11 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

In Dragon Age 2 as well as Dragon Age: Origins we got the same problem where everyone used only some attributes that amtter most for certain classes. Warriors always leveled Str-Vil-Dex, Mages - Mag-Wil-Vit, Rogues - Dex-Cun- Str.  Let's see Dexterity
Dragon Age: Origins:

- Increases melee attack score by 0.5 per point above 10

- Increases ranged attack score by 0.5 per point above 10

- Increases damage from piercing weapons (per weapon-specific attribute modifiers)

- Increases defense by 1 per point above 10

- Increases physical resistance by 0.5 per point above 10

[/list]Dragon Age 2:

- Increases basic attack damage for rogues by 0.5 per each point above 10.

-  Increases damage for rogue abilities.

- Increases attack for rogues

- Increases critical hit chance by 1% per each point above 10.

- Increases force for rogue abilities/attacks.
[/list]As we can see the situation worsened considerably as DA2 directly linked attributes to certain classes and removed an element of inventing different builds. So now we have no reason to add Str to Rogue or Cun to Mage, only willpower and const remained a bit versalite a they added to Health and Stamina\\Mana.

In my opinion the system should be reworked completely. Even Dragon Age: Origins system was not nice at all
as it resutled in pretty much the same. DA2 dumbed down attribute system to complete primitivism but DA:O still left us little choice than STR-Vit warrior or Mag-Wil mage, just with little variations. So
what i am proposing is the most commonly seen solution - make each attribut provide different benefits for different classes. For example:
Dexterity: Rogue- crit chance, Mage - spell cooldown time, Warrior - attack speed.
Cunning: Rogue - crit damage, Mage - chance to critically hit with spell, Warrior - armor penetration.
and so on
That's just what first came into my mind and I bet someone can find more useful and effective system for attr, especially for difficult one, like Str for Mages, but still it will enchance the system and replayability.

Modifié par Cultist, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Auintus]

Needs a little fine tuning, but sounds good. Consider what each attribute actually means. A cunning mage could find ways to circumvent spellcasting limitations resulting in less mana expenditure. Think of how each attribute could actually be used by each class.
Also, bring back persuasion and intimidate checks attached to attributes, much more realistic.

[Cultist]

It's just an idea that first popped into my mind. They may be far better ideas that could fix this.

[philippe willaume]

yes only because of the nature the map and the combat design a dext strength warrior, even though sub optimal was viable in DA:0 which is really not the case in DA:2.

the problem with direct relation between attribute and performance is that it will almost always promote class dump as opposed to diversity of play.
by that I mean if dex reduce cool down, and cool down is enough of a penalties that it can not be absorbed by the damage output. Instead of being magic-willpower mage, I will become magic willpower and what ever makes the pain go away dex mage.

I think it is better to have perks/skills talent that falls under an attribute.
so for example we could have

A talent/skill called dodge that depends of dexterity
Active until used, cool down 45 sec.
when the opponent strike with a critical, you roll away without taking damage but you will not attack for 5 seconded

A talent called tactical awaness that depend of cunning
Active until used, cool down 45 sec.
when the opponent strike misses you get a free attack

A talent called Block depending under the Strength category
when using heavy armour, shield or a second weapon (magical or not)
active until used, cool down 45 sec.
when strike with a critical, you block his blow taking no physical damage but 0.25% of the opponent damage to you enduerance.

so instead of spending point in attribute you choose talents depending of the attributes like that you can play the concept of char you want.
after that each talent can have 3-4 upggrade that gives you either more bonus or active talents.

phil

[Cultist]

Well, if we'll see Skills panel return, like in DA:O, they there may be further use for it, rather than simple +Vitality, +Combat expertize.

[The Night Haunter]

Actually this could be pretty good. If attributes change what bonus they give for each class rather than just doing the same thing no matter what. Would increase build diversities (not that that is a huge issue for a single player game like DA)

[RedWulfi]

I think the talent trees should be so that if you pick a specific skill it locks another. I was sick of eventually having every single talent.

[philippe willaume]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Actually this could be pretty good. If attributes change what bonus they give for each class rather than just doing the same thing no matter what. Would increase build diversities (not that that is a huge issue for a single player game like DA)

no build diversity is not a problem but diversity in the build is...

DA:2  was tedious because i could only use one startegy effectively regardless of what i wanted to play.
in DA:0 you had two weapons talent tree and that gave you much more options.
the build should be here to support what you the role you want to play, not force you to take a role. 

the problem with changing the bonus of what the attributes gives per class is to balance the realtive value of spending a point in a non directing abilities.

for exemple a mage can boost his strengh (or dex wahtever)  to do more damage with his staff.
Now the trick to make a having 20 in strenght and 20 in magic as playable as having 10 in strengh and 30 in magic. (lets assume that we start with10 in both)

if in both case you cause the same damage out put  but the spread bewteen magical and physical is different it is all fine. (ie +10 and +10 in one case and 0 +20 in the other)

but if we change the to value from witch you get a +1 from 10 to 15 then your strength mage gets a +10  vs +15 for the full magic mage.

in the set up like DA:0 where suboptimal class were much more viavble that will not be a problem, but in DA:2 that will be butt hurt.

phil


 

[snackrat]

Actually if I remember right DAII made steps to making them MORE relevant... which was then hindered by the stat requirements on gear.

In DAO, you spec into your damage skill for sure. After that, willpower (unless tank, in which case dex). What will a mage do with strength? A tank only needs cunning for tactics skills.

In DAII, every skill does something:
Strength: resist knockdowns, staggers and physical effects
Dexterity: Increased critical damage
Magic: Magic resistance
Willpower: Stamina/mana
Cunning: Increased critical change
Constitution: Total health

...then your primary one affected damage and (iirc) hit chances. So, EVERY stat had a purpose. If only the bonuses were strong enough to make them worth it.

[philippe willaume]

Karsciyin wrote...

Actually if I remember right DAII made steps to making them MORE relevant... which was then hindered by the stat requirements on gear.

In DAO, you spec into your damage skill for sure. After that, willpower (unless tank, in which case dex). What will a mage do with strength? A tank only needs cunning for tactics skills.

In DAII, every skill does something:
Strength: resist knockdowns, staggers and physical effects
Dexterity: Increased critical damage
Magic: Magic resistance
Willpower: Stamina/mana
Cunning: Increased critical change
Constitution: Total health

...then your primary one affected damage and (iirc) hit chances. So, EVERY stat had a purpose. If only the bonuses were strong enough to make them worth it.

You are kind of missing the point, though

Invetsing in anychar that is not class directing is not reall worth it in DA:2. and that is why the game play is so boringly repeatitive.  

for exemple, with a warrior you gain stamina for each kill, so no need to invest there are legions of mook to kill. and sinde berserket and vangard really relied on normla attack a point is better spent in strengh or const.
basically what you loose by inverting in non directing attribued is not compensated by what you gain.
so really there no point bothering with them.

phil

[snackrat]

philippe willaume wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

...So, EVERY stat had a purpose. If only the bonuses were strong enough to make them worth it.

You are kind of missing the point, though

<snip>

...this bit?

I agree though, repeated playthroughs are boring. But I don't think necessarily all of that was right on the stats; a lot of what killed it for me was the monotonous battle... and due to the wave system, some abilities were practically useless for all but a rare few, while AoE was king.

I guess they worry if they make them too powerful you get 'God characters' in their respect. For example, mages will resist ALL magic fast, warriors will be IMMUNE to staggers and knocks and stuns, and rogues will ALWAYS crit. Always. And things get fuzzy there.

[Cultist]

Karsciyin wrote...

Actually if I remember right DAII made steps to making them MORE relevant... which was then hindered by the stat requirements on gear.

In DAO, you spec into your damage skill for sure. After that, willpower (unless tank, in which case dex). What will a mage do with strength? A tank only needs cunning for tactics skills.

In DAII, every skill does something:
Strength: resist knockdowns, staggers and physical effects
Dexterity: Increased critical damage
Magic: Magic resistance
Willpower: Stamina/mana
Cunning: Increased critical change
Constitution: Total health

...then your primary one affected damage and (iirc) hit chances. So, EVERY stat had a purpose. If only the bonuses were strong enough to make them worth it.

On the contrary - DA2 made attributes matter only for "their" class. Warriors got no bonus from Cunning, Rogues got no bonus from Str. DA2 denied even possability to make different build  DA:O have no direct link with classes, which allowed us to experiment with various builds.
I think every attribute should matter. So we can have different walkthroughs with the same class.
Otherwise - the whole meaning of the attributes are lost to us and most logical option is to remove them alltogether and replace with autoleveling.