmative belief in the absence of deities. I believe that this is the only proper way to distinguish it from most skeptic attitudes. 

[cindercatz]

Like I said, a lot of people like to say otherwise nowdays, but they are truly competing schools of thought, not part and parcel of the same thing.

Zobo wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

Agnostism and Athiesm are very different things. One cannot be both at the same time. Agnostism accepts a lack of knowledge (A-without, gnostic-knowledge), and is meant to imply one simply doesn't know if there is a god or not, or if there is, any details about said god or gods or deification or what have you. Athiesm simply rejects the concept of god entirely, with certainty (A-without, thiest-belief in god), and implies one has a dogma of the rejection of the existence of god, not that one simply doesn't know. People like to lump them together nowdays, but there is no such thing as an "agnostic athiest".

I think I'll leave it here:
www.youtube.com/watch

That's an excellent video, btw. Thanks for posting it. On the other hand, I'm a 1 on that scale, but I can no more prove my personal experience to anyone than a 7. lol So probability goes out the window. Great bit though. I'd say in this man's particular viewpoint, he simply can't say with scientific certainty, but he believes personally that he knows (believes, really, but by the scale of religiousity, which is in itself not a correct description of one's certainty of whether god exists or not, but that's neither here nor there.) there is no god. He puts himself at a six, but only because his professional intellectual ethic won't allow him to place himself at seven. Not truly agnostic or athiest, but an extreme skeptic. ;-)

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[Vandicus]

Frostbringer wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

...

B. Agnostism and Athiesm are very different things. One cannot be both at the same time. Agnostism accepts a lack of knowledge (A-without, gnostic-knowledge), and is meant to imply one simply doesn't know if there is a god or not, or if there is, any details about said god or gods or deification or what have you. Athiesm simply rejects the concept of god entirely, with certainty (A-without, thiest-belief in god), and implies one has a dogma of the rejection of the existence of god, not that one simply doesn't know. People like to lump them together nowdays, but there is no such thing as an "agnostic athiest".

...

The sentence in bold is not true. Agnostic = without knowledge whether or not god exists (everyone is agnostic unless proof exists and is known to them). Atheist = without belief in a deity. So a person can be both agnostic AND atheistic at the same time: doesn't know, but doesn't believe either.

/facepalm

That's not the definition of agnostic. That is perhaps the most gross overgeneralization of a term yet in this thread. Not everyone is an agnostic, not even close.

Strictly speaking there is overlap for atheism and agnosticism due to dispute over what exactly atheism constitutes. But you're totally misunderstanding the word agnosticism there.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

Yep they can totally say that. However, the line "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I believe God doesn't exist" or the same as "I believe no gods exist"(the only true atheistic line among the three here). The term atheism is used far too generally in this thread and has multiple times not been properly been distinguished from agnosticism.

People say Morrigan voices an atheist view because she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; people have said they chose for their Warden to be atheist because the option was available to say they didn't believe in the Maker, and to dismiss the idea that Andraste was divine.

You seem to be trying to impose your own speculations about Morrigan as fact, in contradiction to what she explicitly says about her views, and your attempts to invalidate the choices people made for atheist Wardens doesn't change the fact that they chose such a line because they wanted to express an atheist viewpoint.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They can say, "I don't believe in God." Whether you like it or not.

Yep they can totally say that. However, the line "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I believe God doesn't exist" or the same as "I believe no gods exist"(the only true atheistic line among the three here). The term atheism is used far too generally in this thread and has multiple times not been properly been distinguished from agnosticism.

People say Morrigan voices an atheist view because she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; people have said they chose for their Warden to be atheist because the option was available to say they didn't believe in the Maker, and to dismiss the idea that Andraste was divine.

You seem to be trying to impose your own speculations about Morrigan as fact, in contradiction to what she explicitly says about her views, and your attempts to invalidate the choices people made for atheist Wardens doesn't change the fact that they chose such a line because they wanted to express an atheist viewpoint.

I'm trying to impose what the writer views as fact. No atheists in Thedas. Word of god. My speculations as to the exact meaning of Morrigan's statements are merely speculations, but they are one way to explain her statements. The writer already told you directly that you are misunderstanding what she said.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

People say Morrigan voices an atheist view because she says she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; people have said they chose for their Warden to be atheist because the option was available to say they didn't believe in the Maker, and to dismiss the idea that Andraste was divine.

You seem to be trying to impose your own speculations about Morrigan as fact, in contradiction to what she explicitly says about her views, and your attempts to invalidate the choices people made for atheist Wardens doesn't change the fact that they chose such a line because they wanted to express an atheist viewpoint.

I'm trying to impose what the writer views as fact. No atheists in Thedas. Word of god. My speculations as to the exact meaning of Morrigan's statements are merely speculations, but they are one way to explain her statements. The writer already told you directly that you are misunderstanding what she said.

The man claimed atheism didn't exist and that the Cousland Warden couldn't express the view, but he was proven wrong about an Origin he wrote over six years ago. Gaider's quote addressed that he made the mistake.