141 réponses à ce sujet

[whateverman7]

i do, and very effectively i may add

[Cyonan]

Gamemako wrote...
*sigh*

Yeah, theorycrafting isn't perfect. But there's something you've neglected in a spectacular way: the ways in which theorycrafting fall short have predictable causes (generally built into the assumptions made in the theorycrafting, such as 100% accuracy) and easily-verifiable outcomes.

One cause would be bugs or inobvious mechanics, like the Typhoon. It should fire at 650RPM, no? Yet, the reality is that it fires at only 600RPM or 900RPM. This is a perturbation that is not borne out in initial calculations because it isn't immediately apparent that the function is nonstandard. I would imagine your WoW example falls into the same category: assumptions were made about the downtime between attacks that was not correct. Or perhaps an assumption was made that the player could accomplish a feat that is unreasonable. That would be equivalent to questioning assumptions about, say, reload-canceling or hitting 100% headshots. In some cases, like reload canceling, the deviation is very small and generally negligible -- less than or equal to 1 tenth of a second after practice. In other cases, like headshots, the deviation is obviously vast.

The main problem with theorycrafted numbers is not that they do not reflect ingame performance. They do so perfectly in the absence of bugs or player error. The problem is in failing to understand the actual meaning of the numbers and the assumptions that go into them. You can't snipe  a Phantom from across the map with a Piranha, but the DPS isn't going to tell you that because of the assumption of 100% accuracy. You can kill many opponents in one headshot with a Javelin, but that won't show up because of the assumption of no headshots. You can reasonably estimate weapon accuracy and headshot percentage, but they will vary according to player skill. That's why we typically don't bother and just estimate it.

So what's missing? Are you getting 100% headshots with the Typhoon and none with the Talon? Are you sniping with the Hurricane these days? What is the reason that you want to claim a deviation from theory here?

The reason is because it needed to be executed perfectly. Much like the Claymore's sustained DPS with reload cancelling not doing so quickly dropped off the damage output(Though to a much harsher extent).

You've already pointed out the flaws in theorycrafting. Due to that many flaws and the fact that numbers must be estimated, it is no longer the best tool to be used in balancing things.

Gamemako wrote... 

Incorrect; it did have the highest sustained DPS. It was the first weapon with over 800 sustained DPS including reload cancels. Nothing else could do that at all until the Harrier and Reegar showed up. The Reegar requires too much running up to opponents and charging the gun to be good for speed runs, and the Harrier has made its way into quite a few speedruns.

As pointed out the Claymore only theoretically broke 800 sustained DPS, but nobody could actually pull off perfect reloads. Either way once the Harrier showed up it didn't break any records. The fact that it was used means nothing. I've used the Wraith in speed runs.

Gamemako wrote... 

That adds nothing to sustained (since you can't reload and start with a charged round) and 16.67% to maximum burst DPS, though you're taking artistic liberty with the meaning of the stat at that point (it becomes meaningless when you can't apply it except in odd circumstances where you start with a fully-loaded, charged weapon). Not going to nearly catch you up against shields and barriers, of course.

Your first shot will(or should) always be charged with any weapons that are chargable.

Gamemako wrote... 
Derp, forgot to add the RC'd reload duration on my spreadsheet. Mah b.

905/1041 are the RC'd numbers compared to Talon's 1044/1146 against shields and 696/764 vs health/armor. Conclusion doesn't change: Talon for shields, Hurricane for health/armor.

The Hurricane wins by a larger margin on health/armour than the Talon does on shields/barriers, and the Hurricane is lighter.

Gamemako wrote... 

You clearly missed the point. Let's see if I can be more clear:

ZOMG, teh typhoon are more damage armor, i no now nevar gonna use taylon111!11eleven

It's not relevant, and I don't care.

I'm not talking about an isolated case here. The only thing in which the Talon can compete(provided you're in range) over the Javelin for a weapons user is the Prime or Banshee.

However if you look at DPS numbers, Wraith is middle of the pack for Ultra-Rares. The ones that it beats are:

Javelin(Can't really calculate burst for this one)
Sabre
Scorpion
Black Widow
Indra

It might even beat the N7 Typhoon.

Also if we're using just DPS numbers, then I could call the Carnifex the worst pistol in the game. Funny how it used to be the best pistol in the game, and not every pistol has been buffed.

[Imp of the Perverse]

I just gave it a try for the first time, put it on an asari adept. It's not bad as a caster's shotgun, though mine is lagging behind my other URs and is only at level 3. The low rof takes some getting used to, but it meshes well with my power cooldowns - it synced up with fire->warp->fire->reload->cancel with throw->fire->repeat.

If you score clean headshots it will kill most things on gold in one shot (whereas a claymore could do it with a body shot), and it's nice to be able to spend more time behind cover with squishier casters. If I level it up some more I'll be using it more often, at X it weighs the same as a piranha, and works a little better for headshotting at longer range. I think the dps is a bit low for platinum though, and reload canceling doesn't improve it much.

[darkpassenger2342]

i use the HELL out of it, its one of my top five favorite guns.

[DatFeel]

It's good, but I'd rather use the Claymore, Pirahna and MAYBE the GPS and Reegar over it, depending on the character.

The thing with the Wraith is, you actually have to aim.

Modifié par DatFeel, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[neteng101]

DatFeel wrote...

The thing with the Wraith is, you actually have to aim.

You have to aim the Claymore too though!

[IllusiveManJr]

I don't use it because I don't like it.

[Ashen One]

neteng101 wrote...

DatFeel wrote...

The thing with the Wraith is, you actually have to aim.

You have to aim the Claymore too though!

Not really. Just point the gun in the general direction of your enemy and hipfire.

And who cares if you miss, or said enemy miraculously survives, you're just a reload cancelled shot away from killing it.

[Dendio1]

amazing on human engineer. must have smart choke though

[oblivion2023]

I probably use the wraith more than any other weapon. Probably because my Wraith is 7 and my paladin is only 1, so I put it on classes where I want a high recharge and don't want close range damage like the piranha. Put a choke on it and try it with the justicar the krogan vanguard the shadow or of course a GI. It takes a few games to get accustomed to the firing mechanics compared to a piranha or claymore but once you do it is worth it.

[Cyanide483]

My wraith is the closest UR I have to X and I am thankful for this... if only because it will be removing itself from the genepool (i.e. shop RNG) and then I can be 100% happy whenever I see a grey item border in a PSP from now on

[AngryBobH]

The Wraith is a fine shotgun. Buff ROF a little and it would be exactly the shotgun I always wanted.

[blaze55555]

Fun fact:
Wraith and Claymore both have the same aiming reticle and general accuracy.
Wraith has 2 shots per clip while Claymore has 1.
Wraith and Claymore both shoot 8 projectiles per shot.
The Wraith does ~127 damage per projectile at Rank X (~102 @ Rank I), while the Claymore does ~206 damage per projectile at Rank X (~168 @ Rank I).

Doing the math, the Wraith Does >2000 damage per clip (not counting bonuses from w/e is using it), while the claymore does ~1600 (at rank X for both).

Here's the difference: Claymore does it in 8 projectiles, so against bosses and armor, where 1 shot from either gun won't be enough anyway, the Claymore is somewhat better, maybe. The Wraith, in contrast, does roughly the same damage, and does it in 2 shots. The wraith I (which I use constantly) can often enough be more than enough to kill regular troopers, when used right, so the Claymore is overkill. In CQC with 1+ enemy, the Wraith is more often a lot more vesatile.

Situation 1: 1 enemy. You miss. Claymore: reload/maybe die. Wraith: Shoot again. Get him? Good. Miss again? Well you deserve to die.
Situation 2: 2 enemies. You miss. Claymore: reload/likely dead. Wraith: Shoot again. At least one is gone. Miss again? Well you deserve to die.
Situation 3: 2 enemies. You Hit! Claymore: He's dead... now reload/maybe die - don't forget that other enemy! Wraith: Yay! at least 50%+ of the time, that enemy is dead. If you know how to use the gun right, the enemy should die 90%+ of the time, now for the other enemy: Shoot again, hopefully you can do it right. Now reload; if the enemy survived or you missed...

I think you get the idea. For crowds and smaller targets, the Wraith has many advantages (imo) and situational versatility over the claymore, where the claymore tends to retains an advantage over the Wraith vs. bosses. But with enough damage bonuses and armor weakening effects, the Wraith can actually surpass the Claymore.

Due to the firepower of the claymore, you have a bit more range as it takes less bullets/shot to get kills than the wraith. And afterthought.

it is really worth using. One of my most enjoyed build experiences I call KirraheGold; Salarian infiltrator with the Wraith; TC specced up to rank 4 for damage, ED specced for damage @ rank 4, Drain rank 5 and Armor Boost rank 6, and Proximity mine for Damage taken rank 5 (No rank 6), and so on. I color him a gold-theme. And I go to town... Try the wraith on some other classes sometime... it's pretty awesome. Even at rank I compared to a rank X claymore, it is still comparable.

[babymoon]

I don't use him that much, but I do put it on my Drell Vanguard.

[Brawling_fairies]

I use blade/shredder Wraith with melee Batsoldier and it's totally ok especially with berserker package. Very light so good bblades cooldown even without blade armor power recharge evo.
Damage is quite good if you headshot things, very fast reloadcancel if you want it.

[Boog_89]

This thread inspired me to give the wraith another go and I now find it wonderful on the human infiltrator. Massive attack bonus from cloak is great and the sticky grenades are godly when chucked into clustered groups or at your feet when a phantom is closing in on you. I found this build very usable on gold finishing top on my first attempt (not a huge achievement I know)
Cloak > Cryo Blast > Shoot the head = All regular troopers dead on gold in 1 hit. I was pleasantly surprised when it did centurions in 1 shot.

Here is the build
http://narida.pytalh...es/#40ORNJD]4@0[DIRO4N4@0@0

Used with armour piercing III, this is a great build for this operation.

[Cthulu_Cuddler]

Yup, use it quite often on a few of my engies actually, and I believe it's my secondary on my demolisher. Personally I like it and feel it's power is worth the trade off. To each his own

[darkpassenger2342]

i use the headshot mods i thought to be useless at one time on the wraith more than any other gun i have recently, thats for sure.

[Koenig888]

My Wraith X has never been used, except for decorating my manifest.    It might be more useful if the ROF for the second shot is increased.  As it is, either the Claymore or Talon would be a better choice.  (I don't like the Piranha.)

I note an earlier post about the BW and Paladin being terrible URs.  In the right hands, the BW is still good but can do with a buff.  Even a BW X in the hands on an SI cannot one-shot (body shot) a Guardian through the shield without gear/consumable.  On the other hand, the Paladin is perfect as it is, especially in the hands on an Asari with stasis.  With cranial and pistol III, it can two-shot a nemesis and three-shot a Phantom without breaking stasis.

[Stardusk]

Wraith is unworthy of being a UR, it should be better.

[Kirrahe Airlines CEO]

I use it on my destroyer, vorcha sentinel and kroguard.