173 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Alternatively, they could remove the paraphrase and icon, and leave one word intent indicators.

Admittedly, I thought this worked out very well in Alpha Protocol though certainly not perfectly.  I'd still say Deus Ex HR has done the best.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[Quicksilver26]

with them it might as well be pick a b c or d why bother reading the words at all witch kinda sucks

[Cultist]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Cultist wrote...
Along with abominable dialogue wheel and dumbed down dialogue trees we got various conversation icons to indicate out tone, like Diplomatic, Agressive, Sarcastic etc. The problem with them is that they act like background laughter in TV sitcom, telling us "that was a joke". To clarify that "I will kill you and all your family" is agressive and "Let's talk this out" is diplomatic.

Wrong the icons indicate how your character will respond, not how you should receive it. If there were signs coming up during sitcoms that said "laugh" you could compare it.

Heart icon - they will like you. Red icon - you'll have battle with warriors or threaten the weak characters. Blue - they will like you. Sarcasm - a bit of variation, but still predictable in 90% of dialogues.
Icons remove the porcess of thought from conversations.

[NovaBlastMarketing]

completely disagree with op and will quote myself from another thread as to why ....

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

 seriously what possible reason would it make any sense to make things more complicated an put in options that would sabotage stuff?

you only need 4 main options and they should all be labeled to get the desired effect that you want . paragon nice guy stuff neutral stuff renegade stuff and romance stuff ...

hense why there are also levelsof play from easy to hard ... especially for people who like to play though the story and keep it going with out complications . perhaps a compromise would be if your suggestion was some how connected to thelevel of game play you had it set to

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Direwolf0294]

I don't get why everyone always gets their panties in a twist over the flirt icon. Like it wasn't obvious what the flirt options in DA:O were, or other non voiced BioWare games like KoTOR or Jade Empire. I think the icons were one of the best editions to DA2. I'm actually really disappointed they weren't included in TOR as it would have helped when my character kept coming out and saying things I didn't intend.

Also, can you imagine how many rage threads there would have been if BioWare hadn't included icons and people had accidently flirted with Anders? The cries of "BioWare's trying to force me to be gay!" would have been unending.

[Cultist]

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

 seriously what possible reason would it make any sense to make things more complicated an put in options that would sabotage stuff?

you only need 4 main options and they should all be labeled to get the desired effect that you want . paragon nice guy stuff neutral stuff renegade stuff and romance stuff ...

hense why there are also levelsof play from easy to hard ... especially for people who like to play though the story and keep it going with out complications . perhaps a compromise would be if your suggestion was some how connected to thelevel of game play you had it set to

That's exactly what i am talking about - you want interactive movie, where the most complex action you do is click "Continue" button. I want a role-playing game. Where you can fail, where you can screw you romance, where you can say something that will shun other person from you.
I don't want to play a game I can't lose.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Remove icons, add Deus Ex HR's "this is what you'll say if you highlight the option for a sec" thing to the DA wheel. That way we can solve two big problems that cause people to whine endlessly about.

Everyone wins!

[fchopin]

Remove icons or give us a toggle so we don't have to see them.

We don't need some silly icons, we are not 5 years old, we have a brain so let us use it.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd rather not play with a minefield on an hourly basis.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd rather not play with a minefield on an hourly basis.

Unless the icons are better documented, they're worse than useless.  They impart no valuable information, but the writers think they do.  As such, the paraphrases are written to rely on the icons for context, but the icons don't offer any context.

I think we'd get better paraphrases if the icons went away.

[FINE HERE]

I hated the whole dialog wheel/paraphrasing thing. I didn't know what Hawke would say half the time, so I eventually just gave up, and clicked whatever icon that would give the best result. I think the icons worked with the horrible paraphrasing. I've used this example before somewhere, but:
Anders asks if it's all right to keep flirting with Hawke.
You get two heart options: "Yes." or "It's... unexpected." And one broken heart option: "No."
You click "It's... unexpected.", which I thought would be along the lines of: "You think I'm beautiful?" or "You're just being nice." Something that shows hesitation to believe him or disbelief someone would hit on Hawke suddenly. Something less confident then saying "Yes."
Instead you get: "Doesn't mean I want you to stop."
What? That sounds flirty. Why is it unexpected? What did Hawke say that implied unexpected? The paraphrasing should have been "Keep it coming." or something along those lines.
I would rather spend two more seconds reading the entire line then to zoom through the rest of the conversation, reload my last save and try the conversation all over again. Not that it feels like I should really care. There are pretty much three choices every time in three tones: Good(the blue angel wings, the green leaf thing), neutral(purple face, purple jewel) or Aggressive(Red gavel, or red fist). Okay, you could start a fight or try to bribe someone every now and then, but for the plain conversations? Everything was categorized and labelled. It felt weird. You were chosing your tone, not your answer.
I miss DA:O's dialog system...

[Cultist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd rather not play with a minefield on an hourly basis.

But yu agree to play a game where you can die. Knowledge that you can fail will force players to actually read what other person in dialogue is saying.

[mazariamonti]

I'd rather just have it be like Origins, it allows much more variety in how conversations play out, and i don't feel like the game is insulting my intelligence with every line of dialogue. Never once in Origins was i confused about what my character was going to say, and i was never surprised when i selected a choice by the response of the person i was talking to. I honestly can not even fathom how someone could like the dialogue wheel more than the Origins interface, and yes i did read all of the previous comments.

[MorningBird]

I prefer DA2's wheel. Just because you read the sentence doesn't mean you interpreted it the way the writer's intended.

Example: I was trying to be biffles with Leliana in DAO, but accidentally ended up romancing her.

Now if I read something, my reaction is more, "Oh, that sounds nice--oh wait, heart icon..."

tbh, I think the romances were the main issue in Origins. Usually I could pick up on sarcasm, diplomacy, aggression, but the romances... yikes! I liked that compass version of the dialogue wheel someone posted a few pages back though. It seems more flexible. Reminds me of D&D, actually!

[mazariamonti]

I can't believe you would mention "accidentally" romancing someone in Origins as a flaw in it's system. Besides that being almost impossible (especially with leliana), DA2 is infamous for people repeatedly getting locked into a romance with Anders because of flaws in the dialogue wheel.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Unless the icons are better documented, they're worse than useless.  They impart no valuable information, but the writers think they do.  As such, the paraphrases are written to rely on the icons for context, but the icons don't offer any context.

I'm not much one for specifics, I'd rather dictate the "flow" of conversation than having to guess what happens to be sarcasm and what is genuinly insulting. I understand it's not a point of view that's popular with many, though it's something which greatly infuriated me in ME1 (fixed a bit in ME2) and Origins.

I'd argue there should be more icons, ones which represent sadness / happiness and other aspects which we couldn't quite understand at first glance. One notable example is post-Leandra, where the three options were dictated by blue/purple/red and didn't cover the range of emotions Hawke could've taken.

When I'm pissed off at Meredith's comment, I'm aggressive. When I'm trying to calm down a situation, I'm diplomatic. The actual words spoken hold little meaning to me.

[mazariamonti]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't really understand the argument that dialog wheels are difficult to understand or interpret. I mean, the dialog trees never needed icons or colors, and they were also 1 sentence answers. I think a better solution is just having better dialog wheel options, than having to rely on icons or colors.

I like the ideas of just a dialog wheel with clear, short sentences. Or a dialog wheel with a short description that expands when hovered over. Either way, I find it difficult to see how the dialog tree is so different from the dialog wheel, when they both present the player with a list of sentences. It seems like, maybe the best choice is just to write longer sentences into the dialog wheel, so that they are as long as traditional dialog tree sentences.

I mean really, the dialog tree had about 5-6 word sentences, while dialog trees have 3-4 word sentences. I think we can afford to add a few more words if it is really an issue. And adding words is better than icons or colors, IMO.

Because it would give you a full sentence, and nothing would ever happen that wasn't implied from that sentence. Whereas in DA2 you would select one of the dumbed doun sentences (or just the icon in many situations) and all of a sudden Hawke would say something that wasn't at all what you were expecting from what you just selected. This should be expected when three to four sentences come out of a four word statement. Compared with Origins where you simply pick a new response or statement every time one is required.

[MorningBird]

mazariamonti wrote...

I can't believe you would mention "accidentally" romancing someone in Origins as a flaw in it's system. Besides that being almost impossible (especially with leliana), DA2 is infamous for people repeatedly getting locked into a romance with Anders because of flaws in the dialogue wheel.

lol, accidently romancing Leliana is super easy in Origins.  You just have to be nice/encouraging to her... or try to be by completely missing the tone of the dialogue option you are choosing, which was my point.



I remember, for example, trying to give her a friendly pep talk.  Immediately after, I approached Zevran to see if he had any new dialgoue options.  Next thing I know, I am getting the, "So I noticed you and Leliana are getting closer... where is that going?" conversation.

Anders, on the other hand, I would say is impossible to 'accidently' romance.  Either you initiate the romance by choosing a heart icon, or you don't tell him 'I'm not interested' when he voices his own interest.  It is literally that easy.

Having said that, I never once said that I considered the 'accidental' romances of DAO a flaw, perse (so maybe your comment wasn't directed at me?) but if I had a preference, it's for the DA2 wheel because I consider it to be the more straightforward approach.

That doesn't mean that the DA2 wheel can't be improved upon or refined--as plenty of people have already pointed out--but I definitely think it provides the stronger starting point.

Modifié par MorningBird, 23 septembre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MorningBird wrote...

I prefer DA2's wheel. Just because you read the sentence doesn't mean you interpreted it the way the writer's intended.

The way the writers intended it does not matter.  It never did.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 septembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[mazariamonti]

MorningBird wrote...

mazariamonti wrote...

I can't believe you would mention "accidentally" romancing someone in Origins as a flaw in it's system. Besides that being almost impossible (especially with leliana), DA2 is infamous for people repeatedly getting locked into a romance with Anders because of flaws in the dialogue wheel.

lol, accidently romancing Leliana is super easy in Origins.  You just have to be nice/encouraging to her... or try to be by completely missing the tone of the dialogue option you are choosing, which was my point.



I remember, for example, trying to give her a friendly pep talk.  Immediately after, I approached Zevran to see if he had any new dialgoue options.  Next thing I know, I am getting the, "So I noticed you and Leliana are getting closer... where is that going?" conversation.

Anders, on the other hand, I would say is impossible to 'accidently' romance.  Either you initiate the romance by choosing a heart icon, or you don't tell him 'I'm not interested' when he voices his own interest.  It is literally that easy.

Having said that, I never once said that I considered the 'accidental' romances of DAO a flaw, perse (so maybe your comment wasn't directed at me?) but if I had a preference, it's for the DA2 wheel because I consider it to be the more straightforward approach.

That doesn't mean that the DA2 wheel can't be improved upon or refined--as plenty of people have already pointed out--but I definitely think it provides the stronger starting point.

oh sorry, I thought you meant you accidnetally went through with a romance with leliana. Which is why i said that was almost impossible. Because to "go through" with a leliana romance you have to be pretty straight forward in the end

basically

"kiss her"

"but i thought we were already in a relationship"

"i guess there could be more to us"

"i feel the same way"

[MorningBird]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I prefer DA2's wheel. Just because you read the sentence doesn't mean you interpreted it the way the writer's intended.

The way the writers intended it does not matter.  It never did.

It... does when you discover that the lines you'd say to a friend are the same lines that mean 'I want to loooove youuuu.'

Honestly, if the game had simply treated the scenario as though Leliana had developed a one-sided attraction to my Warden, ending with her confessing such feelings, I would have been cool with turning her down, even with a disapproval gain.  That doesn't happen, however.  A few nice words, and the game treats your Warden as though you are in a committed relationship with her.

Immediately afterwards, I was given a conversation where Zevran goes, "her or me" followed by my Warden awkwardly telling Leliana, "It's over."

Meanwhile, I'm standing there going, "Wait, I didn't agree to this halp!"

Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to agree with this, and my ninja-mance of Leliana happened a LONG time ago.  Like, years.  I don't remember it completely, so please forgive any discrepancies.

In the end, I still prefer DA2's wheel.

@mazariamonti: No worries! :lol:I was confused too!

Modifié par MorningBird, 23 septembre 2012 - 08:30 .