173 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

Along with abominable dialogue wheel and dumbed down dialogue trees we got various conversation icons to indicate out tone, like Diplomatic, Agressive, Sarcastic etc. The problem with them is that they act like background laughter in TV sitcom, telling us "that was a joke". To clarify that "I will kill you and all your family" is agressive and "Let's talk this out" is diplomatic.

Conversations are dumbed down to the point where you may not even read the paraphrases, just go by colour as 90% of all dialogues never go beyond "Yes", "No" and "Investigate".Remove the icons, at least make people
read the lines. They are not mentally challenged imbeciles, who can't understand or figure the meaning of the phrase. make them analyze the dialogue they are in, even the primitive ones we got iin DA2.

Flirt Icon
Almost eveyone took heart icon as a romance initiator. And in any further dialogue with heart icon it was a no-brainer what option to choose. Aveline was the only instance where heart icon would not lead to romance, and Zevran
maybe. So players would not think or read the lines\\paraphrases - they already knew that choosing heart icon is the only right ontion as it will progress romance one step further. Now compare it with Origins or Baldurs Gate 2 - you have to read carefully and understand what lines to choose. You have to understand each character, because some liked it rough, some preferred direct approach, some delicate, and so on. You have to understand and predict how each character will react to your lines.
Viconia would not be one of the most interesting and captivating love interests in RPGs if along her long romance there would be indicators to hint players - "that anwser will progress romance". And let me remind you that her romance lasted for two games and each dialogue has 5-7 options on each step. And each time you should think what should you answer to another strange line of hers, born out of alien drow mind.
Dragon Age 2 - Gain aopproval by Charming\\Dimplomatic=>heart=>heart=>heart. the end. that contributed to the disappointment with DA2 characters as game prevented understanding the characters and forced player to chose from 3 options, with one "right", one "wrong" and one neutral, which in most cases were "wrong" as well.

As Devs said that dialogue wheel is here to stay, but can be transformed into something less harmful, take inspiration from Deus EX: HR. they still got tones but you must choose from different options of one tone and each option resulted in different outcomes.

Modifié par Cultist, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Emzamination]

This is beautiful cultist, I support it.

[Dhiro]

The icons are there to clarify the intent of the PC when using that line. For example, the Sarcastic Tree has a handful of paraphrases that sound in a specific way, but when you click them, you realize that they are... well, sarcastic.

And the hearts are there to prevent ninjamancing. There are other ways to continue a romance than simply spamming them, though you do need them to start one, I believe.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm inclined to agree. I didn't find the icons, as they were in DA2, helpful at all, and would rather not be told in advance how an NPC is going to respond to what my character might say.

Icons could conceivably be a good feature if they provide information about what is going to be said, but if they can't do that then I'd rather not have them.

[upsettingshorts]

Dhiro wrote...

The icons are there to clarify the intent of the PC when using that line. For example, the Sarcastic Tree has a handful of paraphrases that sound in a specific way, but when you click them, you realize that they are... well, sarcastic.

And the hearts are there to prevent ninjamancing. There are other ways to continue a romance than simply spamming them, though you do need them to start one, I believe.

Yep, gotta disagree with OP.

Though I do think that each icon could be better documented as to what they imply.  DA2's documentation was threadbare in this respect and it really ought to be something that significant effort is put into.  I'm talking a paragraph explaining each, with examples.  The icons, as part of the dialogue system, are as big a part of how the player interacts with the game as anything else in the game. 

This wasn't just an issue with vagueness, as in "what does this icon mean?"  But also there was additional confusion introduced with things like the star-shaped icons, which indicated that some previous action resulted in this option being available.  The player has no idea in that circumstance what they did to unlock that option nor what selecting it will entail.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[Cultist]

The whole icon system could be removed and replaced by simple [Sarcasm],[Irony],[Threat] - the difference is that text addition have unlimited flexibility and can describe EVERY intent, disposition, opinion etc. you wish. And it is not misleading.

Modifié par Cultist, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Dhiro]

Cultist wrote...

The whole icon system could be removed and replaced by simple [Sarcasm],[Irony],[Threat] - the difference is that text addition have unlimited flexibility and can describe EVERY intent, disposition, opinion etc. you wish. And it is not misleading.

That's some food for thought. Hopefully the new engine will give BioWare a better way to explain the options to the players. With luck we may even have a "show line on mouse-over" option or something.

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

The problem I had with the dialogue wheel was that most of the time what I chose to say is not what came out of my PC's mouth. Something usually totally different than what I thought it would be came out. Sometimes it left me with an answer that I, as the player, did not mean or wasn't what I wanted said since the selection was different.

[Maria Caliban]

Alternatively, they could remove the paraphrase and icon, and leave one word intent indicators.

[Crowlover]

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I do see you point about how the icons dumbing things down.

Then again, I'm not exactly sure the Viconia example is much better, from what you describe (I never romanced anyone in BG2) it sounds like a 'conversation puzzle' where you're trying to find the 'one' right dialogue option amongst a sea of duds. Yes the player is thinking about it more, but it still sort of marginalizes the notion of 'talking'.

Maybe if it were a combination of the two: An obvious marked flirt option followed by a set of unmarked conversation options. (I.e. let them know your interested, and then tell them something they want to hear).

Actually that doesn't sound much better either, but I've already run out of ideas.

[Maria Caliban]

BG 2 romances could be a minefield.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BG 2 romances could be a minefield.

BG2 romances were a minefield. Completing them had very few actual paths, and they were fraught with romance-ending choices along the way.

[ThisIsZad]

Dhiro wrote...

The icons are there to clarify the intent of the PC when using that line. For example, the Sarcastic Tree has a handful of paraphrases that sound in a specific way, but when you click them, you realize that they are... well, sarcastic.

And the hearts are there to prevent ninjamancing. There are other ways to continue a romance than simply spamming them, though you do need them to start one, I believe.

YESH, KEEP THE ICONS!!!

Like I don't want to end up mistakenly flirt with someone when my intention was being sarcastic...

Modifié par ThisIsZad, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Lenimph]

I disagree and propose we replace the icons with the rage faces

[Olmerto]

Disagree 100% with the OP. Conversation icons are meaningful and helpful for numerous RP purposes. Stay the course Bioware!

[Zjarcal]

Lenimph wrote...

I disagree and propose we replace the icons with the rage faces

+1

[SeptimusMagistos]

The icons helped clarify what tone we wanted Hawke to take.

It's not supposed to be a guessing game. It's a decision over what approach we want to take to the conversation. Anything that helps with that is welcome. Especially the heart icon. It really helped avoid accidentally romanicing someone.

[Lenimph]

Zjarcal wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

I disagree and propose we replace the icons with the rage faces

+1

Don't you mean  

[Giltspur]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BG 2 romances could be a minefield.

BG2 romances were a minefield.  But I'd rather them not get rid of the mines.  I think romances already had two issues and that the heart icon adding a third issue and solve the first two in an unsatisfying way.

Pre-DA2 Romance Issues

1. You say something weird to Silk Fox or Viconia and then the romance mysteriously, silently ends.  Is the romance over?  Is it just a long time until she has something else to say?  What?!!  And so you see forum posts asking if they need to reload a previous save, if this is normal and you have all these romance faq's people write.
2. Ninjamancing.  You say something benign and you have accidental love.  This has been overreported in that you don't just fall into bed with Zevran.  But I did get a distressingly hurt Zevran in one game for reasons that felt pretty random.

The heart adds this issue.

3. Follow heart for love.  It doesn't really feel interactive if the game handholds you to your destination.  And the heart icon felt like that.  No, you didn't have to always use it but there was a pressure to and it was always there, a shining pink beacon of passivity.

It did pretty much eliminate problems 1 and 2 but, I think, at too great a cost given 3 seems worse than 2 and possibly even 1.

I'm not sure how big a deal 2 really is.  But it seems you could fix 1 without using a heart icon--giving people second chances.  In other words, the mines are still there, but they don't kill you.  They just take off the HP.  But you can see the explosion (Viconia throwing something at you) and have time to adjust your path.  

There we go, I brought it back to minefields. 

And now to get more towards the OP.  At any rate, I agree about removing the heart icon I think.  I've seen some suggestion that maybe the heart icon is intended to mean "flirt' or "cheesy line" going forward as opposed to "beep, beep, beep, this way for love, come on through".  As for the other icons, well, I'm not sure removing the icons gets you anything.  Not I didn't see them as entirely successful.  But maybe it's a matter of focusing on more than just tone in conversation choices and improving paraphrases so that information to be conveyed is clear in information-exchange scenarios.  At any rate, I agree that DA2's icons weren't all they should be, but it was only the heart icon that ever annoyed me.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

BG 2 romances could be a minefield.

BG2 romances were a minefield. Completing them had very few actual paths, and they were fraught with romance-ending choices along the way.

Yes, exactly.  So what to do about it?  I'd rather them give you more paths and have forgiveness for those romance-ending choices rather than just giving up and putting hearts along the few actual paths.

Modifié par Giltspur, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[Faroth]

I didn't understand the claims that DA:O was confusing. I thought the options of what to say were pretty clear and any ambiguity of the result felt more natural because what you say and how someone takes it don't always line up as you intended.

I hated DA2 dialogue wheel and I completely agree they could simply remove any indication of what is going to be said and simply leave it with
Be nice
Be mean
Be silly
Flirt

There was absolutely no thought required when it's evident exactly what is going to be said and how they will respond to it.

Honestly, though, I didn't feel Hawke was my character and I doubt DA3 will be my character. The Warden was MY character. Reading through the forums, I read so many people who played through DA:O with same results as me, yet their described view of their Warden during various decisions, even when the same as my decisions, often were greatly varied. I didn't see as many different interpretations of peoples' Hawke as their Wardens.

I attribute it to DA2 was a voice acted protagonist of Bioware's and we were simply watching the interactive movie, not truly becoming a part of it. I know some felt the voice acting and dialogue wheel brought Hawke to life more, but I'm not one of them.

I don't need to relate to the main character, I need to feel like the main character is MY character; as though it's me in this tale and my discussions with friends and people I meet don't simplify into "be nice, be silly, be mean"

In Origins, my Warden took the moral high ground most of the time and Morrigan didn't approve, yet she still fell in love with him.  Did I simply go up and say what she wanted to hear to make it happen? No, it was a combination of giving her gifts, saying things she agreed with, comforting her when the option was there and made sense, or showing a firm commitment to my convictions taking a stand against hers.  I still remember being amused when suggesting she could be the first one we sacrifice to make golems resulted in her not only backing down from disagreeing with me, but raising her view of me as well.

Modifié par Faroth, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[Zjarcal]

Lenimph wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

I disagree and propose we replace the icons with the rage faces

+1

Don't you mean  

Ok, here's how it should work...

"Care to have some girly fun?"

PC:  

"I dare you to face me in battle!"

PC:

"Wanna help me bomb the Chantry?"

PC:

After bombing the Chantry...

PC: 

Now tell me that isn't brilliant?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Il Divo]

Giltspur wrote...

Yes, exactly.  So what to do about it?  I'd rather them give you more paths and have forgiveness for those romance-ending choices rather than just giving up and putting hearts along the few actual paths.

For one, I'd like to see Bioware give relationships the opportunity to "fight". There are some things you could say in real life that would immediately cause your significant other to break up with you, but then there's other lines which might cause the two of you to have a bit of a falling out. I'd like to see Bioware focus on the latter a bit more.

[King Cousland]

I agree. The main problem I have with conversation icons is that they refuse to allow me to define my character beyond three very narrow, very clichéd and shallow personalities. I could tell people that my Warden was a womanising, politically ambitious but friendly and good-natured warrior. I could only tell people that my Hawke was an angry mage however.

I don't mind the dialogue wheel as such (though I believe it desperately needs to be expanded to include more than three response slots) but the personality icons should be scrapped all together. I'd like my character to respond based on the situation they are in, not based on which symbol I've clicked the most.

On the issue of the much-maligned flirt icon, I generally agree. I've seen suggestions that it could be kept, but you may have some characters who pull an Aveline and don't respond positively (or not at all). This however, simply does not get around the fact it is a dumbed down, "Press here to bang" (to put it crudely) button. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:27 .

[hoorayforicecream]

It was even worse when I said something to Sky and it turned off my Silk Fox romance. That's the ninjamancing problem. I chose something I thought was completely reasonable, and my selected romance ended without telling me. It was quite frustrating.

I'm not really sure how to go about fixing something like this though. They've got a set amount of resources, which pretty much means the more breadth of choice you have, the less depth you have. They added the [Flirt] rider specifically to the dialogue options in SWTOR, but to me that's practically the same as the heart.

Perhaps the solution is to keep the heart, but make it more usable? The protagonist can approach any and every follower, but not all of them are going to respond positively. This would enforce that the heart merely expresses intent, rather than "CLICK TO ADVANCE ROMANCE".

[upsettingshorts]

Faroth wrote...

I hated DA2 dialogue wheel and I completely agree they could simply remove any indication of what is going to be said and simply leave it with
Be nice
Be mean
Be silly
Flirt

There was absolutely no thought required when it's evident exactly what is going to be said and how they will respond to it.

As I said in the other thread, it does not do this, you played the game wrong.  

Faroth wrote... 

I didn't see as many different interpretations of peoples' Hawke as their Wardens.

I attribute it to DA2 was a voice acted protagonist of Bioware's and we were simply watching the interactive movie, not truly becoming a part of it. I know some felt the voice acting and dialogue wheel brought Hawke to life more, but I'm not one of them. 

A textbook case of confirmation bias.

Faroth wrote... 

In Origins, my Warden took the moral high ground most of the time and Morrigan didn't approve, yet she still fell in love with him.  Did I simply go up and say what she wanted to hear to make it happen? No, it was a combination of giving her gifts, saying things she agreed with, comforting her when the option was there and made sense, or showing a firm commitment to my convictions taking a stand against hers.  I still remember being amused when suggesting she could be the first one we sacrifice to make golems resulted in her not only backing down from disagreeing with me, but raising her view of me as well.

Wait.

Wait.

Did you seriously cite gift spam as a plus?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .