895 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

]But what if they have good sensible reasons fot thier reluctance*EX: dangerous zealots like Anders free to roam unchecked even my mages have a problem with that*

We can deal with that on a situation-by-situation basis. But they aren't going to get to keep their Circles.

Although if any of them try to lay a finger on Anders specificially I'm blowing them straight to Hell.

The problem is how could you tell who's dangerous until it's too late?Mages unlike mundanes have built in weapons.

The thing is Anders has proven he's too dangerous to let  live so yeah my mages would be perfectly fine with a Templar dealing with him.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[labargegrrrl]

i think that the protag shouldn't have their actual religious beliefs even hinted at. let us hc that. it will be easy enough to just assume the protag is an andrastian through the cultural lore of the world. but if we lack any direct hints or overt statement of faith like we had with the Warden and Hawke, we don't have to assume the new gal/guy believes anything, or that s/he doesn't.

problem solved.

[addiction21]

Kingroxas wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah okay. I thought it was directed more at the OP than Xili being her usual extremist self.

Must just say: Awesome avatar. 

It changes. Last one I remember was some person chewing or at least what It looks like to me. Angrypants signature always takes me back to fonder days. Saturday mornings in front of the SciFi channel.

iSignIn wrote...
snip

No offense intended but I was sick of this two days ago.

[silentassassin264]

This is just rich. It is considered a small instance that every PC regardless of Origin gets to tell the priest at Ostagar that they don't believe in the maker (Which makes every character besides possibly a Dalish Elf an atheist). Dwarves are atheists by default. And of course the obvious one telling Elthina that the Chantry is just a scam in DA2.

And you wonder why I am so pessimistic.

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

This is just rich. It is considered a small instance that every PC regardless of Origin gets to tell the priest at Ostagar that they don't believe in the maker (Which makes every character besides possibly a Dalish Elf an atheist). Dwarves are atheists by default. And of course the obvious one telling Elthina that the Chantry is just a scam in DA2.

And you wonder why I am so pessimistic.

Dwarves are not atheists by default.  They don't believe in a deity or a pantheon like humans and elves, but they do have an ancestor worship based belief system..

[SeptimusMagistos]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The problem is how could you tell who's dangerous until it's too late?

Easy. Innocent until proven guilty. That's the standard we're going with and anyone who has a problem with it is getting a fireball to the face.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The thing is Anders has proven he's too dangerous to let  live so yeah my mages would be perfectly fine with a Templar dealing with him.

Well, that's your decision. My mage will try to recruit him into the leadership of the cause. I spent the whole of Dragon Age II trying to kick off this war, I'm not going to complain when Anders finally does it for me.

[Dave of Canada]

Don't play self-inserts.

Problem solved.

[Maclimes]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dwarves are not atheists by default.  They don't believe in a deity or a pantheon like humans and elves, but they do have an ancestor worship based belief system..

I think he's using the term "atheist" quite literally in this context. Dwarves and Qunari have a religion, but those religions are atheist. Because "atheist" means "no god". It doesn't mean "no religion".

It's not the current use of the term in modern times, but it is technically correct.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Don't play self-inserts.

Problem solved.

Playing as a protagonist who is an atheist to the Andrastian faith (as the Cousland Warden and the Surana Warden can be) isn't a self-insert.

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The problem is how could you tell who's dangerous until it's too late?

Easy. Innocent until proven guilty. That's the standard we're going with and anyone who has a problem with it is getting a fireball to the face.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The thing is Anders has proven he's too dangerous to let  live so yeah my mages would be perfectly fine with a Templar dealing with him.

Well, that's your decision. My mage will try to recruit him into the leadership of the cause. I spent the whole of Dragon Age II trying to kick off this war, I'm not going to complain when Anders finally does it for me.

Tell that to someone with a criminal history.

IDK but letting a murderous zealot who's willing to sacrifice his fellow mages for his cause run things doesn't exactly help your cause that mages are'nt inherently dangerous thus should be free.

[LobselVith8]

Andrastee wrote...

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas.

Link?

If you're curious to see the link, Andrastee, here it is (along with what was originally said):

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

It's odd to see Gaider question why some fans feel that Hawke was "forced" into being a believer when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him; there isn't the same range of choice with Hawke as their was with The Warden.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[The Night Haunter]

Think about real world medieval times (more or less the equivalent of the socio-political systems of DA). There were no atheist movements in that time, so it would definately be out of place for some large 'destroy all religions' movement in DA.

As for taking down the Chantry, I'm down with being able to restructure the Chantry (I.e. you kill corrupt leaders and take over, changing it for the better), however simply destroying it isnt an option. If Rome blew up the Catholic Church would still exist, the same with the Chantry, it can't be dismantled completely no matter how hard you try because there will always be people who believe in it.

[Maclimes]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Don't play self-inserts.

Problem solved.

Your avatar (and comment) sums up my feeling on this entire thread.

[The Night Haunter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas.

Link?

If you're curious to see the link, Andrastee, here it is (along with what was originally said):

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

It's odd to see Gaider say that Hawke was "forced" into being a believer when Hawke says Leandra is with the Maker and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him; there isn't the same range of choice with Hawke as their was with The Warden.

People in a time where religion has that kind of power (real world - medieval times) people dont espouse aitheism, else they get burned at the stake. and as for Hawke saying those things, you can interpret it as wishful thinking.

Aetheisim originated in the 16th century (realworld) so before then the idea hadn't even really occured to anyone. The closest they got was something approximating agnosticism (sp?). So Hawke saying his mom was at the Makers side is simply because there isn't an alternative that is either well thought out or believable.

[Ellestor]

David Gaider wrote...

The part where I get stuck, and am clearly quite poor at expressing the exact point where my support for this idea breaks down, is where "atheism" stops being "I doubt that the Maker actually exists" to being some kind of political view... as atheism often is in the modern world. More secularization than atheism, really.

Yeah, if that old ‘no such thing as atheism in Thedas’ didn't actually meant ‘everyone in Thedas is a theist’, it probably could've been worded differently.

David Gaider wrote...

There's a strong streak of anti-religious organization present here on the forums, and when the topic is broached it seemed to be done in the sense of "I should be allowed to go on a crusade against all religion", which is really the thing that I believe is out of place in our setting.

  I honestly haven't seen that in a big way. Seems to me like people just want to be able to not apparently accept theistic claims without evidence or to consider faith virtuous.

That said, I'm with you on what you've said previously about atheism being a hell of a lot less common in a medieval state of affairs, but I'd say some important differences here are that it's not apparently a death sentence to not believe and that people are apparently much better-educated and free to speak as they will. As long as that's so, I can't quite get my head around non-stifled non-belief being so rare that it's invisible.

I mean, it's the same reason we're able to encounter bisexuals and homosexuals with their heads and skin still attached.

David Gaider wrote...

Being able to occasionally express doubt, sure... but in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance.

I think people just don't want to necessarily play characters that will run with such a major assumption about the nature of the world on faith. It's very possible to play characters that, in every other way, need evidence in order to begin to accept some extraordinary claim. To ‘express doubt’ doesn't really cover it, as doubt describes something different from a lack of belief. You don't ‘doubt’ whether or not elves exist on Earth—you simply have no belief that they do (I presume).

Speaking of elves, let's draw a quick analogy to the myths of elven immortality among the Dalish. Has there been any evidence that elves were once immortal but ‘quickened’ by contact with humanity? Do the Dalish necessarily believe it? Do other elves? Is there some barrier of entry to atheism among humans that isn't present before... a-Quickeningism among elves?

David Gaider wrote...

The forums being what they are, they will automatically interpret that as in only the extreme opposite must then be the truth-- I'll never be able to express ANYTHING anti-religious and therefore must myself BE RELIGIOUS OMG!... which of course is simply not so, but I guess if you intend to freak out about it go ahead and get it out of your system.

I'm not much concerned about dialogue choices. They've been OK in this regard. It'd be nice to be able to take a stance against superstition at every turn, but even as a writer of little interactive fiction adventures, I understand how seriously that can multiply the workload.

I'm personally just really interested in where the setting is. Ever since that ‘no such thing as atheism in Thedas’ post, I've been scratching my head over a lot of what I thought I understood about the setting stretching back even before DA:O released. The ‘realistic’ (note: not historical) handling of gods and religion in Thedas was one of the many large benefits I felt it had over something like Toril, where I wonder how the denizens maintain even a hint of sanity.

Modifié par Ellestor, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Avejajed wrote...

I think it's interesting that people who dislike real world religion also do not like made-up video game religion.

I think it's disingenuous to say people hate the Andrastian Chantry because they hate real life religion. The issue (among most fans who dislike the Chantry of Andraste) is that some people have an issue with the Chantry of Andraste specifically, not with real life religion in general. People who find the actions of the Chantry repugnant when it comes to the plight of the elves, the treatment of the mages, or their view of non-Andrastians as "heathens" is why some of us view the Chantry with disdain.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

I think it's interesting that people who dislike real world religion also do not like made-up video game religion.

I think it's disingenious to say people hate the Andrastian Chantry because they hate real life religion. The issue (among most fans who dislike the Chantry of Andraste) is that some people have an issue with the Chantry of Andraste specifically, not with real life religion in general. People who find the actions of the Chantry repugnant when it comes to the plight of the elves, the treatment of the mages, or their view of non-Andrastians as "heathens" is why some of us view the Chantry with disdain.

Most people on these boards do seem to confirm what he said though and really I think that a fictional religion that MAY*depending on who you ask* unjustly oppress fictional races bothers one that much to the point where they start flamewars with a person of the opposite opinion I'd say it's time to find a new hobby.

[LobselVith8]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you're curious to see the link, Andrastee, here it is (along with what was originally said):

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

It's odd to see Gaider say that Hawke was "forced" into being a believer when Hawke says Leandra is with the Maker and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him; there isn't the same range of choice with Hawke as their was with The Warden.

People in a time where religion has that kind of power (real world - medieval times) people dont espouse aitheism, else they get burned at the stake. and as for Hawke saying those things, you can interpret it as wishful thinking.

It's not wishful thinking, it's another aspect of the protagonist that is outside my control. That wasn't the case for the Cousland Warden or the Surana Warden when it came to having religious views about the Maker or Andraste; both types of Wardens could make it clear that they didn't believe in the Maker; all Wardens could dismiss the belief that Andraste was a divine figure in conversation with Leliana (after the Urn of Sacred Ashes).

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Aetheisim originated in the 16th century (realworld) so before then the idea hadn't even really occured to anyone. The closest they got was something approximating agnosticism (sp?). So Hawke saying his mom was at the Makers side is simply because there isn't an alternative that is either well thought out or believable.

I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.

As Morrigan attests to (in dialogue with Leliana):

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

Furthermore, she clarifies her views:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.

The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

[Ellestor]

I don't play self-inserts, with two exceptions in a couple of non-BioWare games, but there are some things I can't enjoy roleplaying. I couldn't possibly enjoy having Zaalbar kill Mission in KotOR. I couldn't pass that point when trying to play to the dark ending of KotOR because I couldn't get into the head of a character who would do it.

I can play religious characters, especially in some settings. Thedas isn't one wherein I can grok it.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

To OP what exactly is your beef with religion?

Some people hate the Andrastian Chantry. It has to do with this specific fictional religious organization.

Personally, I went through Origins with an atheist Surana Warden, but I also went through Skyrim with a Sithis worshipping Dunmer assassin (who was Moon-Born), and a Tribunal mage (of the Volkihar clan). Simply because my desire is to avoid playing as a protagonist who worships a fictional religion I detest doesn't mean that I hate all fictional religions, or all real life religions; I simply don't see why my mage protagonists need to follow a religion that vilifies them. I don't see why my apostate Hawke was forced to be religiously atheist when my Surana Warden wasn't forced to follow the Andrastian faith.

[Last Vizard]

I'm an atheist in RL however thats because there is zero supernatural evidence found using scientific methods (if we did discover something it wouldn't be labled as supernatural either because we now know it occurs in nature) while in a fantasy setting with mages and demons I'd be agnostic. People hearing voices in their mind telling them to do things in the Dragon age universe would lead me to believe "demon" first instead of some "sphaghetti moster" that is just chilling in the fade watching the world burn...

Perhaps their "Maker" is evil?

[Shadow Fox]

Morrigan really isn't a good case to argue why the protagonist should be atheist out of the gate as she was raised by wolves and has little to no understanding of how civilised society works unlike the Warden who was brought up on religion.

[Izhalezan]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The point comes down to the fact that atheism exists in Thedas.

Shale was athiest too right?

Anyway, Just let our character be athiest or agnostic or devout Andrastian, balanced variety.

[The Night Haunter]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm not looking to get into a historical debate about real life atheism with you, but Morrigan makes it clear she is atheist, so the point is moot: atheism exists in Thedas.
*snip*

Morrigan was raised in the forest with no human contact by FLEMETH. So if your PC grew up under those same circumstances then this arguement might apply. Otherwise its like saying breathing normally will always give you enough air, but argueing this isn't the case since if you climb Mt. Everest you need to aclimitize. The original statement is functionally true for 99.999% of the population who never climb a mountain.

This said I wouldn't mind if there are some characters who have unique experiences that make them disbelieve the maker, but to have it be widespread would be out of character for the world. No single person can fight an organization like the Chantry by themselves, so even if your character is an aethist they wouldnt go around spouting it, since they;d be executed. (proof: qunari are executed)

All in all it is so rare for a person to be actively aethiest that it wouldnt make sense for the PC to be one.