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Possibilities of an atheist PC: the thread


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#876
Vandicus

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IanPolaris wrote...

This is what David Gaidar wrote yesterday.


David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.


I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.


At no point does he deny that Morrigan is an atheist, but he did it in such a way that some of you failed to notice that.

-Polaris


The interpretation of Lobsel here is that Morrigan is an atheist. The interpretation is not quite correct according to the author. She's not an atheist, but may have views or make statements that can be interpreted as atheism(agnosticism, very commonly mistaken for one another). 

To me this says, Morrigan isn't exactly an atheist as you(Lobsel is the you DG talks to in this case) presuppose.

What do you interpret this as?

#877
IanPolaris

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Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

This is what David Gaidar wrote yesterday.


David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.


I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.


At no point does he deny that Morrigan is an atheist, but he did it in such a way that some of you failed to notice that.

-Polaris


The interpretation of Lobsel here is that Morrigan is an atheist. The interpretation is not quite correct according to the author. She's not an atheist, but may have views or make statements that can be interpreted as atheism(agnosticism, very commonly mistaken for one another). 

To me this says, Morrigan isn't exactly an atheist as you(Lobsel is the you DG talks to in this case) presuppose.

What do you interpret this as?


Did DG ever explicitly say that Morrigan was not an atheist?

Thank you.  That's what I thought. I think we are done here.

-Polaris

#878
NKKKK

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IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

This is what David Gaidar wrote yesterday.


David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.


I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.


At no point does he deny that Morrigan is an atheist, but he did it in such a way that some of you failed to notice that.

-Polaris


The interpretation of Lobsel here is that Morrigan is an atheist. The interpretation is not quite correct according to the author. She's not an atheist, but may have views or make statements that can be interpreted as atheism(agnosticism, very commonly mistaken for one another). 

To me this says, Morrigan isn't exactly an atheist as you(Lobsel is the you DG talks to in this case) presuppose.

What do you interpret this as?


Did DG ever explicitly say that Morrigan was not an atheist?

Thank you.  That's what I thought. I think we are done here.

-Polaris


Did DG ever explicitly and with absolute power say that Morrigan wasn't perhaps an atheist?

Thank you boys and girls.

-NKKKK-

#879
Vandicus

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IanPolaris wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

This is what David Gaidar wrote yesterday.


David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't believe in a higher power, so I don't see the point to this discussion. Morrigan is providing her view to Leliana, and making it clear she worships neither the Maker nor a higher power, and explains her reasons for her view. If Morrigan makes her views explicitly clear, I don't see why we are debating Morrigan's views in the first place.


I'd be careful about taking your interpretation of Morrigan's statements as pure facts-- but you seem to do that with everything else, so I guess there's no reason for you to stop here. Even so, I'll just say that your interpretation is not quite correct and leave it at that.


At no point does he deny that Morrigan is an atheist, but he did it in such a way that some of you failed to notice that.

-Polaris


The interpretation of Lobsel here is that Morrigan is an atheist. The interpretation is not quite correct according to the author. She's not an atheist, but may have views or make statements that can be interpreted as atheism(agnosticism, very commonly mistaken for one another). 

To me this says, Morrigan isn't exactly an atheist as you(Lobsel is the you DG talks to in this case) presuppose.

What do you interpret this as?


Did DG ever explicitly say that Morrigan was not an atheist?

Thank you.  That's what I thought. I think we are done here.

-Polaris


Did Morrigan ever explicitly say she was an atheist?

Than you. That's what I thought. I think we are done here.

:innocent:

What was that argument you used earlier, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Morrigan's statements on the other hand have multiple interpretations. YOU can't think of an even remotely rational interpretation for DGs statement besides "Morrigan isn't atheist."

#880
IanPolaris

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The point you two are missing is clear: Read DG's quote again which I so helpfully provided. He does NOT say what Morrigan's beliefs are one way or the other. Thus you CAN NOT use "WOG" to declare that Morrigan is not an atheist. WoG doesn't support you as I just proved.

Thus we have to go by what Morrigan says and acts, and she clearly acts and talks like an atheist.

-Polaris

#881
henkez3

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David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.


I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.  Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks.


I on the other hand absolutely hope I can play an inquisitor that is an andrastian fanatic, dishing out physical and verbal punishment to any heretic and blasphemer out there. Pretty please can I have that option? :lol:

#882
Iosev

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I take Gaider's comment to mean that Morrigan's conversation with Leliana isn't an unequivocal source to construct her personal worldview.

For example, let's say I'm on the fence on the issue of abortion. Now, imagine that I have a friend who is pro-choice. Despite not being pro-life, I could take the pro-life stance, and use pro-life arguments, simply to challenge her stance during a debate. Just look at any forum, and you'll see people take stances on subjects that they may not really believe themselves, but they'll do it to argue.

Similarly, part of Morrigan's dialogue with Leliana is her challenging Leliana's faith in the Maker. Just because she uses arguments that a contemporary atheist might use to argue their position, doesn't necessarily mean that is her true position on that subject. Her true position, I imagine, was intentionally left equivocal.

#883
Adrian68b

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"I'll say this much: when the original thread was up, I asked the rest of the team what they remembered of the original game, and we all agreed that "atheism" was not something we'd ever supported as a viewpoint for the PC. And by supported, I mean something that-- whenever the topic arose-- we would make sure we included it as an option. Anything we consider "supported" is something we would make sure to maintain consistently throughout the game... that's a design term we take seriously.

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up. Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now.

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really. There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting. Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

And that's as far as I'll go on that topic. Thanks."

If this entire debate is only about this statement by David, things are clear. It there are other posts by him it is another story.

I could completely understand David position. DA is a fictional world similar to late 13 / early 14 century Europe (my guess). That means institutions, culture, technology related to late 13 century Europe. There is nothing in Thedas to make possible a completely secular, non-religious society. Such a society implies:

(1) Religion is abolished or has no political power
(2) Because of (1) Nobility has no real power, it is just an empty title. Kings are just symbolic (ex. England). So there is some sort elected government, or something similar - power is not hereditary.
(3)The bulk of the population is educated (mass education) and able to be involved in political / administrative decisions.
(4) There is a strong bulk of factual knowledge about the world and religious statements, making possible a general non-believer attitude.

And, of course (5) There are no real gods in Thedas, who will show themselved in DA3.

What David is saying is only that the DA universe is not at all prepared for conditions 1-4. (Condition 5 concerns only the future story). It would be utterly unrealistic to change DA3 toward such an end. In order to be coherent, DA story could be only similar to religious wars. So, no major challenge against any form of religion, kings, institutions, culture.
But David doesn't exclude individuals having atheistic viewpoints, because in such a case there is no real impact storywise. He thinks such kind of statements or behaviors realistic and:
"such an option seemed appropriate".

#884
LobselVith8

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Gaider isn't infallible. He was wrong a number of times, including this thread:

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.


What I find puzzling is how Gaider questions why some fans feel that Hawke was "forced" into being a believer when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel (who he knows believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him as "Night Terrors" concludes; it doesn't give me hope for the new protagonist when the writer is oblivious to reality; there isn't the same range of choice with Hawke as their was with The Warden, which is the problem.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:22 .


#885
Sharn01

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Just, wow, this thread is out of hand, I personally would have closed it if it where up to me.

While I find it annoying that words are often put in my characters mouth that force her to support a religion, I don't see how that is any worse then anything else my character is forced to think or feel that I don't agree with.

The argument should be to give us more control over our characters opinions and beliefs in general, and we should leave the anger and animosity out of the conversations.

#886
Vandicus

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IanPolaris wrote...

The point you two are missing is clear: Read DG's quote again which I so helpfully provided. He does NOT say what Morrigan's beliefs are one way or the other. Thus you CAN NOT use "WOG" to declare that Morrigan is not an atheist. WoG doesn't support you as I just proved.

Thus we have to go by what Morrigan says and acts, and she clearly acts and talks like an atheist.

-Polaris


While your kamikize logic tactic is amusing, his statement is CLEAR. Morrigan's statements are not clear. I have presented one viable interpretation, and another possible interpretation is she is screwing with Leliana.

You did give me a good laugh there. Attack the shared premise to torpedo argumentation of both yourself and opponent. 

You've basically gone into headcanon/shipping territory. Can't debate with a person when they deny WoG says what it says. I challenged you to try and provide a rational interpretation of DG's statement there that doesn't end with Morrigan isn't an atheist. You couldn't so you just ignored it. Well I'm off then, no one left to debate hereabouts.

#887
LobselVith8

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arcelonious wrote...

I take Gaider's comment to mean that Morrigan's conversation with Leliana isn't an unequivocal source to construct her personal worldview.

For example, let's say I'm on the fence on the issue of abortion. Now, imagine that I have a friend who is pro-choice. Despite not being pro-life, I could take the pro-life stance, and use pro-life arguments, simply to challenge her stance during a debate. Just look at any forum, and you'll see people take stances on subjects that they may not really believe themselves, but they'll do it to argue.

Similarly, part of Morrigan's dialogue with Leliana is her challenging Leliana's faith in the Maker. Just because she uses arguments that a contemporary atheist might use to argue their position, doesn't necessarily mean that is her true position on that subject. Her true position, I imagine, was intentionally left equivocal.


If Gaider admits to not remembering the atheist dialogue in Origins, it calls into question how accurate he is:

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO


Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin


Followed by:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin


If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.



#888
The dead fish

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arcelonious wrote...

I take Gaider's comment to mean that Morrigan's conversation with Leliana isn't an unequivocal source to construct her personal worldview.

For example, let's say I'm on the fence on the issue of abortion. Now, imagine that I have a friend who is pro-choice. Despite not being pro-life, I could take the pro-life stance, and use pro-life arguments, simply to challenge her stance during a debate. Just look at any forum, and you'll see people take stances on subjects that they may not really believe themselves, but they'll do it to argue.

Similarly, part of Morrigan's dialogue with Leliana is her challenging Leliana's faith in the Maker. Just because she uses arguments that a contemporary atheist might use to argue their position, doesn't necessarily mean that is her true position on that subject. Her true position, I imagine, was intentionally left equivocal.

This is exactly what I thought. For me, Morrigan was more challenging Leliana's faith, annoyed by her blind eyes for something she doesn't believe at all, the maker and the andrastian's faith, that crap, and also annoyed by her repetitive questions. But it wasn't really " I don't believe in anything. "

Modifié par Sylvianus, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:30 .


#889
Ranadiel Marius

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DuskWarden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
The average modern fantasy setting does not have the prerequisite of creation/creators in order to be gods. Its also rare for the gods to be invincible, and common place for them to be struck down by mortals or other gods. I make the assumption here that DG has the same line of thought as most fantasy authors.

You're using the prerequisites of an absolute god.


Those are the attributes which to me define the difference between a god and a powerful entity. In my opinion, calling something a god just because it's reached a certain power threshold isn't a good idea. Barack Obama and several other world leaders possess enough nuclear warheads to annihilate the vast majority of life. Should they be called gods? Equally, many scientists can do wonderful things to allow the creation of life where it would not naturally be possible. Should they be called gods? Of course they shouldn't. They're just human beings like you and me.

My point is that a powerful being shouldn't get an extra point of mana and suddenly ascend to godhood. True immortality and not having been created by another event/being are defining characteristics of godhood to me.



.....So the only "god" in Greek mythology is Chaos then? Since all the primordial gods were born of him and then the titans were born of the primordial gods and the Olympians were born of the titans. So Zeus, Hera, Hades, etc are not gods. Let's see here, in Norse Mythology under your definition there would be no gods since pretty much everyone dies come Ragnarok. In Shinto Izanami dies and pretty much every other major diety is a child of Izanagi and Izanami or one of their children, and actually a quick wikipedia search shows that Izanagi and Izanami are both children of two other dieties(not sure on what their fates are).

I could go on, but I think the point is made. Your definition of god doesn't really work with real world mythology or religions other than the Abrahamic religions. 

#890
TJPags

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arcelonious wrote...

I take Gaider's comment to mean that Morrigan's conversation with Leliana isn't an unequivocal source to construct her personal worldview.

For example, let's say I'm on the fence on the issue of abortion. Now, imagine that I have a friend who is pro-choice. Despite not being pro-life, I could take the pro-life stance, and use pro-life arguments, simply to challenge her stance during a debate. Just look at any forum, and you'll see people take stances on subjects that they may not really believe themselves, but they'll do it to argue.

Similarly, part of Morrigan's dialogue with Leliana is her challenging Leliana's faith in the Maker. Just because she uses arguments that a contemporary atheist might use to argue their position, doesn't necessarily mean that is her true position on that subject. Her true position, I imagine, was intentionally left equivocal.



This is probably true.  However, we have no other point where Morrigan expresses her "true" belief, do we? (If we do, I'll be fine with a correction).  So what do we have to go on other than what she said in that instance?  Not much of anything.

#891
IanPolaris

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Vandicus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The point you two are missing is clear: Read DG's quote again which I so helpfully provided. He does NOT say what Morrigan's beliefs are one way or the other. Thus you CAN NOT use "WOG" to declare that Morrigan is not an atheist. WoG doesn't support you as I just proved.

Thus we have to go by what Morrigan says and acts, and she clearly acts and talks like an atheist.

-Polaris


While your kamikize logic tactic is amusing, his statement is CLEAR. Morrigan's statements are not clear. I have presented one viable interpretation, and another possible interpretation is she is screwing with Leliana.

You did give me a good laugh there. Attack the shared premise to torpedo argumentation of both yourself and opponent. 

You've basically gone into headcanon/shipping territory. Can't debate with a person when they deny WoG says what it says. I challenged you to try and provide a rational interpretation of DG's statement there that doesn't end with Morrigan isn't an atheist. You couldn't so you just ignored it. Well I'm off then, no one left to debate hereabouts.


There is nothing clear about David's statement.  In fact it seems deliberately obscure.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The point is this:  You claimed that WoG stated that Morrigan was not an atheist.  Full stop.  No, WoG did not say that, so you can't use that as your argument.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:55 .


#892
cindercatz

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He did not say she was not, full stop. He does appear (to my understanding) to be saying that the interpretation of her beliefs as entirely atheistic is at least incomplete, if not inaccurate.

The fact remains that she challenges everybody about everything, she has 'special knowledge', and we really don't know very much about whatever and however much it is that she does know. I see her as wielding a skeptic's knife in how she approaches the dogma of all religions, yes, but all suppositions in general. She communicates a general sense, as well, that she does what she does out of some greater purpose. She acts not out of her own wants and desires, but largely in spite of them. That should tell us there's more to her inner character, and we can't competently ascribe any bias of worldview on our part onto her. Not yet, anyway.

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .


#893
Adrian68b

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My point was about DA3 ending. Because of points 1-4 lacking, We should expect as reasonable only endings involving belief systems, nothing atheistic. The qunari are believers. They are not believing in a God, but a philosophy - kind of militant budhism. So, it is possible to have the Chantry as winner, or a new religion, or some sort of belief (in magic, for instance, Flemeth being the new power) or some Templar despotism. But nothing as remote as a secular, non-believer society.

#894
Steppenwolf

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David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Are you guys still trying to tell David Gaider that he doesn't know his own characters and universe as well as you do? How many months/years has this been going on?


You can pretty much time the usefulness of any discussion of faith in Dragon Age to the point where certain posters show up and make the thread all about their personal interpretations and everyone else-- including me-- is simply wrong.


Well, you did say earlier in the thread that we remember details of the games better than you do...

#895
DarkKnightHolmes

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Well this thread went up fast.

I guess anything with religion, atheism or s/s romance will.

#896
David Gaider

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Yeah, this thread has gotten out of hand-- predictably. It also doesn't have much to do with DA3 any longer. Should it appear again, I'd caution those people who like to show up and commandeer the entire thread to hammer them with their agenda. Take it elsewhere, folks-- there's a long thread on exactly this topic in the DA2 forum, with exactly the same arguments.