895 réponses à ce sujet

[Adrian68b]

"In many fantasy games, most of the things that various types of athiests would not normally believe in, exist. From magic, to werewolves, to vampires, to yes, even gods, all feature heavily in fantasy settings. Furthermore, not only is Thedas filled with various fantastical phenomena, it is also inspired by an era where much of the populace believed them to be real (except in Thedas, they often are real)."

Exactly. And I am very happy to play such a game, if the story is good. Right now I am about to finish reading "The way of kings" by Brian Sanderson, and I am really fascinated. It is for me the best fictional book for some time.
To be an atheist in my case is nothing like Dawkins - being rude and insulting. Some of my closer friends are priests, christian and muslim alike. No problem for me or for them.

[Iosev]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Morrigan disputes this kind of thinking in her conversation with Leliana. As she said: 


Leliana:
But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous
things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.


It means faith isn't mandatory.

You continue to cite the conversation between Morrigan and Leliana, but you're only showing its text, where tone is also an important part of conversation. Specifically, Morrigan's tone can be interpreted as both playful and argumentative, whereas Leliana can be perceived as the more serious one in the debate. The conversations, as a whole, struck me more as Morrigan challenging Leliana's beliefs, and not so much a confiding of her own true beliefs.

I just do not think that those conversations are unequivocal evidence that Morrigan is an atheist.

Modifié par arcelonious, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[cindercatz]

Agreed. ^

I'm just enjoying the conversation, tbh.

Oh and to the "are you crazy", you oughta see my combat system posts, lol. Just having some fun.

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[Vandicus]

arcelonious wrote...


I just do not think that those conversations are unequivocal evidence that Morrigan is an atheist.

This is key. The conversation is not conclusive evidence that Morrigan is an atheist. The writer says Morrigan isn't, so she isn't. We merely have to reconcile the statements with an interpretation that does not contradict our absolute knowledge that Morrigan is not an atheist and that her statements there did not constitute atheism.

[LobselVith8]

Calians wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

For Dragon Age, it mostly has to due with how some fans find the Chantry of Andraste to be a repugnant and monstrous religion. Not everyone has the same opinion, of course. I don't like the Andrastian Chantry; I don't find it entertaining to play as a protagonist who is religiously Andrastian. That doesn't mean I always play as atheists, simply that I hate this particular fictional religion. In Skyrim, I play as an assassin of Sithis, and as a Tribunal mage; two Dunmer who follow a particular religion. In Dragon Age, I simply don't want to be forced to follow the Andrastian Chantry. In Origins, my Surana Warden expressed disbelief in the Maker and in Andraste as a divine person. I didn't see why my apostate Hawke had to be railroaded into a religious Andrastian when I'm supposed to shape who the protagonist is.

So self-entitled. Last time I checked it wasn't you making the game. Don't like what they did? Don't buy DA3 when it comes out, it's not that hard. Continue to complain about this won't do anything.

I wasn't claiming that I made the game, I explained why some people dislike the Chantry and don't want to play religiously Andrastian protagonists (or even serve the Chantry). I also expressed the dialogue option my Surana Warden had chosen to express that he didn't believe in the Maker, as well as telling Leliana that he didn't believe Andraste was a divine person. With Velanna in Amaranthine, he told her that Andraste used their people for her own ends; he wasn't religiously Andrastian.

[Adrian68b]

"I'm just enjoying the conversation, tbh.
Oh and to the "are you crazy", you oughta see my combat system posts, lol. Just having some fun."

The same for me. Thanks, cindercats.

[LobselVith8]

arcelonious wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Morrigan disputes this kind of thinking in her conversation with Leliana. As she said: 


Leliana:
But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous 
things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.


It means faith isn't mandatory.

You continue to cite the conversation between Morrigan and Leliana, but you're only showing its text, where tone is also an important part of conversation. Specifically, Morrigan's tone can be interpreted as both playful and argumentative, whereas Leliana can be perceived as the more serious one in the debate. The conversations, as a whole, struck me more as Morrigan challenging Leliana's beliefs, and not so much a confiding of her own true beliefs.

I just do not think that those conversations are unequivocal evidence that Morrigan is an atheist.

I cited it to show that magic doesn't automatically mean gods exist.

[Calians]

arcelonious wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Morrigan disputes this kind of thinking in her conversation with Leliana. As she said: 


Leliana:
But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous
things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.


It means faith isn't mandatory.

You continue to cite the conversation between Morrigan and Leliana, but you're only showing its text, where tone is also an important part of conversation. Specifically, Morrigan's tone can be interpreted as both playful and argumentative, whereas Leliana can be perceived as the more serious one in the debate. The conversations, as a whole, struck me more as Morrigan challenging Leliana's beliefs, and not so much a confiding of her own true beliefs.

I just do not think that those conversations are unequivocal evidence that Morrigan is an atheist.

In other words, Morrigan is a troll to Leliana.  Don't see why they take Morrigans words and try to use them for their own case. David has adressed this already, but yet they complain still. 

Modifié par Calians, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

This is key. The conversation is not conclusive evidence that Morrigan is an atheist. The writer says Morrigan isn't, so she isn't. We merely have to reconcile the statements with an interpretation that does not contradict our absolute knowledge that Morrigan is not an atheist and that her statements there did not constitute atheism.

What's key is how you missed the point entirely. The quote was used in the last page to explain why faith isn't mandatory for the Dragon Age universe, in reference to arcelonious' post.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[Iosev]

LobselVith8 wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Morrigan disputes this kind of thinking in her conversation with Leliana. As she said: 


Leliana:
But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous 
things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.


It means faith isn't mandatory.

You continue to cite the conversation between Morrigan and Leliana, but you're only showing its text, where tone is also an important part of conversation. Specifically, Morrigan's tone can be interpreted as both playful and argumentative, whereas Leliana can be perceived as the more serious one in the debate. The conversations, as a whole, struck me more as Morrigan challenging Leliana's beliefs, and not so much a confiding of her own true beliefs.

I just do not think that those conversations are unequivocal evidence that Morrigan is an atheist.

I cited it to show that magic doesn't automatically mean gods exist.

And?  Where did I try to propose the idea that gods exist because of magic in fantasy?  The only thing I've said is that I'd rather not apply real-world ideas of atheism into a fantasy setting.  I don't even have a problem with characters expressing disbelief or uncertainty of the Maker, which I've stated already.  

Modifié par arcelonious, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

This is key. The conversation is not conclusive evidence that Morrigan is an atheist. The writer says Morrigan isn't, so she isn't. We merely have to reconcile the statements with an interpretation that does not contradict our absolute knowledge that Morrigan is not an atheist and that her statements there did not constitute atheism.

What's key is how you missed the point entirely. The quote was used in the last page to explain why faith isn't mandatory for the Dragon Age universe, in reference to arcelonious' post.

 Morrigan(contrary to your repeated statements that she is) is not atheist by word of god. Simple as that. You can argue all day long about how your interpretation of her statements show she's atheist, but she's not. Not sure why you're trying to pretend you didn't claim that Morrigan is atheist. You've got a previous quote in this very thread claiming Morrigan's atheism as fact. You actually used the word fact.

[Adrian68b]

I only jumped in order to help David a bit. Then I found myself in the middle of a heated debate. My conclusions were such as:

"In short, the only support DA3 needs in order to be comfortable for an atheist is:
(A) option for an avatar who is not a templar or priest
( neutral dialogue choices (not involving strong chantry beliefs).

That's all. There is no need for an atheistic movement, organization/group. No atheist in DA universe would try to impose an atheistic society (or be uncomfortable living in a religious society).
Also, there is no need for a specific ending (templars or mages prevailing)."

What do you think, it is enough for an atheist? I don't even need as much. Only to be able to play a moral character (not indiscriminate murder, execution, torturing).

[LobselVith8]

arcelonious wrote...

And?  Where did I try to propose the idea that gods can't exist without magic in fantasy?  The only thing I've said is that I'd rather not apply real-world ideas of atheism into a fantasy.  I don't even have a problem with characters expressing disbelief or uncertainty of the Maker, which I've stated already.  

It's not real world atheism to be atheist about gods in the Dragon Age universe. That's like saying we should prohibit characters being religiously Andrastian because it brings real life religion into the game.

[Fallstar]

Morrigan did not believe in a deity in DAO. Morrigan's tone during the "I have no primitive fear of the moon line..." was neither playful nor argumentative; it was scathing and suggested contempt for those who do believe in deities.

Are we going to start arguing over whether or not Oghren believes in gods now because most of what he says isn't serious? Hopefully not. Equally the fact that Morrigan lies to the PC and others over certain things isn't grounds to suggest she believes in deities.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[robertm2]

it should always be an option for you character to not believe in the maker.

[Vandicus]

DuskWarden wrote...

Morrigan did not believe in a deity in DAO. Morrigan's tone during the "I have no primitive fear of the moon line..." was neither playful nor argumentative; it was scathing and suggested contempt for those who do believe in deities.

Are we going to start arguing over whether or not Oghren believes in gods now because most of what he says isn't serious? Hopefully not. Equally the fact that Morrigan lies to the PC and others over certain things isn't grounds to suggest she believes in deities.

Word of god states she's not atheist. Should we conclude otherwise? Also simple absence of belief or worship of a deity does not necessarily constitute atheism.

[TEWR]

cindercatz wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she even expresses interest in what happens beyond the fade to some extent, and she's certainly very intent on something she discovered concerning the Black City

You're wrong, and thus corrected.

Either that, or I've never had her say anything of the sort on both accounts.

Vandicus wrote...

Word of god

Word of god doesn't mean much if you can't remember the details about characters.

cindercatz wrote...

Or an attempt to raise a sane god that would challenge the authority of a pre-existing power she accepts the existence of and rejects in principle? Seems like something she'd do.

No it doesn't.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's key is how you missed the point entirely. The quote was used in the last page to explain why faith isn't mandatory for the Dragon Age universe, in reference to arcelonious' post.

 Morrigan(contrary to your repeated statements that she is) is not atheist by word of god. Simple as that. You can argue all day long about how your interpretation of her statements show she's atheist, but she's not. Not sure why you're trying to pretend you didn't claim that Morrigan is atheist. You've got a previous quote in this very thread claiming Morrigan's atheism as fact. You actually used the word fact.

The quote was provided because it explained that magic doesn't automatically mean there's an intelligent design to the universe. Magic doesn't automatically mean the Maker or gods exist. I hope this rectifies your confusion.

[TEWR]

Also, you're misrepresenting the Cousland case. Cousland is never given the opportunity to state that he believes in no gods. He is merely able to doubt the existence of the Maker.

Oh really? My Cousland didn't believe in the Maker. He didn't doubt He existed, he actually said he didn't believe in the Maker.

He also said Andraste wasn't a real prophet and was just some woman, called the Disciples of Andraste lunatics (though, really, that's hardly something restricted to an atheist character), and said the following to Gheyna:

"You guys don't really believe in those gods do you?" while avoiding any option that would've made him a believer in either pantheon.

Further, he acknowledges what the Dwarves do because their "religion" is based on history and what surrounds them. He doesn't believe in the Stone as having some sort of power and life -- in fact, I recall a couple times he could be kinda irreverent towards some Dwarves about the notion -- but the Stone is indeed all around them, and their Ancestors did exist -- hence the term ancestors.

As for the Old Gods? They operate under that title because it's what most Thedosians refer to them as. They don't actually worship them anymore. And Damaeus Cousland believes in them as being historically real, as opposed to believing in them having any sort of cosmic powers. He grants them no religious significance, but believes they are very powerful dragons much like other scholars believe.

Unless you're going to try and tell me he really believes in the Avvar gods.

And what's next? The Qunari believe in gods now too?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, you're misrepresenting the Cousland case. Cousland is never given the opportunity to state that he believes in no gods. He is merely able to doubt the existence of the Maker.

Oh really? My Cousland didn't believe in the Maker. He didn't doubt He existed, he actually said he didn't believe in the Maker.

He also said Andraste wasn't a real prophet and was just some woman, called the Disciples of Andraste lunatics (though, really, that's hardly something restricted to an atheist character), and said the following to Gheyna:

"You guys don't really believe in those gods do you?" while avoiding any option that would've made him a believer.

Unless you're going to try and tell me he really believes in the Avvar gods.

Cousland is never given the opportunity to state that he believes in no gods. 

I don't recall the option to yell at the Archdemon "You're not real!". There are a number of completely rational explanations that explain why atheism in the modern sense is literally impossible(short of insanity) in the DA universe. 

In this case DG's statements are not at all contradictory to established lore and to Morrigan's beliefs(or lack thereof). The insistence that his statements are contradictory if the terminology for deities is restricted to the Abrahamic sort or restricted in such a way as to be different from the normal fantasy setting requirements for godhood is silly.

[TEWR]

The Archdemon isn't a god to the people of Thedas. To the Darkspawn it is, but Cousland isn't a Darkspawn now isn't he?

The people of Thedas call the Old Gods "Old Gods" because [b]that's what they're commonly known by[b].

Belief in a dragon does not constitute said dragon being a god.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Archdemon isn't a god to the people of Thedas. To the Darkspawn it is, but Cousland isn't a Darkspawn now isn't he?

The people of Thedas call the Old Gods "Old Gods" because [b]that's what they're commonly known by[b].

Belief in a dragon does not constitute said dragon being a god.

The writer(probably) views the Old Gods as gods, because by the average fantasy standard, from LoTR, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance, they are gods. Since their existence is a known fact, it is not incorrect to make a statement that true atheism is not possible in the DA universe.

For a creature to constitute a god, it need not be worshipped or revered. It may even be loathed and fought against. Power level is typically the measure of what constitutes a god in fantasy settings.

This point of contention with the author is based on maintaining a particular interpretation of what he said. I choose to pursue the more common interpretation of his statements.

[Fallstar]

Vandicus wrote...
Word of god states she's not atheist.

The irony. Also, Mr. Gaider has not stated that she's not atheist. He has said that our interpretations of her are wrong, but that isn't an absolute, Sten-esque NO on the subject.

What DG says now doesn't change what happened in Origins. During Origins, Morrigan was an atheist. They might change something about her character post Origins, but during Origins she was an atheist.

Should we conclude otherwise? Also simple absence of belief or worship of a deity does not necessarily constitute atheism.

If there is no belief in a deity (an absence of belief) that is not atheism. If there is no belief in any deity, whether it has been thought of yet or not, that is atheism.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh really? My Cousland didn't believe in the Maker. He didn't doubt He existed, he actually said he didn't believe in the Maker.

He also said Andraste wasn't a real prophet and was just some woman, called the Disciples of Andraste lunatics (though, really, that's hardly something restricted to an atheist character), and said the following to Gheyna:

"You guys don't really believe in those gods do you?" while avoiding any option that would've made him a believer.

Unless you're going to try and tell me he really believes in the Avvar gods.

Cousland is never given the opportunity to state that he believes in no gods. 

I don't recall the option to yell at the Archdemon "You're not real!". There are a number of completely rational explanations that explain why atheism in the modern sense is literally impossible(short of insanity) in the DA universe. 

In this case DG's statements are not at all contradictory to established lore and to Morrigan's beliefs(or lack thereof). The insistence that his statements are contradictory if the terminology for deities is restricted to the Abrahamic sort or restricted in such a way as to be different from the normal fantasy setting requirements for godhood is silly.

Atheists don't tend to say "there are no gods," they say there is "no God." They don't dismiss every God from every religion, so you're being disingenuous here. The Cousland Warden saying there is no Maker makes sense when he has only been exposed to the Andrastian Chantry at that point. He doesn't believe; he doesn't have to satisfy your litmus test.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh really? My Cousland didn't believe in the Maker. He didn't doubt He existed, he actually said he didn't believe in the Maker.

He also said Andraste wasn't a real prophet and was just some woman, called the Disciples of Andraste lunatics (though, really, that's hardly something restricted to an atheist character), and said the following to Gheyna:

"You guys don't really believe in those gods do you?" while avoiding any option that would've made him a believer.

Unless you're going to try and tell me he really believes in the Avvar gods.

Cousland is never given the opportunity to state that he believes in no gods. 

I don't recall the option to yell at the Archdemon "You're not real!". There are a number of completely rational explanations that explain why atheism in the modern sense is literally impossible(short of insanity) in the DA universe. 

In this case DG's statements are not at all contradictory to established lore and to Morrigan's beliefs(or lack thereof). The insistence that his statements are contradictory if the terminology for deities is restricted to the Abrahamic sort or restricted in such a way as to be different from the normal fantasy setting requirements for godhood is silly.

Atheists don't tend to say "there are no gods," they say there is "no God." They don't dismiss every God from every religion, so you're being disingenuous here. The Cousland Warden saying there is no Maker makes sense when he has only been exposed to the Andrastian Chantry at that point. He doesn't believe; he doesn't have to satisfy your litmus test.

People of non-Christian religions tend to say "there is no God" as well. Funny how that works. In other words such statements are not absolute proof of atheism, they are merely one of a number of possible indicators.