895 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

David Gaider wrote...

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

With all due respect, is it absolutely necessary to portray people who like some wiggle room in their characters' ideology as hyperactive idiots with poor reading comprehension? I understand how frustrating it must be to deal with players who stubbornly insist on a high level of character customization, but the caplocks thing is a bit hyperbolic.

People are here because they are passionate about *your* video game. They may not be passionate about the precise things you want them to be passionate about, but if you squash their enthusiasm, they will leave.

Thanks for listening!

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Believing what the members of the Chantry are doing is wrong and acting
on that belief is quite different from calling the Andrastrian theology
into question, no?  Why must the two coincide?

Some people would find it far more interesting, believable and immersive to do so. Including myself.

The person I was responding to stated them as if they were the same thing and that they could not act against the Chantry without tearing down the beliefs of most of Thedas' population.  You may prefer it that way.  I was just saying that being able to express an atheistic viewpoint is not necessary for opposing the chantry.

True. Though I admit... if I can't be an atheist, being allowed to follow the Creators or Old Gods would be worth it.

Yes, though really my point was that even an Andrastrian can oppose the Chantry.

[Xilizhra]

Why? Creators, again, minor impact on character decisions. I've yet to see a way in which the lack of Andrastian belief adds to a character unless they themselves are religiously fanatical(or fanatically anti-religious).

Indeed. It's a minor issue, which is why it'd be easy to implement.

Old Gods on the other hand. That's a pretty abhorent religion. Blood magic and human sacrifice. smilie

Why would you want Bioware to make a game with a protagonist who worships the Old Gods? Seems like a pretty messed up option. Not a huge fan personally of the option to make one of the "disappearing heroes" a complete monster.

We already had that option with siding with the templars in DA2, along with a few other things like selling Feynriel's soul and rivalmancing Merrill. Anyway, the Old Gods were worshiped by the whole of Tevinter back in the day, and I'm quite sure not everyone was performing their own sacrifices (and I suspect the vast majority of human sacrifice in Tevinter was secular anyway). Just have a civilian version. If nothing else, it'd be a chance to flesh out what each Old God contributed.

[wsandista]

Lord Aesir wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Come now, we all know that they are in many ways analogous.  It has always been implied that the vast majority of Thedas' population are Andrastrian to varying degrees of devotion.

Was there ever a group of individuals who could throw fireballs around in Medieval Europe?

[Vandicus]

wsandista wrote...

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Disregarding the debate between you two, the Dragon Age world is heavily modeled after historical locations, people, culture, and events. We aren't allowed to discuss all of these and what they are analogies too(results in threadlocks and such), but some that the developers are willing to say are that Orlais is France, Kirkland is Scotland, and Fereldan is England. Now, given the medieval/fantasy setting and certain events/organizations/cultures(which we aren't really allowed to discuss in detail), we can see that Thedas is basically modeled after the Medieval era.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

wsandista wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Come now, we all know that they are in many ways analogous.  It has always been implied that the vast majority of Thedas' population are Andrastrian to varying degrees of devotion.

Was there ever a group of individuals who could throw fireballs around in Medieval Europe?

Maybe....

[Cultist]

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

Good to hear that.

Spicen wrote...
About the dwarves and elves- they have some religious believes right?

They do.

M25105 wrote...

I'm on the religious war wagon, as long as
the player character gets to shout stuff like "Burn heretic" or "By
fire be purged" "For the Maker" "Die in the Maker's name" "I am the
Maker's wrath".

Certainly sounds cooler than "Die in the non-existentant deity I don't believe in"

And why polarize it, annoying and angering one side? Origins had neutral war-cries and battle banter. Yet all those "give the Maker my regards" and other from DA2 arise constantly each time thread about religion in DA setting arise. It is ok, becuase Hawke is not your, but fixed character, but why antagonize one part of audience when it could be avoided with no harm to another part?

[wsandista]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Come now, we all know that they are in many ways analogous.  It has always been implied that the vast majority of Thedas' population are Andrastrian to varying degrees of devotion.

Was there ever a group of individuals who could throw fireballs around in Medieval Europe?

Maybe....

Did this group frequently get possessed by spirits and turn into rampaging monsters?

[wsandista]

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Disregarding the debate between you two, the Dragon Age world is heavily modeled after historical locations, people, culture, and events. We aren't allowed to discuss all of these and what they are analogies too(results in threadlocks and such), but some that the developers are willing to say are that Orlais is France, Kirkland is Scotland, and Fereldan is England. Now, given the medieval/fantasy setting and certain events/organizations/cultures(which we aren't really allowed to discuss in detail), we can see that Thedas is basically modeled after the Medieval era.

Modeled  =/= exact replica.

Modifié par wsandista, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Wissenschaft]

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

No, what Gaider is trying to say is that bioware is not going to design a whole path in the game that focuses on obliterating the Chantry which is what a lor of people seem to have sick dreams about. Its one thing to dispise the actions of the chantry and another to wishing to murderer the "cult".   There will likely be ways to go against the chantry wishes in the game though. Such as completing quest in a way thats contray to what the Chantry/Templars want. But if you want to go around burning Chanries down and kill every presstiess you see (which sure seems to be a popular wish on this forum), your very likely to be disappointed.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Wissenschaft wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

No, what Gaider is trying to say is that bioware is not going to design a whole path in the game that focuses on obliterating the Chantry which is what a of people seem to have sick dreams about. There will likely be ways to go against the chantry wishes in the game though. Such as completing quest in a way thats contray to what the Chantry/Templars want.

Allowing some of the Chantry to survive, fine. But I want none of the Templar Order to survive.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

We already had that option with siding with the templars in DA2, along with a few other things like selling Feynriel's soul and rivalmancing Merrill. Anyway, the Old Gods were worshiped by the whole of Tevinter back in the day, and I'm quite sure not everyone was performing their own sacrifices (and I suspect the vast majority of human sacrifice in Tevinter was secular anyway). Just have a civilian version. If nothing else, it'd be a chance to flesh out what each Old God contributed.

The setting no longer supports "civilian" type worship of the Old Gods. If this were ancient Tevinter this would be a very logical belief system(society derived religion). In modern Thedas all that remains of Old Gods worship are the cults(which I assumed you had been referring to). 

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

wsandista wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Come now, we all know that they are in many ways analogous.  It has always been implied that the vast majority of Thedas' population are Andrastrian to varying degrees of devotion.

Was there ever a group of individuals who could throw fireballs around in Medieval Europe?

Maybe....

Did this group frequently get possessed by spirits and turn into rampaging monsters?

Who knows? Someone will have to discover a time machine and find out.

[Cultist]

Vandicus wrote...
Old Gods on the other hand. That's a pretty abhorent religion. Blood magic and human sacrifice. 

Why would you want Bioware to make a game with a protagonist who worships the Old Gods? Seems like a pretty messed up option. Not a huge fan personally of the option to make one of the "disappearing heroes" a complete monster.

Power. Immortality. Knowledge.
We already have Reavers, Assassing, Blood Mages as a specialization. It's a part of RPG - to have both "good", "neutral" and "evil" characters. And different ways to play the game and make different decisions - some ruthless, mecriless and selfish, along with honorable, valiant and charitable. Characters believing in the Old Gods may be ridiculous, but we already had option to perform a ritual in their temples and get favors.

Modifié par Cultist, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Spicen]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Excuse me, i did not say anything to you, did i?

You are on a forum, that means your posts are a response to everyone who might read it. BTW, "I" is supposed to be capitalized.

And the constant use of the word trolling- do you really know what it means?

Yes.

I am expressing that most medival people were not atheists. Is there a problem with that? REALLY?

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Oh i get you mean the women part, dont you?

Let me make this very clear, I am married to an Aussie WOMAN. So you can pretty  much understand I have absolutely nothing against wome, nothing at all. If you, or anyone was insulted, i am extremely sorry for that.


I was only implying that people use religion as an excuse to torture women in the mid ages. Thus women had a growing hatred for religion. I did not want to offend anyone. Amen. i hope you understand what i said.

[Xilizhra]

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Why fanatical? The desire to revive the Old Gods in the belief that they make better stewards of society than the distant/nonexistent Maker seems like it could be quite reasonably come to.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white.

If you believe in gray there (I don't), then allow for more gray here.

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

Oh i get you mean the women part, dont you?

No.

[Vandicus]

wsandista wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Disregarding the debate between you two, the Dragon Age world is heavily modeled after historical locations, people, culture, and events. We aren't allowed to discuss all of these and what they are analogies too(results in threadlocks and such), but some that the developers are willing to say are that Orlais is France, Kirkland is Scotland, and Fereldan is England. Now, given the medieval/fantasy setting and certain events/organizations/cultures(which we aren't really allowed to discuss in detail), we can see that Thedas is basically modeled after the Medieval era.

Modeled  =/= exact replica.

Your point?

As far as I could tell you were using the argument "This is not Medieval Europe" to say "There's nothing establishing atheism as uncommon in Thedas".

A. its very similar to Medieval Europe
B. in the particular instance that you are debating, it IS similar to Medieval Europe, both by lore and developer statements. Atheism is borderline nonexistent in Thedas, end of story.

 

[Spicen]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
So in other words - you cannot act against Chantry or oppose them in upcoming Inqusitor game? Only minor expression of doubt is allowed but no further?

That is not what I just said. I'll not clarify it further, with regards to DA3.

No, what Gaider is trying to say is that bioware is not going to design a whole path in the game that focuses on obliterating the Chantry which is what a of people seem to have sick dreams about. There will likely be ways to go against the chantry wishes in the game though. Such as completing quest in a way thats contray to what the Chantry/Templars want.

Allowing some of the Chantry to survive, fine. But I want none of the Templar Order to survive.

Spicen approves: +100

Yep i really want to destroy the templar order, they were so bullish, goddamn them! Reminds me of my childhood days.

[wsandista]

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Disregarding the debate between you two, the Dragon Age world is heavily modeled after historical locations, people, culture, and events. We aren't allowed to discuss all of these and what they are analogies too(results in threadlocks and such), but some that the developers are willing to say are that Orlais is France, Kirkland is Scotland, and Fereldan is England. Now, given the medieval/fantasy setting and certain events/organizations/cultures(which we aren't really allowed to discuss in detail), we can see that Thedas is basically modeled after the Medieval era.

Modeled  =/= exact replica.

Your point?

As far as I could tell you were using the argument "This is not Medieval Europe" to say "There's nothing establishing atheism as uncommon in Thedas".

A. its very similar to Medieval Europe
B. in the particular instance that you are debating, it IS similar to Medieval Europe, both by lore and developer statements. Atheism is borderline nonexistent in Thedas, end of story.

 

Then what are blood mages? What is Morrigan?

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Why fanatical? The desire to revive the Old Gods in the belief that they make better stewards of society than the distant/nonexistent Maker seems like it could be quite reasonably come to.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white.

If you believe in gray there (I don't), then allow for more gray here.

I don't know how someone can come to the conclusion give the methods, behavior, history, and doctrine of the Old Gods that they would be better stewards of society without being a fanatic.

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.


Worshipping Cthulu is not gray. It is black. It is only gray when one does not know about Cthulu's true nature. The cults of the Old Gods are basically apocalypse worshippers. That cannot be roleplayed as a non-fanatic.

[Spicen]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Oh i get you mean the women part, dont you?

No.

Then you have no justification for hating me...............

Or was it because i wanted Leliana dead? Just wondering why you hate me saying that i do not support atheism. I did not do sth horrible to you did i?

[Maclimes]

Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

[Cultist]

Nyoka wrote...

No to a protagonist that goes on and on at chantry people saying "well then who made the Maker? Eh? Eh? lol"

Yes to a protagonist who is not forced by the game to be a faithful Andrastian. The kind of casual non believer Gaider described in the first page is perfect to me.

This. The option to say "I don't care" alone woul be great and remove most of the complaints.