173 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

 the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan

See?

Why shouldn't Wynne, Leliana, or Morrigan lose patience with a character they despise?

And, of course, there in lies the problem. If the Warden is outright evil, they probably SHOULD despise you.

[Il Divo]

Well, maybe Wynne/Leliana at least. While there's some stuff an evil Warden might do which Morrigan could take issue with (killing Jowan), her and Zevran are the companions most compatible with an evil kill-everybody approach.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Gift spam let me have an in-game recognition of any off-camera conversations I imagined - at least those that improved a companion's opinion of the Warden.

Now that's a novel interpretation, I actually like it.  (with the insult spam too)

That said, I don't think it's controversial to claim that most people just - to borrow a criticism you levelled at another feature in a different thread - used them as an "I win" button.

Precisely this.  I like Sylvius's idea about it too, but I'm sure most people didn't see it that way.  It was the most jarring if you managed to get Alistair or Morrigan's affection high enough after Lothering, where they're already propositioning or expressing a lot of interesting in you.

Emzamination wrote...

 the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan

Upsettingshorts wrote...

See?

Why shouldn't Wynne, Leliana, or Morrigan lose patience with a character they despise?

This is where friendship/rivalry worked so well.   Of course, some people just want the ease and convenience to "persuade" others to like them despite how awfully repugnant they really are.    Because that's how people work, right?  I hear this works in clubs.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[King Cousland]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

I agree. The main problem I have with conversation icons is that they refuse to allow me to define my character beyond three very narrow, very clichéd and shallow personalities.

It's the voice that did that.  Not the wheel.

For you perhaps. It was most definitely the icons for me however, not the voice or wheel (though I'm not particulalry enamoured with either). 

[MelRedux]

Emzamination wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".

Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?

Let me explain. It's an infinite amount of gifts that cost 1 copper, that raise or lower the chosen companion's friendship by at least 1. Soooo..... yeah. It's cheat-mode for companion friendship.

It's not a cheat, the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan.It's more a fix than anything

Ah, yes.  Just like real life.  I can act against everything you believe in, burn down your house, and kick your puppy, but we'll still be cool because I gave you a little plastic pony.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

And, of course, there in lies the problem. If the Warden is outright evil, they probably SHOULD despise you.

I would agree.  But without a more robust approval system, I think we're left relying on the player not to abuse the gift spam.

But, as it's a single-player game, if he wants to abuse the gift spam then we have no grounds to complain about it.

[Emzamination]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Feastday Gifts/Pranks pack should have been called "Character Opinion Cheat".

Still haven't downloaded that. I'm guessing it's as bad as it sound?

Let me explain. It's an infinite amount of gifts that cost 1 copper, that raise or lower the chosen companion's friendship by at least 1. Soooo..... yeah. It's cheat-mode for companion friendship.

It's not a cheat, the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan.It's more a fix than anything

Ah, yes.  Just like real life.  I can act against everything you believe in, burn down your house, and kick your puppy, but we'll still be cool because I gave you a little plastic pony.

It's a far bigger technical fix than it's given credit for.Since wynne and morrigan are the only party mages (Aside from the pc), If wynne leaves then the player is forced to either respec morrigan as a healer or keep the elves alive to keep the infinite number of elf root for poultices.If the player opts for neither than no access to healing.Since leliana is essentially better for lock picking than zevran (who has next to none), if she leaves the player is forced to respec zevran and go through a second run through of any dungeons with chest they might of missed.It's a huge issue.

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[Mr.House]

Maclimes wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

 the gifts are there to counter act the problem 'Evil' wardens had with wynne and leliana losing rep frequently for performing bad actions which forced players to leave them behind.Vice versa with morrigan

See?

Why shouldn't Wynne, Leliana, or Morrigan lose patience with a character they despise?

And, of course, there in lies the problem. If the Warden is outright evil, they probably SHOULD despise you.

And they won't because you can just gift spam them andt hey will love you.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Emzamination wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Ah, yes.  Just like real life.  I can act against everything you believe in, burn down your house, and kick your puppy, but we'll still be cool because I gave you a little plastic pony.

It's a far bigger technical fix than it's given credit for.Since wynne and morrigan are the only party mages (Aside from the pc), If wynne leaves then the player is forced to either respec morrigan as a healer or keep the elves alive to keep the infinite number of elf root for poultices.If the player opts for neither than no access to healing.Since leliana is essentially better for lock picking than zevran (who has next to none), if she leaves the player is forced to respec zevran and go through a second run through of any dungeons with chest they might of missed.It's a huge issue.

No.

You are a jerk, you deal with the consequences of being a jerk.  Using the gift system to circumvent said consequences is metagaming, though if that's what you like to do, go ahead.

Of course the gift system is a non-issue now since friendship/rivalry fixes it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Faroth]

I do somewhat agree with dealing with the consequences of your actions. I had enough potions piled up by the final battle that I used them more than magic healing from Morrigan.

[Cultist]

EJ107 wrote...
The icons don't tell you how a character will respond to what you say, only what your intent is. Sarcastic Hawke's intention is to be funny, but the response from the other characters can range from amusement to missing the joke completely or even getting angry at him for joking at a serious time. The saractic icon doesnt always mean "The other person will laugh and think I'm funny", you do have to actually look at the situation and who your talking to if you want to predict their response.

On the contrary - in Dragon Age 2 icons give you the result. Sarcastic option is the only little exception here you can guess. Agressive and Diplomatic always return the result, not intent.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinjiRenee wrote...

No.

You are a jerk, you deal with the consequences of being a jerk.  Using the gift system to circumvent said consequences is metagaming, though if that's what you like to do, go ahead.

If you're roleplaying, you're right.

If you're playing the game like an adventure game, where the only objective is to reach the end, then she's right.

One of DAO's strengths is that it offered the player many different ways to play the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Precisely this.  I like Sylvius's idea about it too, but I'm sure most people didn't see it that way.

The quality of a feature is determined not by how people use it, but by how it can be used.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

No.

You are a jerk, you deal with the consequences of being a jerk.  Using the gift system to circumvent said consequences is metagaming, though if that's what you like to do, go ahead.

If you're roleplaying, you're right.

If you're playing the game like an adventure game, where the only objective is to reach the end, then she's right.

One of DAO's strengths is that it offered the player many different ways to play the game.

If you're playing it like an adventure game, then yeah, sure.   But I think in that case, it would be in their interest to min/max approval anyway, and not make decisions that would otherwise cause one of their party members to leave (such as leaving Sten behind for the ashes quest, or conversely leaving Leliana behind if they plan to unlock the class). 

But I'm pretty sure she intends it from a roleplaying perspective, given how much she's ... talked about her romances in the past.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think she wants to do the things in-game she thinks are fun, and doesn't want the game to get in the way.

[Maclimes]

RinjiRenee wrote...

You are a jerk, you deal with the consequences of being a jerk. 

That reminds me, I still need to do my "solo" playthrough, in which I either kill or abandon every single companion. (And yes, it can be done, but at least one won't die until the very end).

How to be a lonely lunatic:
Dog: As long as you're not a human noble, you can kill him when given the option to muzzle at Ostagar.
Wynne: Kill when first entering tower, or at Ashes
Shale: Side with Branka
Sten: Leave in Lothering
Leilana: Leave in Lothering, or kill at Ashes
Lohgaine/Alistair: Kill one at the Landsmeet, have the other sacrifice himself at Archdemon
Zevran: Kill at introduction conversation, or in Denerim
Ohgren: I've heard rumor that if you get his rep low enough, you can fight and kill him. But you can also just ask him to leave. *shrug*
Morrigan: Tricky witch. Can't kill her. Best you can do is not do the Dark Ritual and she'll leave.

(I need to compile a similar list for Awakening and DA2, if possible)

Modifié par Maclimes, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

Oghren comes back in DA:A if you kill him in DA:O, I'm pretty sure.  Can he die in battle off screen?  Don't recall.

Velanna you can kill.

Nate you can execute.

Anders can die but is resurrected for DA2, but you can just kill him in DA2.

Sigrun not sure.

Justice not sure, but he... comes back in DA2?

...

Fenris you can sell back to Danarius, or simply never recruit.

Isabela you can give to the Arishok, but she escapes and vows revenge.

Anders you can kill.

Merrill not sure.

Aveline cannot die, iirc.

Varric cannot die, iirc.

Sebastian you can refuse to assist, and not recruit.

Carver/Bethany whoever doesn't die in Ferelden can die from the Blight if you take them to the Deep Roads and don't take Anders.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[berelinde]

Oddly enough, I liked the "intent" icons. Sometimes, the paraphrases would leave me blinking at the screen in bafflement at the words my character just uttered, but the icons helped somewhat.

One thing I did like was how "diplomatic" wasn't "auto-win" (that was the star icon or the profile icon).

And I did like the flirt icons. After getting ninjamanced by Leliana by not telling her she was a loony, I appreciated the insight into what, precisely, would or would not start a romance. Also, it was fun flirting with unavailable companions. Varric was the best.

[Momiji.mii]

I know conversation icons are a topic where player's opinions are highly polarized, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents anyway.

I think that the romances are such an important part of many players' enjoyment of the game (they certainly are in mine) that I'd rather keep the heart/broken heart icons than remove them. I usually do one playthrough per romance, because they're so well-written and with the rivalmances there was plenty of opportunity to bring some fresh blood into them even if your Hawke romanced the same character as in a previous playthrough. The heart icons made it possible to know what I, the player, intended with what my Hawke said, despite how the LI in question chose to interpret it.

At the very least I want to know when I risk breaking off a romance by mistake, like when I mistake a conversation line for something it isn't or similar. I know that hardcore RPG-fans consider such things important part of the immersion, but to me it just makes the playthrough wasted and forces me to sacrifice precious gaming time in order to replay or in some cases replay the game from the beginning.

For a non-native English speaker like me (no translations into my language available), having the icons also makes sure that I don't interpret something incorrectly by mistake.

In DA2 there were other ways to loose Hawkes LI (Fenris is famously easy to break up with permanently without knowing it until the following act). I ended up deleting my permanently single Hawke because what's the point? I won't ever want to load that particular background into any upcoming game and I ended up hating the character so I didn't even bother with the DLC for that Hawke. If it hadn't been for the conversation icons, maybe I'd have ended up deleting even more characters.

I'm sorry if it breaks people's immersion that they see a heart/broken heart/personality icon, but to me it was one of the best parts of the conversation wheel. Perhaps it could be refined, but I'd rather it stayed than was removed completely.

[Funkjoker]

Momiji.mii wrote...

The heart icons made it possible to know what I, the player, intended with what my Hawke said, despite how the LI in question chose to interpret it.

Full sentences as in DAO give you an even better insight into what you wanna tell them, as "I break up with you" is more immersive than some silly icon.

I fully agree with the OP. BioWare's players are (mostly) no children and as such the dumbed down system of DA2 is a no go.

[Biotic_Warlock]

I agree it did make things a little too easy for convos... It even made romances too easy.

[Aggie Punbot]

Momiji.mii wrote...

The heart icons made it possible to know what I, the player, intended with what my Hawke said, despite how the LI in question chose to interpret it.

No, there are times when you can't tell if a phrase is intended to be sarcastic or genuine. A Warden saying to Leliana: 'Oh, I love shoes!' could be interpreted either way, but Leliana takes it as genuine even if I (the player) didn't intend it that way.

I hope we keep the icons.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[upsettingshorts]

Rojahar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Merrill not sure.

Merrill can die.

Thanks, never saw that in my games but interesting to know the option is there.

[Knight of Dane]

Cultist wrote...
Along with abominable dialogue wheel and dumbed down dialogue trees we got various conversation icons to indicate out tone, like Diplomatic, Agressive, Sarcastic etc. The problem with them is that they act like background laughter in TV sitcom, telling us "that was a joke". To clarify that "I will kill you and all your family" is agressive and "Let's talk this out" is diplomatic.

Wrong the icons indicate how your character will respond, not how you should receive it. If there were signs coming up during sitcoms that said "laugh" you could compare it.