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[Vandicus]

wsandista wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

How is Thedas Medieval Europe? Please show me where Jesus Christ or Christianity shows up in Thedas.

Disregarding the debate between you two, the Dragon Age world is heavily modeled after historical locations, people, culture, and events. We aren't allowed to discuss all of these and what they are analogies too(results in threadlocks and such), but some that the developers are willing to say are that Orlais is France, Kirkland is Scotland, and Fereldan is England. Now, given the medieval/fantasy setting and certain events/organizations/cultures(which we aren't really allowed to discuss in detail), we can see that Thedas is basically modeled after the Medieval era.

Modeled  =/= exact replica.

Your point?

As far as I could tell you were using the argument "This is not Medieval Europe" to say "There's nothing establishing atheism as uncommon in Thedas".

A. its very similar to Medieval Europe
B. in the particular instance that you are debating, it IS similar to Medieval Europe, both by lore and developer statements. Atheism is borderline nonexistent in Thedas, end of story.

 

Then what are blood mages? What is Morrigan?

Read my post again. I'm not interested in your debate. You made a silly statement in direct contradiction of the writers and lore. Atheism is borderline nonexistant in Thedas. Period. That is what the setting is. Like it or dislike it, acknowledge it.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Maclimes wrote...

Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

The LI threads?

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

Then you have no justification for hating me...............

Yes I do. You have horrible English skills.

Just wondering why you hate me saying that i do not support atheism. I did not do sth horrible to you did i?

The grammatical abortions that are your posts have burned my eyes.

[Xilizhra]

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.

It's the archdemons who are trying to kill everyone; that's after the Old Gods have been driven mad by the darkspawn taint. Morrigan apparently deemed it important to preserve Urthemiel's soul in an uncorrupt form, as did Flemeth.

[wsandista]

Vandicus wrote...

Read my post again. I'm not interested in your debate. You made a silly statement in direct contradiction of the writers and lore. Atheism is borderline nonexistant in Thedas. Period. That is what the setting is. Like it or dislike it, acknowledge it.

Then why did you respond? Usually when someone isn't interested in something they just ignore it.

Modifié par wsandista, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:14 .

[Spicen]

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Why fanatical? The desire to revive the Old Gods in the belief that they make better stewards of society than the distant/nonexistent Maker seems like it could be quite reasonably come to.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white.

If you believe in gray there (I don't), then allow for more gray here.

I don't know how someone can come to the conclusion give the methods, behavior, history, and doctrine of the Old Gods that they would be better stewards of society without being a fanatic.

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.


Worshipping Cthulu is not gray. It is black. It is only gray when one does not know about Cthulu's true nature. The cults of the Old Gods are basically apocalypse worshippers. That cannot be roleplayed as a non-fanatic.

About the worshipping of Old Gods: it can be justified(not by me) by the fact that they can offer riches, power,etc. It is kinda like real world, there is a certain cult that worships the devil. Or how about the daedra of Tamriel. Everything can be justified by the person who performs black arts. Atleast that is what experience tells me.

[addiction21]

Maclimes wrote...

Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

I would go with "what is roleplay" since that is something that can show up anywhere. THe religion/atheism one tends to stick to its own.

As for being an atheist (or whatever some people define it as) I can take or leave it.

[Spicen]

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Then you have no justification for hating me...............

Yes I do. You have horrible English skills.

Just wondering why you hate me saying that i do not support atheism. I did not do sth horrible to you did i?

The grammatical abortions that are your posts have burned my eyes.

That is not a very viable reason, no?

[David Gaider]

Maclimes wrote...
Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

Even reading the phrase "what is roleplay?" makes something vomit into the back of my throat. So I'd say that.

[Calians]

Skelter192 wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Thanks Mr. Gaider.

I really cant believe anybody is atheist. I guess our  monkey ancestors created the universe, right?

Makes about as much sense as God creating the universe.

Let's not start this crap, that or I do need to stop coming to BSN.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.

It's the archdemons who are trying to kill everyone; that's after the Old Gods have been driven mad by the darkspawn taint. Morrigan apparently deemed it important to preserve Urthemiel's soul in an uncorrupt form, as did Flemeth.

The option would require secret knowledge that the Old Gods are really good guys. Flemeth and Morrigan do not appear to worship the Old Gods, nor are their goals with the Old Gods soul necessarily good or evil. Their goal with it might very well be selfish. 

The established common knowledge in Thedas is that the Old Gods are evil. The worshippers of the Old Gods are apocalypse type worshippers. In order for a benign worship of Old Gods option to exist, the character needs to have super secret special knowledge about the Old Gods.

Any other situation is the protagonist worshipping someone who is TRYING TO KILL EVERYONE. Yes, its done in human history. Those people are what we call religious fanatics. The kind of people who would mutilate themselves, or offer themselves up as sacrifices. 

[Masha Potato]

Aveline-style agnosticism would be perfectly agreeable

[Maclimes]

David Gaider wrote...

Maclimes wrote...
Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

Even reading the phrase "what is roleplay?" makes something vomit into the back of my throat. So I'd say that.

Well said.

[Xilizhra]

The option would require secret knowledge that the Old Gods are really good guys. Flemeth and Morrigan do not appear to worship the Old Gods, nor are their goals with the Old Gods soul necessarily good or evil. Their goal with it might very well be selfish.

The established common knowledge in Thedas is that the Old Gods are evil. The worshippers of the Old Gods are apocalypse type worshippers. In order for a benign worship of Old Gods option to exist, the character needs to have super secret special knowledge about the Old Gods.

Um, are a couple of codex entries in Origins really that secret? It's a matter of historical record that, hey, the giant dragons underground weren't ravaging Tevinter until they started getting corrupted by the darkspawn.

But since the odds of this may be low, I reiterate my support to just have an atheist PC in DA3, and one who would support the weakening of the Chantry and obliteration of the templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[David Gaider]

Either the insults and aggressiveness in some of the posts here are toned down or bans will be handed out. I have the power-- I will use it.

[wsandista]

Spicen wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Then you have no justification for hating me...............

Yes I do. You have horrible English skills.

Just wondering why you hate me saying that i do not support atheism. I did not do sth horrible to you did i?

The grammatical abortions that are your posts have burned my eyes.

That is not a very viable reason, no?

To you perhaps.

Modifié par wsandista, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Calians]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Hey devs, what's worse: The religion/atheism argument threads, or the "what is roleplay" threads?

The LI threads?

Probably the LI threads. Where player ideas have gone wild.

Modifié par Calians, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

David Gaider wrote...

Either the insults and aggressiveness in some of the posts here are toned down or bans will be handed out. I have the power-- I will use it.

Unlike the Maker, it seems.

[Wulfram]

"We need to worship the Old Gods so they stop trying to kill us" isn't any crazier than "we need to worship the Maker so he stops making the Old Gods try to kill us"

[Vandicus]

Spicen wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Why fanatical? The desire to revive the Old Gods in the belief that they make better stewards of society than the distant/nonexistent Maker seems like it could be quite reasonably come to.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white.

If you believe in gray there (I don't), then allow for more gray here.

I don't know how someone can come to the conclusion give the methods, behavior, history, and doctrine of the Old Gods that they would be better stewards of society without being a fanatic.

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.


Worshipping Cthulu is not gray. It is black. It is only gray when one does not know about Cthulu's true nature. The cults of the Old Gods are basically apocalypse worshippers. That cannot be roleplayed as a non-fanatic.

About the worshipping of Old Gods: it can be justified(not by me) by the fact that they can offer riches, power,etc. It is kinda like real world, there is a certain cult that worships the devil. Or how about the daedra of Tamriel. Everything can be justified by the person who performs black arts. Atleast that is what experience tells me.

Problem with that is that the Old Gods don't appear to actually answer prayers. They haven't since the Black City event(by Corypheus's own words). It appears that whatever direct interaction they had with humanity prior to the Black City event is now entirely gone, as they solely attempt to kill everyone now. 

If they could offer riches and power, it would be a legitimate option. Working with demons is a legitimate option, as long as the demon makes some sort've reasonable offer. Working for someone whose sole goal is to destroy you and offers no benefits at all, is fanatical.

[Cultist]

Vandicus wrote...
Atheism is borderline nonexistant in Thedas. Period. That is what the setting is. Like it or dislike it, acknowledge it.

Then it's good  to know we are not roleplaying common average farmer with standartized stats, general responses and we know that only general behaviour is available for us.

[Spicen]

Masha Potato wrote...

Aveline-style agnosticism would be perfectly agreeable

Agreed. That was one of the few things that was well done in DA 2.

[Xilizhra]

Problem with that is that the Old Gods don't appear to actually answer prayers. They haven't since the Black City event(by Corypheus's own words). It appears that whatever direct interaction they had with humanity prior to the Black City event is now entirely gone, as they solely attempt to kill everyone now.

Dumat rather quickly returns Hawke's sacrifice in Legacy.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Spicen]

Vandicus wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The main character of the DA series can make some dark decisions, but being a fanatical cult worshipper of the Old Gods would dominate their personality to the extent that as a character they are unredeemable in any sense. In other words a complete monster.

Why fanatical? The desire to revive the Old Gods in the belief that they make better stewards of society than the distant/nonexistent Maker seems like it could be quite reasonably come to.

Siding with the Templars can be justified in DA2, and does not constitute being a complete monster. Many people on these forums chose such an option, and it is inappropriate to suggest their decision makes their characters evil and unredeemable people. The decision is meant to be gray, please do not act as though the case was black and white.

If you believe in gray there (I don't), then allow for more gray here.

I don't know how someone can come to the conclusion give the methods, behavior, history, and doctrine of the Old Gods that they would be better stewards of society without being a fanatic.

Really, what sane person determines that blood sacrifices to dragons WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL US ALL is a good idea? Again, makes sense in Ancient Tevinter when the Old Gods weren't TRYING TO KILL US ALL. In order to worship someone who is TRYING TO KILL YOU, and you know that they're trying to kill you, you basically need to be a fanatic.


Worshipping Cthulu is not gray. It is black. It is only gray when one does not know about Cthulu's true nature. The cults of the Old Gods are basically apocalypse worshippers. That cannot be roleplayed as a non-fanatic.

About the worshipping of Old Gods: it can be justified(not by me) by the fact that they can offer riches, power,etc. It is kinda like real world, there is a certain cult that worships the devil. Or how about the daedra of Tamriel. Everything can be justified by the person who performs black arts. Atleast that is what experience tells me.

Problem with that is that the Old Gods don't appear to actually answer prayers. They haven't since the Black City event(by Corypheus's own words). It appears that whatever direct interaction they had with humanity prior to the Black City event is now entirely gone, as they solely attempt to kill everyone now. 

If they could offer riches and power, it would be a legitimate option. Working with demons is a legitimate option, as long as the demon makes some sort've reasonable offer. Working for someone whose sole goal is to destroy you and offers no benefits at all, is fanatical.

You dont get it, i completely agree with you that worshipping Old Gods is a black and evil option. Im just saying that all evil men can justify evil actions.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seeing how Hawke being an Andrastian no matter what worked in DA2, without it being really bothersome to anyone, I'd say the best thing to do would be to have the Inquisitor follow in Hawke's footsteps as far as this particular matter is concerned.

Of course, it would be great if the Inquisitor shouts stuff like the earlier mentioned "I am the Maker's wrath" as well.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:26 .