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Remove conversation icons


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#26
Zjarcal

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Faroth wrote... 

In Origins, my Warden took the moral high ground most of the time and Morrigan didn't approve, yet she still fell in love with him.  Did I simply go up and say what she wanted to hear to make it happen? No, it was a combination of giving her gifts, saying things she agreed with, comforting her when the option was there and made sense, or showing a firm commitment to my convictions taking a stand against hers.  I still remember being amused when suggesting she could be the first one we sacrifice to make golems resulted in her not only backing down from disagreeing with me, but raising her view of me as well.


Wait.

Wait.

Did you seriously cite gift spam as a plus?


I'm scratching my head too... gift spam... a good thing? WHAT?!?

#27
AlanC9

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Upsettingshorts wrote...
Wait.

Wait.

Did you seriously cite gift spam as a plus?


Mind. Blown.

#28
King Cousland

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 Almost forgot:

Posted Image 


Posted Image 

I believe a dev stated a compass like this couldn't be implemented, but it does represent the range and broadness of responses I'd like to see. Surely it wouldn't be overly difficult to implement something similar?

#29
Maclimes

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Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".

#30
Il Divo

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Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?

#31
Maclimes

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King Cousland wrote...

I believe a dev stated a compass like this couldn't be implemented, but it does represent the range and broadness of responses I'd like to see. Surely it wouldn't be overly difficult to implement something similar?


That's a shame, because that compass thing is a brilliantly elegant solution.

#32
Faroth

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

It was even worse when I said something to Sky and it turned off my Silk Fox romance. That's the ninjamancing problem. I chose something I thought was completely reasonable, and my selected romance ended without telling me. It was quite frustrating..


In Origins, I thought I was just being friendly but Leliana started falling in love with me while I was already in a relationship with Morrigan.  Lelliana mistook my kindness for more than I intended and in the end, I had to tell her I was in love with Morrigan but wanted us to be friends.

Sounds more realistic than a dialogue wheel choice insta-ending a relationship to me.  I don't see why it couldn't work the same with a dialogue wheel, though.

#33
Zjarcal

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Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Some of the gifts included can yield +50 approval, and you have Bodhan selling +10 gifts, meaning you can easily get someone to +100 with just petty gifts that don't even have conversations attached to them.

#34
Maclimes

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Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Let me explain. It's an infinite amount of gifts that cost 1 copper, that raise or lower the chosen companion's friendship by at least 1. Soooo..... yeah. It's cheat-mode for companion friendship.

#35
Lenimph

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King Cousland wrote...

 Almost forgot:

 


*snip* 

I believe a dev stated a compass like this couldn't be implemented, but it does represent the range and broadness of responses I'd like to see. Surely it wouldn't be overly difficult to implement something similar?


Too much text... wouldn't be able to read that on console.   I am saying that very seriously with my utmost concern for console players. 

DA2's text was almost IMPOSSIBLE to read on smaller tv's from a sofa. 

#36
Faroth

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Zjarcal wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Faroth wrote... 

In Origins, my Warden took the moral high ground most of the time and Morrigan didn't approve, yet she still fell in love with him.  Did I simply go up and say what she wanted to hear to make it happen? No, it was a combination of giving her gifts, saying things she agreed with, comforting her when the option was there and made sense, or showing a firm commitment to my convictions taking a stand against hers.  I still remember being amused when suggesting she could be the first one we sacrifice to make golems resulted in her not only backing down from disagreeing with me, but raising her view of me as well.


Wait.

Wait.

Did you seriously cite gift spam as a plus?


I'm scratching my head too... gift spam... a good thing? WHAT?!?


I said it was a combination of things.  I gave plenty of the "Morrigan gifts" to the wrong characters through my play through without realizing they were "intended" for a specific character.

As for me playing the game wrong, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to play it. If I wanted to say something to try and be diplomatic or friendly, I chose "be nice" but if I wanted to be aggressive/intimidating, I chose "be mean."  I was almost never given a response that I didn't expect, meaning it was pretty easy to simply choose the personality option without thinking about what the text next to it said.

There's no need to be too defensive on this.  I didn't like the dialogue wheel and I wasn't impressed with the voice acting drawing me into the character. Shockingly, my imagination is better than an actor trying to convey the character I'm supposedly developing.

That said, I fully understand and accept that DA3 will have the dialogue wheel and the voice acted protagonist. It's simply the direction the industry has gone and it's not going to go back, so you can rest assured that when I state my opinion, it's done so knowing it's irrelevant and will affect nothing.

Modifié par Faroth, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .


#37
slimgrin

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Zjarcal wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Some of the gifts included can yield +50 approval, and you have Bodhan selling +10 gifts, meaning you can easily get someone to +100 with just petty gifts that don't even have conversations attached to them.


that's not entirely unrealistic.

#38
llandwynwyn

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I liked the icons but I know many thought they were silly. Anyway, they could do something similar to Alpha Protocol's dialogue wheel.

#39
Guest_Puddi III_*

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hoorayforicecream wrote...
Perhaps the solution is to keep the heart, but make it more usable? The protagonist can approach any and every follower, but not all of them are going to respond positively. This would enforce that the heart merely expresses intent, rather than "CLICK TO ADVANCE ROMANCE".

I thought that was kind of the case, re: Aveline.

#40
Il Divo

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Zjarcal wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Some of the gifts included can yield +50 approval, and you have Bodhan selling +10 gifts, meaning you can easily get someone to +100 with just petty gifts that don't even have conversations attached to them.


Yeah, that sounds less than ideal. Posted Image

#41
Ianamus

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I'm in two minds about the icons and the dialogue system. I don't think there's anything wrong with the icons themselves, but I did have an overall problem with the dialogue system in Dragon Age 2 because there were simply less options to respond with than in Origins, especially when talking to your companions. 

Cultist wrote...

The problem with them is that they act like background laughter in TV sitcom, telling us "that was a joke". To clarify that "I will kill you and all your family" is agressive and "Let's talk this out" is diplomatic.


I don't really agree, because in the actual game the paraphrases are nearly always a lot more ambiguous than this. I think that without the tone indicatiors it would often be hard to determine which response would be a ceratain intent. The icons also allowed the "personality-tracking" feature, which was something I liked. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm inclined to agree. I didn't find the icons, as they were in DA2, helpful at all, and would rather not be told in advance how an NPC is going to respond to what my character might say.


The icons don't tell you how a character will respond to what you say, only what your intent is. Sarcastic Hawke's intention is to be funny, but the response from the other characters can range from amusement to missing the joke completely or even getting angry at him for joking at a serious time. The saractic icon doesnt always mean "The other person will laugh and think I'm funny", you do have to actually look at the situation and who your talking to if you want to predict their response. 

I'm not very keen on the flirt icon either, if only because it limits the ways in which you can start a relationship, although being someone who got in an unwanted romance with Ashley in ME1 just by being nice to her I do sort of see the point (although I never felt DA:O was vague, I always knew which options would lead to romance and which would not). Some characters might not like someone who flirts with them when they've just met them. I wouldn't mind the flirt icon staying as an intent, but there should be more variation in how NPC's react to it. Maybe some LI's should actually refuse to ever start a relationship with you if you flirt outragously with them before you have earnt their respect/ become closer to them. 

Paraphrases are soemthing that I never liked very much, as occasionally I say something I didn't want to, or worded something in a way I was not particuarly happy with, but I'd be the first to admit that reading three lines of text and then having the PC read out exactly what I read would get boring and tedious incredibly fast. I really don't know what the answer is there. 

Modifié par EJ107, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:45 .


#42
Zjarcal

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slimgrin wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Some of the gifts included can yield +50 approval, and you have Bodhan selling +10 gifts, meaning you can easily get someone to +100 with just petty gifts that don't even have conversations attached to them.


that's not entirely unrealistic.


Oh yes, that makes it a fantastic feature, especially since it could be abused with any companion. Fantastic.

#43
Lenimph

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Feast day pack was really... well I thought... a good way to give console players a way to play around with the character system. For some reason I really I thought that's why it was made in the first place....

#44
ThisIsZad

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Zjarcal wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

I disagree and propose we replace the icons with the rage faces


+1


Don't you mean Posted Image 


Ok, here's how it should work...

"Care to have some girly fun?"

PC: Posted Image 

"I dare you to face me in battle!"

PC: Posted Image

"Wanna help me bomb the Chantry?"

PC: Posted Image

After bombing the Chantry...

PC: Posted Image

Now tell me that isn't brilliant?



Buahahahahaha epic
REPLACE ZA ICONS WITH THE RAGE FACES!!

Posted Image

Modifié par ThisIsZad, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:47 .


#45
slimgrin

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Icons or no, Deus Ex: HR has one of the best conversation mechanics around. I'd definitely look to that if I was Bioware.

#46
Sylvius the Mad

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King Cousland wrote...

I agree. The main problem I have with conversation icons is that they refuse to allow me to define my character beyond three very narrow, very clichéd and shallow personalities.

It's the voice that did that.  Not the wheel.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Did you seriously cite gift spam as a plus?

I love the gift spam.  Really.  I wish there'd been insult spam, as well.

Gift spam let me have an in-game recognition of any off-camera conversations I imagined - at least those that improved a companion's opinion of the Warden.

When DAO came out, I often encouraged players to imagine off-camera conversations with the companions as a way to resolve the misunderstanding problem.  People complained that they weren't able to go back and correct misunderstandings, and I assured them that they could - but it had to be off-screen.  Then, to produce the appropriate adjustment in the approval meter, you could use gift spam.

Gift spam functioned like a save-game editor of the sort that many employed in ME to max-out paragon and renegade scores, but gift spam has the advantage of being built into the game and being available on all platforms.

I'm happy to defend gift spam.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:55 .


#47
Emzamination

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Maclimes wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".


Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?


Let me explain. It's an infinite amount of gifts that cost 1 copper, that raise or lower the chosen companion's friendship by at least 1. Soooo..... yeah. It's cheat-mode for companion friendship.


It's not a cheat, the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan.It's more a fix than anything

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:57 .


#48
upsettingshorts

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Gift spam let me have an in-game recognition of any off-camera conversations I imagined - at least those that improved a companion's opinion of the Warden.


Now that's a novel interpretation, I actually like it.  (with the insult spam too)

That said, I don't think it's controversial to claim that most people just - to borrow a criticism you levelled at another feature in a different thread - used them as an "I win" button.

Emzamination wrote...

 the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan


See?

Why shouldn't Wynne, Leliana, or Morrigan lose patience with a character they despise?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:58 .


#49
Aggie Punbot

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Icons or not (and I do, in fact, heartily support them), I just dearly hope that DA3 does not have timed responses to conversations ala Alpha Protocol.

#50
Maclimes

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I love the gift spam.  Really.  I wish there'd been insult spam, as well.

Gift spam let me have an in-game recognition of any off-camera conversations I imagined - at least those that improved a companion's opinion of the Warden. 

...

I'm happy to defend gift spam.


Posted Image 

I ... never thought about it that way. That's bloody brilliant. Well done.